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Flat Black Enamel as primer?


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#1 danman6677

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:11 AM

can i use flat black as a primer before I paint my silver enamel?



#2 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:02 PM

Use black sandable primer. Primer works better as...wait for it...primer.


Edited by Ace-Garageguy, 03 May 2013 - 12:04 PM.


#3 southpier

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:20 PM

I think it affects the hue (tint?) of the final color. may want to sample paint something first.

 



#4 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:31 PM

I think it affects the hue (tint?) of the final color. may want to sample paint something first.

 

Besides that, there's a 'recoat-window' if you use enamel paint as primer. Shoot your color at the wrong time, everything MAY wrinkle. Also, you will have to wait a LONG time to sand black enamel if you use it as primer, if there are any imperfections in it.

 

Sandable primer, no matter WHAT color you use, can be sanded and touched up. This is WHY THEY MAKE PRIMER. It does specific things. Reinventing the wheel and using stuff it's not designed for will only cause problems...UNLESS you do sufficient experimentation to develop your own techniques, and unless you have sufficient experience to intelligently evaluate your experimental results.



#5 southpier

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:39 PM

..... unless you have sufficient experience to intelligently evaluate your experimental results.

 

 

what happens if you just like the way it looks?



#6 LoneWolf15

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:46 PM

Flat black or semigloss Testors enamel is dry within 10 to 15 minutes after application when cut with cheap laquer thinner .

And , yes , it can be wet sanded right after that . Draw back to using the flat ..... It might flatten out the gloss of the silver , turning to more of a semi gloss sheen . To get the silver to really pop , I'd use gloss black as a base and mist coat the silver over top if it once the black base coat has flashed out .

Donn Yost

#7 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:01 PM

Flat black or semigloss Testors enamel is dry within 10 to 15 minutes after application when cut with cheap laquer thinner .

And , yes , it can be wet sanded right after that .

Donn Yost

 

...assuming he's airbrushing.

 

 


... To get the silver to really pop , I'd use gloss black as a base and mist coat the silver over top if it once the black base coat has flashed out .

Donn Yost

 

 

I'd be the LAST one to argue with Mr. Yost, one of the acknowledged premier experts on model car paint, but it's been my own experience over the last 40 years that misting metallics, unless they're thinned and the air pressure and fan are carefully controlled and UNDERSTOOD by the painter, tends to build up a grainy-looking surface with successive coats. Again, in the hands of an experienced and fully competent painter, on models or 1:1 vehicles, the 'misting' technique can indeed make the metallic flakes stand up and "pop". Experiment and practice until you can control your materials and consistently produce the results you want.
 



#8 Miatatom

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:17 PM

Bill and anyone else with good suggestions, what do you use to "practice"? Is there something bigger than a plastic spoon that can be used?



#9 martinfan5

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:27 PM

Bill and anyone else with good suggestions, what do you use to "practice"? Is there something bigger than a plastic spoon that can be used?

Anything you can feel like painting :lol:  , cardboard , wood



#10 southpier

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:30 PM

wouldn't something nonporous more closely duplicate the intended end result?



#11 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:57 PM

For testing paint effects, right now I'm using a couple of short-shotted Revell Mustang bodies that aren't worth trying to restore. I just keep re-primering them, then shoot paint as if I'm shooting the actual model. You can accurately gauge coverage, and pinpoint problems like particular colors pulling away from sharp body lines.

 

Greg Holding posted a 'magic' stripper recipe of acetone cut with 20% water, said to remove even lacquer and Duplicolor primer with NO damage to the plastic. Assuming it works, just about any body can be used for practice and technique-honing. Just strip it when you're done.

 

I still advocate testing the primer and other materials you're going to use on a hidden part of the actual model you're working on, as I've encountered odd reactions and crazing on some of the more recent styrene formulations.



#12 Miatatom

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:02 PM

Getting back into the hobby after over 50 years, I don't have any spares to practice on. Maybe an empty plastic milk container or something similar?


Edited by Miatatom, 03 May 2013 - 02:03 PM.


#13 martinfan5

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:11 PM

Getting back into the hobby after over 50 years, I don't have any spares to practice on. Maybe an empty plastic milk container or something similar?

Anything that you can paint should work, but it should be smooth as possible , but that is not a must either , it just depends on what you are wanting to practice



#14 LoneWolf15

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:12 PM

 
...assuming he's airbrushing.
 
 
 
 
I'd be the LAST one to argue with Mr. Yost, one of the acknowledged premier experts on model car paint, but it's been my own experience over the last 40 years that misting metallics, unless they're thinned and the air pressure and fan are carefully controlled and UNDERSTOOD by the painter, tends to build up a grainy-looking surface with successive coats. Again, in the hands of an experienced and fully competent painter, on models or 1:1 vehicles, the 'misting' technique can indeed make the metallic flakes stand up and "pop". Experiment and practice until you can control your materials and consistently produce the results you want.
 


Well , you just did , but that's beside the point ! Lol !

I left out the one magical word .... Continuous ! Multiple continuous mist coats until you build up an overall gloss , smooth finish , with a good depth and richness of color .

Should there be any orange peal , wet sand it out ! Yes , I know that you don't agree , but , nonetheless , that is exactly what you do ! You wet-sand the entire panel , not the particular problem spot ! Any other advice , contrary to this , is dead wrong ! There are over 100 examples on my website to back up what I'm saying .

As for the Testors flats coming out of a spray can , they too , dry within a short period of time . I realize that you are not the only one who holds to this theory , they are legion . Clearing over debris in the paint and then wet sanding it just doesn't cut it . You can still see the dirt in the finish , it needs to be removed beforehand .

#15 danman6677

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:18 PM

Thank you all very much, Ive been practicing with Fusion for plastics Shimmering Silver without a primer on a spoon then acrylic sealer overtop and Im happy with the result, so I will be following this recipe.



#16 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:07 PM

Well , you just did , but that's beside the point ! Lol !

I left out the one magical word .... Continuous ! Multiple continuous mist coats until you build up an overall gloss , smooth finish , with a good depth and richness of color .

Should there be any orange peal , wet sand it out ! Yes , I know that you don't agree , but , nonetheless , that is exactly what you do ! You wet-sand the entire panel , not the particular problem spot ! Any other advice , contrary to this , is dead wrong ! There are over 100 examples on my website to back up what I'm saying .

As for the Testors flats coming out of a spray can , they too , dry within a short period of time . I realize that you are not the only one who holds to this theory , they are legion . Clearing over debris in the paint and then wet sanding it just doesn't cut it . You can still see the dirt in the finish , it needs to be removed beforehand .

 

IF A MODELER IS AIRBRUSHING, and IF the metallic is THINNED SIGNIFICANTLY, and IF the modeler has sufficient experience controlling the material, MULTIPLE MIST COATS will build up color and leave a smooth surface. HOWEVER, unless the painter is in complete control of the material, MULTIPLE MIST COATS tend to partially DRY BEFORE HITTING THE SURFACE and FAIL TO FLOW OUT, leaving an excessively GRAINY or ORANGE PEELED appearance.

 

Wetsanding orange peel out of basecoat metallic on 1:1s simply doesn't work UNLESS THE SANDED AREA IS RECOATED with color to get perfect flake layout before clearcoating, and in MY experience, it doesn't work on models either...at least not on ALL metallic paints.

 

All I can do is to pass on my own experience, and I don't claim to know EVERY answer in EVERY situation with EVERY paint.  Though it's not my PRIMARY work, I've completed multiple full-scale $10,000+ showcar paint jobs, and I'm kind of aware of what's acceptable in the high-end market. This is the last 1:1 job I did, and it's on my own website. I can't get away with half-baked work for clients at this level, nor do I make excuses. The work has to be very close to perfect.

 

dscn1343.jpg

 

This is the same car just after I shot the clear on the nose.

 

dscn1302_vw9a.jpg

 

I don't complete a lot of models...this is the last one. The Testors one-coat lacquer metallic, when sanded to remove dust nibs, showed definite surface-color variations in the flake. I saw with my own eyes that I had to recoat the sanded areas with a coat of PERFECT flake, and then clear. EXACTLY like a 1:1 basecoat / clearcoat paint job. The paint is about as perfect as I've ever seen on a model. All I know is what it took to achieve this result. It's not opinion, it's MY OWN experience, and I apologize if it contradicts anyone elses experience. All I know is what actually works repeatedly for me.

 

DSCN5585.jpg


Edited by Ace-Garageguy, 04 May 2013 - 02:18 AM.


#17 1972coronet

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:21 PM

I've used Krylon's satin black as a base coat for metallic silver lacquer , and the results were *nice* . Why do I de-emphasise the finished product ? Well , its final coats plus a lacquer clear resulted in an "in-scale" finish !

What subject did I perform this paint job on ? The MPC 1980 Monte Carlo ! Most of us certainly remember how mediocre the gloss was on 70's water-based paints of GM's cars <_< .

 

If one is concerned about primer potentially dulling the finish colour coats :

I always wet sand the final primer and / or base coats ; this gives the primer / flat paint a smooth finish , yet leaves enough of a "tooth" for the finish coats to adhire to .

But , then again , I'm a minimalist when it comes to just about every-thing , especially my artwork and models :D



#18 danman6677

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:50 PM

ok i could use some advise, I have laid down 3 coats of the silver and it is rough feeling, what next?



#19 Skydime

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:33 PM

In my experience, in cans, flat black paint is not a good primer.  However, I have noticed that paint in silver, aluminum, etc. on drivetrain and exhaust parts look a whole lot better with a layer of flat black under it.



#20 Ace-Garageguy

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 02:05 AM

ok i could use some advise, I have laid down 3 coats of the silver and it is rough feeling, what next?

 

This is the point where I would sand the metallic base (to completely level the "rough feeling" or "orange peel") with 1000 grit wet or finer (to avoid leaving sanding scratches in the silver flakes) and THEN attempt to even out the final metallic layout by MISTING one perfect coat. Clearing over the "rough feeling" will leave the rough texture visible under the clear. Clearing over the sanded but NOT re-coated surface will, IN MY EXPERIENCE (NOT necessarily EVERYONE'S experience) leave an uneven flake layout and a mottled appearance under the clear.

 

The "rough feeling" is exactly the grainy texture I warned of above as a result of misting ALL the coats, if you're not extremely familiar with the process, or if you can't overthin the paint and shoot it via airbrush.