Why are there so many iconic cars that have never been kitted ?

[38 Crush]

Well guys I really don't know what to say about your not being able to obtain most of the original cars in this thread. I must be missing something because I have most of them except the Manta Ray. and the Cheetah. But the Cheetah is available in resin. Most of these are not kits but Diecast from The Danbury Mint. I have the California Kid, The Little Deuce Coupe and the McMullen Roadster plus several others. Butttttt....The Danbury Mint is almost gone now so it could be somewhat difficult to pick these up in the future.

[Harry P.]

The Danbury Mint is almost gone now so it could be somewhat difficult to pick these up in the future.

More than almost gone. They're gone, at least as far as producing diecast model cars. The only way to get them now is on the secondary market.

[blunc]

Aurora

that's the one.

[Greg Myers]

Well guys I really don't know what to say about your not being able to obtain most of the original cars in this thread. I must be missing something because I have most of them except the Manta Ray. and the Cheetah. But the Cheetah is available in resin. Most of these are not kits but Diecast from The Danbury Mint. I have the California Kid, The Little Deuce Coupe and the McMullen Roadster plus several others. Butttttt....The Danbury Mint is almost gone now so it could be somewhat difficult to pick these up in the future.

So maybe it's NOT a licence problem ?

[Greg Myers]

But perhaps the biggest fly in the ointment here is market interest: Seriously, how many model car builders would jump at the chance to buy a kit of the Manta Ray today? How much interest would there SERIOUSLY be in a plastic kit of a Bill Thomas Cheetah? My guess is, such subjects only appealed to a portion of the marketplace back 40-50 years ago, and any model builder under the age of say, 45, more than likely wouldn't know either subject if it hit them in the face (figuratively speaking, of course). Just consider the rather limited interest in the original 60's Ford GT's--it was 50 years ago last month that the first GT-40's sat on the starting grid at LeMans--now how many modelers today would wear a groove in the pavement getting to their hobby shop (or wherever they buy kits) were a new kit of those cars were to come out (or say, The Little Deuce Coupe, Kookie's Kar?)

One never knows.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Greg Myers

[Ace-Garageguy]

Everything based on old Fords can be built from readily available kits and parts, should the desire be strong enough.

The Cheetah resin kits can be built full detail with some scratch-bashing. A great opportunity to develop new skills.

The Manta Ray? 'Twas done as a slot car by 2 companies, so there's a start...

or for the really ambitious, how about scratchbuilding?

Edited July 6, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

The Hudsons had appeared many times on modeler's "most wanted" lists, so there was a known demand. The others you posted? Not exactly a loud cry from the masses to see them in kit form.

[High octane]

I hafta agree with Art's comments as the money to produce this kit or that kit is "just not there" at least not in today's market. Model companies are VERY careful in what they have tooled up and produced. Just take what's available and run with it.

[Bob Ellis]

In the '60s, AMT was heavily subsidized by the auto companies through the promo business. When that dried up, the flow of new models slowed down. Today, you have to pick a winner.

[Art Anderson]

In the '60s, AMT was heavily subsidized by the auto companies through the promo business. When that dried up, the flow of new models slowed down. Today, you have to pick a winner.

I wonder if the term "subsidized" isn't a bit of an overused misnomer though? By the 1960's, AMT Corporation's 3in1 Customizing and Trophy Series kit sales FAR surpassed their promotional model business--even when factoring in the sales of what began as promo's as flywheel motor equipped toy cars that were merchandised through hobby shops (alongside their kits), toy stores and variety stores.

Consider also that there were other companies producing 1/25 scale promotional model cars aimed at the auto industry and new car dealerships: Cruver Plastics Company in Chicago, Product Miniatures from Milwaukee, Ideal Models (soon renamed JoHan), SMP in the Detroit area, and the "Johnny come lately" Model Products Corporation. While all of those outfits produced promotional model cars at some point in the 1950's onward, the only promo I can think of that was "subsidized" at the tooling level was SMP 1911 Prototype Chevrolet, which tooling was paid for by Chevrolet, and destroyed by the terms of their contract with SMP once the specified run of assembled promo's along with a supply of kits had been produced.

What did happen though, was a tremendous amount of cooperation between the automakers and the various model companies then engaged in the development, manufacture and sale of promotional model cars for distribution to car dealerships. Consider the advantage of being privvy to what next year's new cars were going to look like, a year or so in advance, not to mention the tremendous trust that had to be established between automaker and plastic model manufacturer, to keep those new styling features confidential until new model introduction time! That cooperation alone had to have meant a great deal in terms of costs not incurred at say, AMT. But in any event, it was the model companies who (with the exception of the above-mentioned '11 Chevy) stood the cost of development of the tooling, against pretty much guarranteed sales numbers.

Another interesting thing is, AMT wasn't in the "driver's" where promotional models were concerned, prior to 1958-59--that position probably had to have been Product Miniatures (PMC), who had a much bigger deal for several years with Ford (producing not only Fairlane Hardtops, but also sedans, station wagons, even the first 1/25 scale Ranchero's), in addition to being pretty much the first (and only -- until 1958) supplier of promotional models to Chevrolet, then firmly ensconced as "USA-1". Again, as with their Ford promotionals, PMC did multiple body styles, and was the first producer of 1/25 scale Corvettes, beginning in 1954-55. Additionally, PMC produced their promo's for Ford and Chevrolet in a wide variety of paint schemes, playing into the need of dealers to be able to show quickly the range of colors and body styles in the days before mega-new car dealerships. In addition to their promotional model car business, PMC had a long-standing relationship with International Harvester, doing promo's of IH pickups and farm equipment in plastic, and a similar gig with Allis-Chalmers, the then prominent Wisconsin farm tractor and implement maker.

JoHan, of course, was the smaller of the three, having to be content with doing promo's for Chrysler, Nash/AMC. Hubley was still even smaller, manufacturing only a handful of subjects.

Of course, the big change came in 1958, when AMT's management bit on the idea of offering their promo models in styrene kits, with the added customizing and racing accessories we young boys went for in a HUGE way when those first 3in1 kits hit store shelves in the late spring. AMT had dabbled with kits before, offering promo's and flywheel toy car spinoffs as knocked down kits, but those had only limited success--they were more "build your own toy car" than anything like a model car kit, and weren't particularly popular.

But, the bottom line is still, from everything I have ever read or heard said to me, that there really wasn't any direct subsidizing of promotional model car tooling--those seem to have been an entrepreneurial game from beginning to end.

Art

[Art Anderson]

actually the Little Deuce Coupe was sold as a model kit even though the name "Little Deuce Coupe" or "Silver Sapphire" was not used on the box. The box art clearly shows a model of the Deuce made famous by being on the cover of a Beach Boys album.

Any guesses?

I have been trying to get one off evil-bay for a while but the bids keep going into the "stupid" range.

Aurora, in 1/32 scale?

[Art Anderson]

One never knows.

Greg, Mainly because it's taken almost 60 years for large numbers of now middle-aged and older model car builders to grasp the appeal of those Hudsons (and to an equal extent, the '55-'56 Chrysler 300's)? Seriously though, were it not for the tremendous racing heritage of both of those subjects, I wonder if they'd ever have had the interest they do now.

Back when we 50-70yr olds were teenagers, you might have gotten some of us to buy a C300 or 300B kit, but a Hudson Hornet--I don't think so.

Art

[Brett Barrow]

I'd green light a kit of the McMullen Roadster in a heartbeat. Even easier today given the remastering and new tooling Revell did to make the Stacey David car.

And the Project X 210 is only a hop skip and a jump away from the Bel Air post sedan.

But hey, nobody wants to see more 32 Fords and 57 Chevys, amirite?!?! :-)

Edited July 6, 2014 by Brett Barrow

[unclescott58]

I'm surprised AMT or MPC did not do the Manta Ray back in the 1960's. They did most every other popular show car at the time, but the Manta Ray. I can understand Art Anderson's arguments of why they might not want to tool up a kit of it today. But, where was it when it was appearing in things like Beach Blanket Bingo?

There is some question by several people posting here that people under 45 would not be interested in a lot of the cars suggested by others here. I'm not so sure of that. A lot of cars that we found cool as kid, the younger crowd does too. Go to real or model car shows, see what interests them. I'm always amazed see people much younger than I excited over cars they could have not seen back in the day. Cool is still cool, no matter how old you are. I'm way too young for the late 40's and early 50's Hot Rods and drag cars. Hudson was gone just before I was born. I didn't grow up with Model Ts or As running around. Or classic Duesenburgs, Packards, and Cords. But, guess what? Just as earlier generations thought they were cool, so did I. Cool is cool no matter it's age. Heck there are things from antiquity that I think are cool.

Scott

[Luc Janssens]

A S&H Gran Torino looks do-able if one designs it together with '72 and maybe add a wagon with a drag race option....but the big question is, is the weekend modeler realy waiting for these?

http://ideas.revell.de/ideas/item/2592/

http://ideas.revell.de/ideas/item/2893/

W

But for arguments sake what could be shared tooling or design wise?

Drive train?

Chassis and floorplate with engine bay?

Buklkhead (Firewall)

Gastank?

Windshield?

[Dragline]

Is Art's reasoning the actual story behind no new NHRA kits being offered today? Drag Racing is very strong right now, ticket sales are up, coverage on ESPN is solid and they even play it twice for those who miss the live show.

Is it really just licencing that is keeping them from being made? When was our last crop of NHRA kits? The vintage stuff seems to be selling. If not then the reissues from present and near future seem ill advised. Yet I suspect they are selling well. How many kids watched Garlits race his last FE digger? It's coming in a couple of months. The Malco Gasser got a revised nose, decal sheet and the whole retro package treatment from Round2. How about the Deals Wheels stuff? I realize the parts count is low on those but they are fussy kits and not really Kid worthy or even first kit worthy IMO. I love them but they take skill to be presentable.

I realize those were reissues and the molds exist, so is it bankable for small runs in this regard? Art? What's your take on NEW NHRA kits and the reissue market..

Bob

[Greg Myers]

Greg, Mainly because it's taken almost 60 years for large numbers of now middle-aged and older model car builders to grasp the appeal of those Hudsons (and to an equal extent, the '55-'56 Chrysler 300's)? Seriously though, were it not for the tremendous racing heritage of both of those subjects, I wonder if they'd ever have had the interest they do now.

Back when we 50-70yr olds were teenagers, you might have gotten some of us to buy a C300 or 300B kit, but a Hudson Hornet--I don't think so.

OK, take that same logic and put it on the cars in the original post. Back when us 50-70 year olds were teenagers we would have jumped all over those if there were kits, just as we would now.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Greg Myers

[Greg Myers]

Did some one say racing heritage ? AMT/ RC2 ya still got the molds ?

Edited July 6, 2014 by Greg Myers

[ToyLvr]

Did some one say racing heritage ? AMT/ RC2 ya still got the molds ?

Say, is that a '59 Pontiac wagon in the background of the photo? ;-)

[Art Anderson]

Is Art's reasoning the actual story behind no new NHRA kits being offered today? Drag Racing is very strong right now, ticket sales are up, coverage on ESPN is solid and they even play it twice for those who miss the live show.

Is it really just licencing that is keeping them from being made? When was our last crop of NHRA kits? The vintage stuff seems to be selling. If not then the reissues from present and near future seem ill advised. Yet I suspect they are selling well. How many kids watched Garlits race his last FE digger? It's coming in a couple of months. The Malco Gasser got a revised nose, decal sheet and the whole retro package treatment from Round2. How about the Deals Wheels stuff? I realize the parts count is low on those but they are fussy kits and not really Kid worthy or even first kit worthy IMO. I love them but they take skill to be presentable.

I realize those were reissues and the molds exist, so is it bankable for small runs in this regard? Art? What's your take on NEW NHRA kits and the reissue market..

Bob

Unfortunately, I suspect that just about any current race car of today, save for say perhaps Nascar, is risking producing a "one hit wonder", meaning that once a particular year/version is kitted, then what?

Of course, there's also the matter of licensing with regard to any race car: Realize that not only will this be a consideration with regard to the driver (for a top-flight race driver, his name and/or face bring in a ton more money than he might get in salary from the car owner or even prize money!), but also the chassis builder, engine builder (who did the castings for that engine?), possibly most (if not all) the major speed equipment makers whose products are on the particular car being modeled, wheel manufacturer, tire company--then the major sponsors, PLUS all the accessory sponsors whose logo's appear on the real car--NOW, that can add up to some serious expenses, believe me (at least NASCAR licenses--or at least used to--the entire required accessory decal package, which is mandatory to be placed, in a set layout, on every Cup or GN car). Add to this that while individual accessory part mfr's may be willing to let a race car owner place their decals on the car, even next to that of some other mfr whom they have no love for whatsoever--on a model or toy, they can, and have in my experience, FLATLY refused the use of their decal if "Manufacturer X's" logo is to be on that model body decal sheet! All of this relates to potential new model kit subjects, but also is a big part of the equation for a potential reissue of an existing tool, for which the sales potential almost always is considerably less than the first runs of that kit when it was new. In addition, the smaller the production run, the higher the per-unit costs associated with it, due to production set up costs, tooling repairs and maintenance, all the way down to new box art etc., and of course, the ever present licensing hungry bear.

Last, there is the marketplace itself to consider: While there are probably several million model car builders currently active in the US these days, judging from the offerings of the various companies producing kits that are sold in this country, how many are race car builders, and of those, how many are drag racing enthusiasts, and then of those, how many are Top Fuel Funny Cars or TF Dragster enthusiasts (to the point of building those sorts of cars)? I do attend several model car contests, all of them at least a day trip from home (including Classic Plastic and NNL-East, both of which are hundreds of miles away from here), and my observation has been, for literally years now, that race cars as a general, all-encompassing category often are rather scarce on the tables, compared to models built of streetable civilian cars and pickup trucks, of all categories, styles and types. Now that has to be for a reason--certainly the supply/general availability of all race car models--but also a matter of interest areas. 30 years ago the last week of this coming January (2015) will be the 30th anniversary of the announcement by Revell of their model kit of Garlits' Swamp Rat XXX--has there been a new kit of a current for the day Top Fueler since then? If not, why not? I would submit that sales history spreads doubt on the part of not only model companies, but also the wholesale/retail buyers who are, in fact, the customers of model kit companies, the first tier of people they have to please. And all of those can be a collective tough nut to crack.

Art

[Harry P.]

So then how did funny car and TF dragster kits sell so well in the 70s and 80s? A ton of big name FCs and dragsters were kitted, all with full decal sheets. I assume licensing was then, as now, in force.

So what has changed so dramatically from the days when we had new kits of the Garlits dragsters, the Chi-Town Hustler, Gene Snow's Rambunctious, the Blue Max, and on and on and on?

They could (and did) do it then. Why can't they do it now? Is it really a mater of that much less interest in such kits?

[38 Crush]

More than almost gone. They're gone, at least as far as producing diecast model cars. The only way to get them now is on the secondary market.

Sorry Harry, But there is still one more to go. Danbury is still offering a '35 or '36 Ford stocker in 1/16th scale and that's it, no more !! I'm still trying to understand why? Must have been extra parts

[Harry P.]

Sorry Harry, But there is still one more to go. Danbury is still offering a '35 or '36 Ford stocker ...

Check their website. "We're sorry, this product is no longer available."

[38 Crush]

Check their website. "We're sorry, this product is no longer available."

OPPS !!!!! BUT they did send me a flyer!!! My bad

[Harry P.]

I got the flyer, too, but quite a while ago. DM is now officially out of the diecast model car business.