Jantrix Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 1. This is not a rant. Rather an honest question.2. It's meant for those guys that do a lot of building with soldered brass and turned aluminum.What is the draw of working with metal? We have a lot of guys here that show what magical things you can do with styrene stock, completely scratch building entire vehicles. Plastic is easy to work with. It glues well. It cuts, scribes, bends, very easily. Anything built from metal can be built in styrene in a fraction of the time, with a minimum of equipment.So. To all you masters of the soldering irons, lathes, and metal brakes, whats the draw? Why work in a medium so difficult to work with? Not to mention, it looks so good in most instances it seems a shame to paint it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Haigwood Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I like to use metal tubing for headers, tail pipes and carb intakes because the thin walls make for a more realistic look.I sometimes put tubing within tubing to make glass packs, shocks and distributors. Brass will bend a bit easier without cracking but aluminum has the right finish color and you can leave it as it is or polish it to a almost chrome look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoparWoman Jamie Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I like to use brass at times over plastic & styrene as brass holds shape better then plastic & styrene. But building with brass can slow ya down at times unlike with styrene where you don't need heat an you can move along at a good pace. Plus with brass, it doesn't warp to much. I like to work both things at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Two reasons for me to use metal for models. One, the strength is vastly superior to styrene. I used to build brass tubular slot-car chassis many (many many) years ago, and you just couldn't do it with any other material...though I did experiment with a real monocoque styrene chassis with promising results. Machining round parts...wheels, tanks, pulleys, etc. is a natural in aluminum, as noted. Right color. Polish it, it looks just like real metal, 'cause it is.Guys who work in larger scales have found that styrene won't support itself indefinitely if used for tube-chassis work, and again, brass is the material of choice (aluminum doesn't solder well, in general).Reason two, as stated above, if real metal tubing is bent well and used for exhaust parts, the thinness of the exposed ends is simply much more realistic than what's usually achieved with styrene, solder, or other materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jairus Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I use both.Depends on the application.Brass is stronger so brass hinges are better than plastic hinges.Brass door panels can be made a realistic thickness where styrene cannot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 1. This is not a rant. Rather an honest question.2. It's meant for those guys that do a lot of building with soldered brass and turned aluminum.What is the draw of working with metal? We have a lot of guys here that show what magical things you can do with styrene stock, completely scratch building entire vehicles. Plastic is easy to work with. It glues well. It cuts, scribes, bends, very easily. Anything built from metal can be built in styrene in a fraction of the time, with a minimum of equipment.So. To all you masters of the soldering irons, lathes, and metal brakes, whats the draw? Why work in a medium so difficult to work with? Not to mention, it looks so good in most instances it seems a shame to paint it.Rob, brass, with an inexpensive soldering pencil, and a Stay-Brite silver solder kit (silver solder plus the flux) is so EASY to use though! And in the bargain, it's not expensive, and far stronger than styrene.Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete J. Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 There are plenty of reasons for working in brass and they all have to do with certain things that plastic is just not capable of. The first is of course greater strength. At the same size piece, brass will sag less for a given weight. It is also more ridged over a given distance. Second is bending. Bending brass to a given shape is much easier than plastic and it can be done cold. Plastic has to be heated to bend and getting it to hold a given shape can be difficult. Although soldering joints in brass may require a little more skill than gluing plastic, it gives an almost instant solid joint when done right. You can also reheat the joint to reposition it if necessary. Brass machines very nicely in a mill or lath. Plastic can be machined but it is very difficult to do and the results are not always as crisp at brass. Last, polished brass is gorgeous! Nothing looks more like metal than metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cato Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Not mentioned at all but true in my case; brass can be chromed - plastic not. My windshield frame, side and rear glass frames are made from brass; then will be chromed.Nothing looks like chrome - except chrome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10thumbs Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I agree with all that's been stated about the positive side of brass works. Plus, in my eyes styrene frames for instance look kind of blurry and soft. The smallest detail is visible when in metal. It's the sharp outline of metal that enthuses me, plus the parts can be made much finer in scale than in styrene. Pete J. above shows some beautiful metalwork, this possibility just thrills me. As Cato said, brass can be plated, even gold plated.Anyways, I'm lousy with styrene and I like metal. Brass is cheap. Solder it up, you don't like it, un-solder it and do it again. I'm hooked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jantrix Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Okay, I see what this boils down to. It is obvious that those of you working in metal are demanding of yourself a higher level of detail than any molded part can achieve. Pete's unboxed frame for instance is something we've never seen in a kit and would be a pain to achieve with styrene. Even when these details are difficult or impossible to see in casual observation. That whole mindset is as alien to me as breathing underwater. For me, if you can't see it easily, it doesn't matter. Paint the kit part, glue it in place and carry on. Also my biggest issue about building with brass, is the regularity of seeing it unpainted. We build models of automobiles that for the most part have not been built using a great deal of brass for 90-odd years, and for the most part have little to no unfinished surfaces. Pete has machine turned the plate on that frame. it looks great. He obviously doesn't intend to paint it. At that point is sort of stops being a model of a car (to me) because it's not finished. Although it's masterfully done, it doesn't look any better (to me) than someone who builds a kit perfectly, but completely unpainted. Again this isn't intended as a rant or an attack, you told me your reasons, I've told mine. It comes down to two very different approaches to scale modeling, and there's plenty of room for all in this hobby. Edited July 29, 2015 by Jantrix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10thumbs Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Hi Rob,I think maybe you over read this brass thing. The higher level of detail in brass just happens, it's a gimme. It's automatic. Pete's photo shows an early model frame, maybe a Ford Model A or something from this era, it will be visible when the model is finished. I like the idea of what's inside my models, even if it may be later unseen. This is though, as you stated, a mindset. I recently made a motor that has details that can't be seen in pics, but I can see them when I look close enough, plus knowing they're sitting there makes me happy and proud.For instance, if I were to do really machine parts in brass, and bend fenders from flat sheet metal like some gifted modelers on this forum, and the work was good, I'd leave it in brass too. Probably. After all, it is a model car. Pete will probably think of conservation, maybe clear lacquer. The difference is, it's all handmade. I like all brass models, you see them in museums. I used to build from scratch wooden sailing vessels, some didn't have the hull completely planked, just so you could see how the framework was really made back then. But it's just a model.You've posted an interesting topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Rob, as you say, it's just a different mindset and probably has a lot to do with what you've been exposed to during your life. Railroad modelers have been building exquisite brass locomotives and rolling stock since the early days of the hobby. I first encountered these when I was a small boy, and was simply awestruck by the craftsmanship, which can be almost unbelievable. Many RR brass models get painted and used, but there's another segment of the hobby that keeps them in brass to show off the work. These may be scratch-built by individuals, or series-produced, usually in the far east. Vintage Japanese and Korean brass RR models can be breathtaking. I would suspect Pete's work shown above is intended to be left in metal, to show off his craftsmanship...quite understandable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Geiger Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Very interesting conversation!I can understand that once you get past the learning curve, working with metals is actually easier than plastic. Scale fidelity is easier to achieve. Parts are stronger. And finally, guys do this just for the satisfaction of achieving it. There are modelers whose work I admire, like Charlie Rowley who achieves amazing scratch built chassis and such from brass. I've often remarked that it's a shame to paint these masterpieces since they are so impressive to look at in their raw state!I have only touched on working with brass and aluminum in minor ways. I've replaced kit supplied things like tie rods and other spindley suspension rods, as well as drive shafts. I've found it easier to just cut a length of brass rod or aluminum tube than to try to sand the mold seams off these pieces. Often they are out of scale and out of round. The metal looks so much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 ... I've replaced kit supplied things like tie rods and other spindley suspension rods, as well as drive shafts. I've found it easier to just cut a length of brass rod or aluminum tube than to try to sand the mold seams off these pieces. Often they are out of scale and out of round. The metal looks so much better.Excellent point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my80malibu Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I enjoy creating parts from scratch using Aluminum turned on my lathe. Although I am not of Pete Johnson caliber, it is really cool to say. I made those pulleys for my engine, as opposed to I bought those pulleys from a guy over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10thumbs Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Ace, I think I've even seen those locomotives before, as a kid in a museum! Smithsonian? I'm an old railroad modeler myself. Amazing crafting skills shown there. Somewhere perhaps these early impressions over the decades have awoken anew the spirit of handmade brass things I like doing, or at least starting again. I don't think I'll ever bend fenders like some fellows here can do, but I just like the brass aspect of our hobby.Also, like guys have already stated, aluminum is a great medium to incorporate in styrene kits. I've added turning metal on my to-do list of modeling cars. Aluminum and brass are great on styrene models. Metal parts just enhance a styrene kit, my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjordan2 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) For amazing brass work on the subtleties of car models, Roger Zimmerman is right up there with Gerald Wingrove. You can see his 1956 Continental in progress in the Large Scale Cars section of scalemotorcars.com Edited July 31, 2015 by sjordan2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 For amazing brass work on the subtleties of car models, Roger Zimmerman is right up there with Gerald Wingrove. You can see his 1956 Continental in progress in the Large Scale Cars section of scalemotorcars.comAnd this week's "Real or Model #234". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scale-Master Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) I work in brass (and aluminum or steel or bronze…) when it is the best choice for the parts being made. I do a lot of fabricating with styrene, but there are some parts that can be made better and sometimes even faster or easier in metal. As mentioned, the stability of metal is superior to plastic not only in larger sized parts, but in tiny parts as well. The frame on my Seven would never have worked (survived) if it were built up from styrene. In fact making it in styrene would have been unimaginable harder to do. It had to be brass, not aluminum, so it could soldered to as I went along. All the hardware and fasteners I make are done in aluminum; stronger and easier to maintain uniform tolerances than in styrene. Some builders like to showcase their metal parts by leaving them in raw finishes. I prefer to finish them to look like the real parts could have looked, sometimes that is raw and other times its paint or a dozen other options.Even if the metal part(s) can’t be seen they provide an often much needed strength and uniformity in scale that can be difficult to achieve with only plastic. Edited July 31, 2015 by Scale-Master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jairus Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Well said Tom G. and Mark J.! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Woodruff Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Great thread! Time to break out the torch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twokidsnosleep Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Why not brass???I am glad some big guns have chimed in. Brass work is a bit addictive and I do agree about the painting; the brass is so beautiful, it's hard to paint over it.I have just started learning silver soldering for brass modelling and when you get it right, you have a strong and immediately stable joint...no waiting for glue to dry. It has a learning curve for sure and the set up, stabilization and cleaning of the brass can be challenging. Once you get the hang of it, it is a ton of fun and opens up avenues for stronger models. It is another weapon in your arsenal along with styrene to build better models than just what comes out of a kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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