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Kit Bashing - The Art of Rivet Counting


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The nit picking can sometimes seem too much, but where is the line between constructive critiquing and over the top criticism?  A response to one of the new kit threads indicated that manufacturers have stopped participating in the forum because of the constant bashing.   I get that.   

I was fortunate enough recently to have a well-respected resin caster chose one of my projects to offer as a kit, a first for me.   I was very reluctant to agree to the use of my master for fear that the resin caster would face criticism for the short comings of my work. Granted comparing a handmade transkit to a manufacturer’s kit offering is not entirely equivalent but I can appreciate the reluctance on their part to expose themselves to the criticism. 

However kit manufacturers should be held to a higher standard.   There has to be a balance between constructive criticism and nit-picking rivet counting bashing.  I wish I knew where that balance point was.

Edited by afx
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That is unfortunate if the companies quit looking and hearing what we want and looking at the ones made from there kits...it gives them a idea of what will sell or is in demand. To me that is bad for business even though they have a lot of expenses in making a new tool or cleaning up one to make the kits we all want.  

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That is unfortunate if the companies quit looking and hearing what we want and looking at the ones made from there kits...it gives them a idea of what will sell or is in demand. To me that is bad for business even though they have a lot of expenses in making a new tool or cleaning up one to make the kits we all want.  

And they have paid attention and they have made what "We" want, and yet the belly aching continued. Nothing is perfect in the eyes of some around here. Yet "we" all get cast in that die.

They have other ways to gauge the market, and petty crying on web boards seems like a dead end. Yes, it starts out like sensible critique and it quickly turns into a Three Stooges movie. 

 

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The nit picking can sometimes seem too much, but where is the line between constructive critiquing and over the top criticism? 

I dont see any harm in giving constructive advice,this is if you actually know what you are talking about. The worst part is people who arrogant rant out about flaws that in reality is correct,it`s like they did not even bother do the research before they come on with the bs. If people arent 100% sure, and even then,try be a bit humble and adress the arguments in a polite manner. Also a thing to have in mind is we cant see people facial expression or tone of voice on forums,so it might be a good idea to question the argument before jumping to conclusions all offended. 

Edited by om617
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Jesse... I am very happy they have been listening to us...they gave us many we have wanted for a very long time...my hats off to them. I am not criticizing them at all...there doing what we asked of them and its great.  Just think they can benefit by seeing what we make from their kits,etc. it gives them a good perspective on what sells and what is possible by combining 2 or more of their kits,etc.  For the most part i think there as curious as we are about what there doing in the future....no gripe just saying.   

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I dont see any harm in giving constructive advice,this is if you actually know what you are talking about. The worst part is people who arrogant rant out about flaws that in reality is correct,it`s like they did not even bother do the research before they come on with the bs. If people arent 100% sure, and even then,try be a bit humble and adress the arguments in a polite manner.

It works both ways, you know.

What about when someone who DOES know what he's talking about posts a critique and is immediately inundated by 'opinions' that have no basis in FACT, called names, has his credibility questioned and insulted, and is finally vindicated by OTHER posters who did the same measurement or research the original critic did, PROVED him RIGHT, but the truthfulness of the original criticism is never actually acknowledged?

The criticisms of kit flaws usually start out as polite pointing-out of a fairly visible inaccuracy, backed by a credible reference or extensive first-hand experience with the subject. It's when the uninformed, groundlessly-opinionated or just plain childish and RUDE defenders of the Holy Model Companies go on the attack that the arguments get nasty.

Go back and actually READ the critical posts, and see where the BS REALLY starts.

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No, criticism is fine and should be encouraged, but, when it starts getting insulting, that is when it gets out of hand. Calling those who are willing to get it, despite the so called flaws, not that smart, then it gets a bit irritating and thus starting a the whole mess, again and again and again. 

I honestly don't care! I will buy what I want and build it, or just throw it on the piles! Junk or not! 

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I started building model kits back in the 50's for fun, and I still do so today. I ENJOY the hobby and if a kit is "off a hair," I really don't care. There are many modelers who cry 'bout EVERYTHING including more kits, when they have 1,000 to build. And having a huge "stash" of un-built kits if one isn't a "dealer," only shows that the person knows how to spend money. To me, some people take this "hobby" WAY too seriously.

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I started building model kits back in the 50's for fun, and I still do so today. I ENJOY the hobby and if a kit is "off a hair," I really don't care. There are many modelers who cry 'bout EVERYTHING including more kits, when they have 1,000 to build. And having a huge "stash" of un-built kits if one isn't a "dealer," only shows that the person knows how to spend money. To me, some people take this "hobby" WAY too seriously.

And see, here's the thing. The implication is that you are somehow superior to those of us who have FUN building ACCURATE representations of things, because YOU don't let little things like poor proportions bother you.

Or maybe the implication is that WE can't possibly be having FUN because we strive to get things near-correct-to-prototype appearance and practice.

For "fun", I personally prefer to build models that look very much like real cars, not warped "interpretations".

But no one in my recollection has EVER said that folks who don't care are inferior to those of us who do.

No one has ever said that EVERYONE should take scale-fidelity seriously.

No one has EVER tried to define how YOU get fun from this hobby, but you are constantly trying to make YOUR definition of "fun", and how the hobby should be approached, the universal standard.

My contention is simply that, to the kit manufacturers, it's a JOB, and as a JOB, it's not too much to expect instantly-visible proportions and dimensions to be portrayed accurately in scale. 

It's like expecting your phone to actually make phone calls.

That is what we pay them for.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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But it's my understanding that all these recent kits,flawed or not, are selling VERY well. 

I suspect that's the kind of positive "feedback" the companies are interested in,not so much the comments made by a handful of posters here.

I suspect some of you here are far more upset by these discussions than the model companies are....

It also seems that most of the people who are critical of aspects of new kits have actually purchased them vs. many of the "defenders" who haven't even seen one...

 

 

Edited by mike 51
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But it's my understanding that all these recent kits,flawed or not, are selling VERY well. 

I suspect that's the kind of positive "feedback" the companies are interested in,not so much the comments made by a handful of posters here.

I suspect some of you here are far more upset by these discussions than the model companies are....

And some here are far more upset by the discussions than the folks who posted the criticisms in the first place are upset by the inaccuracies.

I've already bought one of the Revell '29 Fords I criticized the port-spacing on, and I already have plans in the works to use up several others.

Thing is, I'd have bought SEVERAL more just to get the nailheads...IF they had been right.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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I can see both sides of this. I am quite meticulous in certain aspects of my life. For me personally model building is not really one of them. I can understand wanting proportions correct. I also think kits should be a fairly accurate depiction of the real thing. That being said, I'm pretty content building out of the box for the most part. I spend very little time on research. I usually just check photos for color choices and general interior and underhood configurations. I'm generally happy with my builds, warts and all. As for criticism, kit reviews probably need some from time to time. As for other modelers work, only if it's invited. Still, keep it constructive, not insulting. We post on here to share with each other. There is no obligation to comment on every post. We all enjoy this hobby for different reasons. I can respect them all. There is no reason to dishearten another modeler by tearing apart something they are proud of. 

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For me, it is when it goes from objective fact based comment "the xyz is a 2" scale inches too long and needs to be trimmed back 2mm". This is something I can use to make my model better, or at least take into consideration when deciding whether or not to buy the kit / make the changes.

 

When it gets into subjective criticism "I can't put my finger on it but it looks wrong" or starts to be based on individual interpretation "this error makes this kit a complete caricature" or personal "this shows that they just don't care" or just gets hammered on repeatedly, showing up in every single thread about the kit then I begin to ignore the comments.

 

If it is information I can take to make my model better it is useful then it is welcome, but I can do without the bashing on the kit and the seriousness of the company to produce quality models.

 

 

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The discrepancy in that nailhead is BARELY if at all noticible. That is what puts the nail in the rivet counting coffin for me. Has life become so unimportant and people so jaded that something like that is even important?

Point taken, Lee, but again, I respectfully ask how is it YOUR prerogative to define what SHOULD be important to anyone else?

Once again, my contention is that kit manufacturers do what they do as a JOB, and as a JOB, accuracy in performing that JOB is a reasonable expectation. Period.

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Sorry to pipe up again. I did agree as I somewhat stated before, the kit companies should be accountable for at least a reasonable amount of accuracy. I personally would be happy if they would mold their parts to be more useable as cast at times. In particular I'm referring to the chrome trees. I believe it would be quite possible to attach sprues at points that would not be visable on a finished model.(I.e. the back of wheels, bumpers, etc.) It would certainly help modelers who don't have all the means to re-chrome parts. A little care in design would produce a far better product and encourage more entry level modelers to continue in the hobby.

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Critics buy the kits, everyone I've seen posts the subject is welcome. New tools are awesome, but  Getting the kit to look like it should,,, doesn't always happen (That's a quote from another thread).

Glad kits sell. People here scream you can't build it stock (48 Ford, 49 Merc coupe/woody). Never have seen a stock conversion or bash to stock posted. I bought both, won't be stock, bashing the 48 with the convert and the woody Fords, so that's 4 '48 Fords and 2 Mercs I've bought. 6 kits. On a car I never commented on other than to say cool. 

Del Rio? I posted a ton of pics of awesome 1:1, but muttered about the bumper guards that would dent tailgate, were wrong. Sledsel posted a ton of pics about stuff, has real 1:1 '57s, and was told "just don't see the problem?" I challenged Geiger to see what bumper guard fix would be. Never heard another word. What was fix? Remove bumperguards. I've never seen a Del Rio without bumperguards, It. Looks. Wrong. Could have retooled bumper with no guards and added small plate lights separately? Nope. 

If that's the response to loyal customers' legitimate issue, amongst others, and to stop posting on a message board (they left their sycophants behind too you know), it's pathetic. 

I've got enough kits to last me centuries, but I still buy, and not just with friggin' coupons and whining about prices. If you want to defend the manufacturers so much, go out and pay retail, or 10% back. Wait, no, too late, all the hobby shops are dead. Guess you guys didn't buy enough and drove them out of business, if I follow that logic. Not. 

Getting the kit to look like it should,,,

 

PS, Congrats your master was chosen. Your interests cross with mine that I can tell, so hope it's something I need. Can you give me a coupon? :rolleyes::D

Edited by keyser
Congrats to JC
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I used to build for the fun. I would get a kit and start in on it, not caring about accuracy. Then i discovered all kinds of reference materials, and the guys and gals on the forum, and aftermarket companies with all kinds of cool add on parts. and people who are willing to give advice. I got so caught up in trying to build the"perfect" model that i never finished anything.  I need to get back to that time when building a kit was fun. I know it was my own fault i got caught up in the super detailing, and its a hard habit to cure, but modeling at the level that i've tried to maintain has started to lose its luster. I need to get back to that wide eyed wonder that used to drive my enjoyment of this hobby......:mellow:

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Here's a few thoughts...

Using the term "rivet counter" in the title of this thread instantly makes it a magnet for those that ARE "rivet counters" and those that tend to think having the correct amount of rivets is not a big thing. Now I understand that lives aren't at stake, so proper rivet count is not important to some builders (that don't build armor or aircraft...I'm just generalizing here) but Bill DOES have a point. It should not be that difficult to "do it right the first time...if that's your job. 

Are automotive builders "less important" as consumers than armor or aircraft builders?

Are the correct amount of rivets applied to armor/aircraft kits?

I have seen the opinions expressed that kits marketed by some foreign countries seem to be more accurate even in the same price range as available in the USA, am I to assume they got lucky or that they chose to be accurate?

As has been pointed out before, being accurate does NOT exclude FUN! SO...can we just drop the fun-vs-accurate argument?

The other side of the discussion...

I think new releases will sell well due to the fact that WE ARE ALL desiring something fresh to build or that our "favorite vehicle" has now been kitted and we won't have to scratchbuild it ourselves.

Edited by blunc
fixed grammar
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All I am asking is how is that teeny discrepancy this important? I agree that accuracy is a reasonable expectation, but cmon, the little issues some bring up just are not really that big, and not worthy of heated discussion. For peters sake, sand off the ports and scribe your own, if they are that big a problem, but don't make them out to be like they are major body issues. Now if the block was a scale foot short, now you have something worth the time.

Modify the ports on the heads and modify the headers to look CORRECT to folks who look at a lot of nailheads is exactly what I'll be forced to do...if I choose to even use the engine.

BUT...the nailhead is one of the MAJOR TALKING POINTS OF THE KIT.

The exhaust-port spacing is THE instant identifier of the nailhead engine.

The engine SHOWS as a focal point of the kit, as designed to be built.

It SHOULD HAVE been right.

No "tooling compromises" or modifying things to "look right" , and no "too expensive to make a perfect model" gibberish applies.

2 minutes with a measuring tape would have solved the issue before it ever arose.

Pretty damm hard, eh?

 

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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Most people will never see it Bill. It is so small. The difference is negligible. Is it really worth all this? I get it that more care should be taken, but you really need to get a grip,on what is important. The Revell Del Rio is missing a horn ring. Guess what? I am making one. And I don't have page after page if complaining about it.

And I, sir, don't have "page after page" of complaining about ANYTHING. 

The "page after page" you refer to is answering so many people chiming in and telling me 1) there's nothing wrong and that the measurements are all correct 2) I shouldn't criticize the model companies because they're holy and they'll all quit and go home if anyone says anything negative 3) I should offer my services to all of them for free because I think I'm so great and 4) amateur philosophical psychologists telling me that it's just not important and I have my life priorities all wrong.

If it had stopped with "well, now that you mention it, I see it, but I'll accept it and buy the model anyway", I wouldn't have said another word.

This entire discussion has been primarily about the DISCUSSION, my failings as a human being in the eyes of the defenders, and very little about the FACT of the inaccuracy.

Have a look at Sledsel's thread about modifying the '57 Ford to actually LOOK like a '57 Ford. Yeah, he can do it, I can do it, but we just shouldn't HAVE to do it.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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See, there's this thing called "irony" in writing...oh, never mind.

As usual fellas, a total and complete failure to respond to the issue of inaccuracy, and continued pokes at the poster's personality.

Nice. Very nice. I'm getting a chuckle out of all of it.B)

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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