Ford 427 FE vs 428 FT -- differences?

[Matt Bacon]

Rather than burying this in "Car Kit News and Reviews"...

Can anyone tell me how to distinguish between a 427 FE "side-oiler" and a 428 FT engine in 1/24 scale? The Hasegawa/Monogram/Fine Molds Cobra S/C has both the original Monogram plastic engine, and a rather crisply moulded metal replacement. I'd like to know which engine they represent -- or it may be that they are modelling different originals. It seems that very few Cobra S/Cs had the real competition engine, the rest being built with the cheaper FT. Mind you, if I was kitting one, I'd do it with the high-tune engine, so it may be that the kit represents one of only a few cars, rather than 30 or so...

Inquiring minds need to know the answer... all info gratefully received!

bestest,

M.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Matt Bacon

[unclescott58]

A great question. I've always been confused by the difference between those two engine. Are they not related? I it interesting, within about a 10 year period, ford offered a 427, 428, 429, and a 430. I know the 429 and 430 are from different Ford engine families than the 427 and 428. But, why 4 different engines of the same basic displacement?

i hope I'm not stealing your thread by asking these additional questions, Matt.

[Greg Myers]

"Google is your friend" but like real friends, sometimes they just muddy the waters.

I feel somewhat versed on this subject and was looking for a simple chart to show some of the nuances, but alass, could find nary a thing. 

Check this out : http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/fe-talk/116157-fe-side-oiler.html

Edited September 11, 2015 by Greg Myers

[jeffbrad]

427 and 428 are from FE family. 429 is the 385 series that replaced them, eventually grew to the 460. 430 from MEL family that was exclusive to Mercury, Edsel and Lincoln. Totally different animal from the FE, more like an overgrown Yblock. All the FE's look pretty much the same in scale.

[unclescott58]

427 and 428 are from FE family. 429 is the 385 series that replaced them, eventually grew to the 460. 430 from MEL family that was exclusive to Mercury, Edsel and Lincoln. Totally different animal from the FE, more like an overgrown Yblock. All the FE's look pretty much the same in scale.

Wasn't the 430 also offered as a option in the '59 and '60 Thunderbirds too? Somehow I think may have even been offered in Thunderbird in late half of '58.

[Dan Helferich]

Just to add to the confusion the 427 was really only a 425. With the Z-11 being a 427 the FE was advertised as such to avoid piston envy.

[unclescott58]

Just to add to the confusion the 427 was really only a 425. With the Z-11 being a 427 the FE was advertised as such to avoid piston envy.

This needs to be explained. I though the Chevy Z-11 427 came out several years after the Ford FE 427. So could this be Dan?

[jeffbrad]

I believe it was available in the squarebirds now that you mention it.

[Greg Myers]

See what I mean ? 

[Maindrian Pace]

Never heard of a 428 FT. FT usually stands for Ford Truck, and was used for the truck-only 360, as well as larger displacement engines in heavy trucks.

In Cobras, only FE series engines were used in the big block cars. Some had 427s, and others had 428 PI (police interceptors) due to supply problems with the racier 427. They appear nearly identical under the hoods of Cobra, with the same intake, exhaust, and valve covers.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Maindrian Pace

[Dan Helferich]

The Z-11 and the Ford 427 both came out in 1963.

[unclescott58]

The Z-11 and the Ford 427 both came out in 1963.

The first production 427 from Chevrolet was in 1966. I still don't understand why Ford would call 425 cu.in. engine a 427? Why lie over 2 cu.in.? And wouldn't the press at the time point out Ford's lie? Is there anybody else out there than can confirm this information, or not?

[om617]

The first production 427 from Chevrolet was in 1966. I still don't understand why Ford would call 425 cu.in. engine a 427? Why lie over 2 cu.in.? And wouldn't the press at the time point out Ford's lie? Is there anybody else out there than can confirm this information, or not?

You could order a RPO z11 option in 1963,this was the all aluminium 427,but based upon the w series or 409. 

[Dan Helferich]

The Z-11 was just a larger version of the 409 (not all aluminum) with better flowing heads. The all aluminum 427 was a one year option in 1969. It was an aluminum version of the L-88 engine and was called the ZL-1.

 

[unclescott58]

Doing farther research on line, I was wrong and Dan was right. The 427 Ford is only a true 425 cu.in. The Z11 is a special Chevy W block engine of 427 cu. in. used for racing in 1963. This is not the same as the Chevy Mk II "mystery motor" that was also seen in limited use in racing that year, and led to the Chevy Mk IV 427 in 1966.

[Craig Irwin]

Jenkins 63 Z-11 427 "W" engine.

[mk11]

Basically any decent FE block in scale can stand in for the side oiler. The term side-oiler came from the extra oil gallery cast into the left side of the block to feed extra oil to the crank. Of course, one can add the bolt heads and side gallery bump as shown in the pic for accuracy...

 

mike

Edited September 12, 2015 by mk11

[Matt Bacon]

Thanks for all the help, guys. Looking at the instructions, it seems that the original Monogram engine has the air intake in a "biscuit tin" ;-P on top, while the cast metal version just has a single circular air filter sitting on top.

...so my next question (I'm very new to the whole Cobra game, obviously...) is can someone point me to some decent-sized images online of a 427 S/C engine bay set up the way they were in period? I don't know enough to distinguish between resto engines, replicas, 1990s "continuation" Cobras and the original, vanilla, as it came from the factory, set-up.

Once again, all input gratefully appreciated!

[And a separate question... what can I usefully do with a spare 1/24 427 engine? I don't suppose I could transplant it into a curbside Fujimi GT40, could I?]

bestest,

M.

 

[Greg Myers]

Why not ? 

[Matt Bacon]

...well, I wasn't sure it was the same engine ;-P

Mind you, if I can do it legitimately, my memory of the opened-up GT40s I've seen at Donington Classics is that they have insanely convoluted exhaust headers, which the Cobra engine certainly doesn't! They'd be quite a thing to scratchbuild...

bestest,

M.

[jeffbrad]

They all played around with the true displacement. Ford called the later 302's  5.0's even though they were 4.9 and change. A friend raced a 67 Olds 442 many years ago and when he set a record they checked it with the P&G. It pumped out to 396 cubes , not 400 as Olds called it. That's the first time I've heard the story about the Ford 427.

[Brett Barrow]

Thanks for all the help, guys. Looking at the instructions, it seems that the original Monogram engine has the air intake in a "biscuit tin" ;-P on top, while the cast metal version just has a single circular air filter sitting on top.

...so my next question (I'm very new to the whole Cobra game, obviously...) is can someone point me to some decent-sized images online of a 427 S/C engine bay set up the way they were in period? I don't know enough to distinguish between resto engines, replicas, 1990s "continuation" Cobras and the original, vanilla, as it came from the factory, set-up.

Once again, all input gratefully appreciated!

[And a separate question... what can I usefully do with a spare 1/24 427 engine? I don't suppose I could transplant it into a curbside Fujimi GT40, could I?]

bestest,

M.

 

The "biscuit tin" seals to the hood scoop, making it a functional ram air intake. 

[unclescott58]

They all played around with the true displacement. Ford called the later 302's  5.0's even though they were 4.9 and change. A friend raced a 67 Olds 442 many years ago and when he set a record they checked it with the P&G. It pumped out to 396 cubes , not 400 as Olds called it. That's the first time I've heard the story about the Ford 427.

The '65 and '66 Buick GS 400 engine was really a 401. But, GM had a rule at the time that no GM A-body car could have an engine larger than 400 cu.in. So Buick lied the other way.

[Force]

Chevrolet bored out the 396 to 402 for 1970 but it was still called 396 in Chevelles due to the same reasons as for the Buick.

But the displacement isn't that important, if it's a Ford 332, 352, 361, 390, 391, 406, 410, 427 or 428, if they are FE or FT or even Cobra or Cobra Jet they are all from the same engine family and looks basically the same on the outside with very small differences, the most differences between them are internal.
In our hobby you can take wich FE engine you like and call it what you want as those outside differences are too small to notice when the engine is in the engine bay of the model, the main thing is to have the correct accessories for the time like valve covers, induction system and air cleaner to do the version you want it to be...and the same goes for many other makes if the engines are from the same family.

Ford came with the 427 late 1963 as a replacement for the 406 and even tho' it was 425 cu in they called it 427 because it's close to 7 litres and it sounded cooler than 425, 7 litres was also the engine displacement limit in some racing classes like LeMans and some others, so Ford had the 427 in 1966 (in the GT40 Mk II) and 67 (in the Mk IV) at the LeMans wins, for 1968 they lowered the displacement to 5 litres and the small block engines were used instead in 1968 and 69 wins (in the Gulf GT 40 Mk I).
The American Trans Am series also had a 5 litre displacement limit and that's why they used the 302 and 303 engines in that series.
The 427 "Side Oiler" didn't come until 1965 and was a short lived engine as the FE 427 was too expensive and difficult to build with it's short stroke and large bore, so they redid the concept and came with the 428 in 1966 wich had longer stroke and smaller bore than the 427.
By the way, all 427 and the late 406 FE blocks has cross bolts for the 3 middle main bearing caps, no other factory engine had those.

Chevrolet had the Z11 409 based 427 in 1963 and also came with the "mystery engine" wich also was a 427 the same year, it looks more like the later Mk IV 396, 427, 454 engine but was more related to the 409 than the later engine.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Force