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Painting and paint fumes question


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ok so My question to you guys is why do some people use a primer and metallic or silver coat before shooting a metallic color? Wouldn't it be best to just get a smooth primer finish of maybe white and then your metallic color?. The reason I ask is because I experimented with this procedure and use a metallic silver over primer, however the surface did not come out as smooth as primer. Metallic silver cannot be sanded like regular paints,  so I sprayed a duplicolor metallic blue over it, I could see the rough texture as I imagined it would be since the paint is not going over smooth sand able primer. My question is can I just do a white primer, and then a metallic? .

 

question number two is , I'm really trying to find a different alternative than using these really strong toxic lacquers of spraybombs . The smell doesn't go away from the house as fast, what's the difference between using these and using createx or regular acrylic colors that I could shoot thru my spray Gun? I know the gloss spray cans , enamels, or lacquers give is irrelevant since the shine goes away when you wet sand the orange peel that often develops from painting final coats. I usually wet sand with fine grit , and clearcoat , Polish. That's mainly where I bring the shine on the body. What do you guys think about createx paints or acrylic paints? Have many of you guys replaced lacquers , enamels to use acrylics? If so can some please send pictures of the end results. It just makes a lot of sense to not use toxic paints when not necessary. Lol 

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. My question is can I just do a white primer, and then a metallic? .  Yes, absolutely, positively. A silver base under metallic paint is a total waste of effort and material, accomplishes nothing.

 

 What do you guys think about createx paints or acrylic paints?  I know nothing, nada, zip, zero. I'm happy with the results and handling of the smelly stuff and have no desire to change at this point.

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Hey thanks a lot for your responses, I kinda figured the silver coat was useless. I'm going to use a regular white or grey primer from now on, then shoot the metallic paint. i think I'm Going to give acrylics a try. ;) 

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You may be thinking of the circumstance where people are using a base color under a transparent or "candy" color.

In that instance you would want to use a base color, whether it be silver or some other color.

If you're using a typical lacquer automotive paint like Duplicolor, I agree with Bill. It is a complete waste of time & paint.

I have very little experience with acrylics except to say, I've not had much luck with them.

 

Steve

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You may be thinking of the circumstance where people are using a base color under a transparent or "candy" color.

In that instance you would want to use a base color, whether it be silver or some other color.

If you're using a typical lacquer automotive paint like Duplicolor, I agree with Bill. It is a complete waste of time & paint.

I have very little experience with acrylics except to say, I've not had much luck with them.

 

Steve

thanks for the tips! I am definitely not using the silver metallic coats anymore lol.  Oh and yea the smell is not too bad but I don't want to be inhaling any vapors that are harmful to the respiratory and nervous system.  I can feel the  buzz from being around those vapors. Maybe I need more ventilation, I have a respirator that works really well but that smell goes thru the entire house. I don't have a basement yet. Maybe I should wait until I have a basement to paint lol

Edited by ERIK88
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thanks for the tips! I am definitely not using the silver metallic coats anymore lol.  Oh and yea the smell is not too bad but I don't want to be inhaling any vapors that are harmful to the respiratory and nervous system.  I can feel the  buzz from being around those vapors. Maybe I need more ventilation, I have a respirator that works really well but that smell goes thru the entire house. I don't have a basement yet. Maybe I should wait until I have a basement to paint lol

If you are getting a buzz, then I'd say you need more ventalation for sure.

Try spraying near a window and use a good fan for circulation.

Also check this product, its got good reviews, nice decent mask;

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FTEDMM?keywords=hepa filter face mask&qid=1444138797&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2

Edited by aurfalien
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I'm today's safety officer ... NEVER spray inside any enclosure unless you have a fan venting all to the outside .. or unless you don't like your lungs. The respirator may protect you but anyone else that enters your house, or you when you remove your respirator after spraying is up for death.

 

I'm being extreme but the things in paint are not meant for lung exposure .. and they are probably landing on your most precious objects in the house .. like your previous models.

Edited by Foxer
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The only time I'd consider using a silver base would be if I wanted to block the dye from a red plastic body leaching through into the top coat colours (and I've seen 2K Clearcoat suck the red _through_ a layer of yellow base which looked completely unaffected when it was sprayed first). In this case I'd probably spray the silver coat directly onto the plastic, then prime, then shoot the top coats. Except these days, having been burned twice, I have some dedicated Zero Paints Sealer basecoat which is specifically intended as the tool for the job.

And really, really, get a mask and some extraction. Even with water based acrylics -- you may not smell much, and the vapours aren't actually toxic and carcinogenic chemicals, but fine mists of particles do horrible things to your lungs whatever they are made of...

bestest,

M.

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I bought one of these earlier this summer.  Works great.  Still smell a little bit while spraying, so I'd still wear the respirator if spraying the really bad stuff.  

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B2TESUQ?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00

Me likes that!

When I'm ready to get one, I'd prolly be looking at this;

http://www.amazon.com/Artograph-Hobby-Model-Spray-Booth/dp/B000KNFR2S/ref=sr_1_8?s=arts-crafts&ie=UTF8&qid=1444141573&sr=1-8&keywords=Hobby+Airbrush+Spray+Booth

Edited by aurfalien
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I bought one of these earlier this summer.  Works great.  Still smell a little bit while spraying, so I'd still wear the respirator if spraying the really bad stuff.  

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B2TESUQ?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00

Those are intended for water base paints only.

 

I'm today's safety officer ... NEVER spray inside any enclosure unless you have a fan venting all to the outside .. or unless you don't like your lungs. The respirator may protect you but anyone else that enters your house, or you when you remove your respirator after spraying is up for death.

 

I'm being extreme but the things in paint are not meant for lung exposure .. and they are probably landing on your most precious objects in the house .. like your previous models.

Ditto

If your house is tight,  you will also need to crack a window or door to allow fresh air in. 

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Those are intended for water base paints only.

 

Ditto

If your house is tight,  you will also need to crack a window or door to allow fresh air in. 

Intended, yes, and that's how they're advertised.  But I looked at how many other folks were using them with other paints with no problems reported.  I would guess it's more a liability thing on the manufacturer's part.  They use a coreless motor computer-type fan and those don't spark, so I'm not too worried about it.  I don't use anything too nasty anyway, rarely stronger than Tamiya lacquer.  

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Intended, yes, and that's how they're advertised.  But I looked at how many other folks were using them with other paints with no problems reported.  I would guess it's more a liability thing on the manufacturer's part.  They use a coreless motor computer-type fan and those don't spark, so I'm not too worried about it.  I don't use anything too nasty anyway, rarely stronger than Tamiya lacquer.  

My guess is that its got to do with wiring etc...

So ensureing no bare wires/electrical contact of any kind and perhaps a flame retardant type of wire insulation.

For example, in the network world we have plenum and non plenum cat 5 cable.

I use plenum for in ceiling runs and non plenum for in office runs.  The plenum doesn't burn as easy however its more rigid and costs more.

So if it were me, I'd replace the wiring with ones that are flame resistant and ensure cover any bare electrical surfaces.

 

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I would say it's mostly the fan. Any motor that is not explosion proof in the air flow can spark. I can say that I have had a few computer fans melt down in my computer. It would not take much paint build up on one of those fans to cause an issue. 

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I would say it's mostly the fan. Any motor that is not explosion proof in the air flow can spark. I can say that I have had a few computer fans melt down in my computer. It would not take much paint build up on one of those fans to cause an issue. 

Ah good point man, good point.

I'm going email support about the unit I'm planning to buy and see if its rated for flamables.

 

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Ah good point man, good point.

I'm going email support about the unit I'm planning to buy and see if its rated for flamables.

 

Lotsa guys have built relatively cheap air-extractors and / or paint booths, vented to the outdoors, using easily obtained bilge-fans for boats.

Boat bilges can build up explosive concentrations of gasoline vapor. A US Coast Guard approved bilge fan SHOULD be suitable for use in potentially dangerous atmospheres.

Some kitchen exhaust fans are also rated for explosive atmospheres. Atomized, hot cooking grease can be highly flammable.

Do your due diligence research.

 

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Lotsa guys have built relatively cheap air-extractors and / or paint booths, vented to the outdoors, using easily obtained bilge-fans for boats.

Boat bilges can build up explosive concentrations of gasoline vapor. A US Coast Guard approved bilge fan SHOULD be suitable for use in potentially dangerous atmospheres.

Some kitchen exhaust fans are also rated for explosive atmospheres. Atomized, hot cooking grease can be highly flammable.

Do your due diligence research.

 

Great points, thanks man!

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My guess is that its got to do with wiring etc...

So ensureing no bare wires/electrical contact of any kind and perhaps a flame retardant type of wire insulation.

For example, in the network world we have plenum and non plenum cat 5 cable.

I use plenum for in ceiling runs and non plenum for in office runs.  The plenum doesn't burn as easy however its more rigid and costs more.

So if it were me, I'd replace the wiring with ones that are flame resistant and ensure cover any bare electrical surfaces.

 

To carry this a bit further:  My oldest nephew owns and operates the largest furniture restoration and custom cabinety/furniture shop here.  For perhaps 20 yrs, he used an ordinary 30" exhaust fan in his spray booth (he shoots clear lacquers as the finish on his work), until about 2 years ago, the fire inspector walked in.  End of that fan, enter a proper sealed and sparkless exhaust fan and hood due to fire regulations.

Art

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Lotsa guys have built relatively cheap air-extractors and / or paint booths, vented to the outdoors, using easily obtained bilge-fans for boats.

Boat bilges can build up explosive concentrations of gasoline vapor. A US Coast Guard approved bilge fan SHOULD be suitable for use in potentially dangerous atmospheres.

Some kitchen exhaust fans are also rated for explosive atmospheres. Atomized, hot cooking grease can be highly flammable.

Do your due diligence research.

 

This is not necessarily true.  Most Bilge blowers are just that, blowers.  They are not in the gas fumes, they  just blow fresh air down into the bilge forcing the fumes out vents.  The fans that are in the bottom of the bilge are squirrel cage fans with the motor in a safe place. 

The only hood fans that would be safe, again would be the ones with the motor outside the air flow.  Most fans in above stove mircowaves are that way. The Jen-Air down draft is a large squirrel cage fan, may almost me too much for a small paint booth. 

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This is not necessarily true.  Most Bilge blowers are just that, blowers.  They are not in the gas fumes, they  just blow fresh air down into the bilge forcing the fumes out vents.  The fans that are in the bottom of the bilge are squirrel cage fans with the motor in a safe place. 

Copied from The Boat Owners Association of the United States website:  http://www.boatus.com/boatTECH/articles/bilge-blowers.asp

 

"Venting your bilge of potentially lethal gas fumes is no job for a jury rig. Bilge blower units are designed and constructed specifically for their life in the trenches - electrical components are "ignition protected" to prevent sparking and causing the explosion that they are installed to avert, and the units are built to withstand over-heating and corrosion. However, most bilge blowers are NOT designed for continuous use. They are designed to be run for a short while only. If you run them continuously you may burn them up or even start a fire. There are continuous use bilge blowers available and if you want this (and it can be a very good idea) be sure you get one designed for this and wire it properly.

Bilge blowers are available to move air in two ways - some units feature a squirrel cage configuration, while others favor a "tunnel", or "in-line" design which utilizes a small fan. The type you choose will depend on the space available and on how you plan to mount it. Both types evacuate air very efficiently, and are available in sizes which handle 100-250 c.f.m. (cubic feet of air per minute). The size you need is determined by the volume of your engine compartment (see below). The best plan is usually to have two blowers, one to blow air out and the other to suck outside air into the engine space. However great care must be taken that the outside air intake is free of CO and other fumes."

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Copied from The Boat Owners Association of the United States website:  http://www.boatus.com/boatTECH/articles/bilge-blowers.asp

 

. However, most bilge blowers are NOT designed for continuous use. They are designed to be run for a short while only. If you run them continuously you may burn them up or even start a fire. 

That's the part you have to worry about. The "short while" is 4 minutes.  With some paint build up that time could be cut in half.  I run mine at least 15 minutes for most paint jobs.  

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Createx I have no experience with. I however am using Golden's High Flow Acrylics. I still use Tamiya metallic for my metal paints. Golden only has a Iridescent Pearl (fine), Gold (fine), Silver (fine) and a Copper (fine). Now I do fine them to flake off easy because they are plain ol' artists acrylics, not meant to be used on plastics so I find myself modifying them to make them work.  I modify them with about 25% Golden GAC-200 (which promoted adhesion to nonporous surfaces such as plastic and 25% Transparent Airbrush Extender.  I find the GAC-200 thickens up the paint a little bit so I add in the transparent extender to make them retain their original viscosity. Now they do look a lot better airbrushed then hand painted but I feel that way about all paint. I hand painted an engine the other day with no primer and found that like everything other paint I needed to strip the motor and airbrush it. I really do not like how uneven hand brushed paint looks. When I tried to strip the engine I found that it was kinda a paint in the butt to strip off. It really wanted to stay on.  

I have also tried the FW Pearlescent Acrylics Inks. The first time I airbrushed them, I got a lot of unevenness in the paint. They seemed to stick pretty well to the plastic but I was unhappy with them. In addition to the paint being uneven there were also a lot of blemishes. Most of the due to poor body prep. I have since stripped the body, primed it and I am waiting for a good day to spray it again. I plan on using the Golden's instead of the FW's but if I were to use the FWs again, I would modify them with  GAC-200 and transparent extender.

 

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