The slippery slope of banning donk wheels

[Lownslow]

Safe to say you guys started it

https://www.sema.org/news/2016/02/08/epa-seeks-to-prohibit-conversion-of-vehicles-into-racecars

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

Safe to say you guys started it

No, it's less-than-genius carp like this that started it.

                                                                            

Not really the same thing, now is it? One handles well in a turn, one falls over. Guess which one.

SEMA represents the $36 BILLION automobile aftermarket industry, and had this to say...

“This proposed regulation represents overreaching by the agency, runs contrary to the law and defies decades of racing activity where EPA has acknowledged and allowed conversion of vehicles,” said SEMA President and CEO Chris Kersting. “Congress did not intend the original Clean Air Act to extend to vehicles modified for racing and has re-enforced that intent on more than one occasion.”

Edited February 9, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Lownslow]

so one deserves to banned over the other because you dont like the look, you using that impala picture shows how out of date you are 

this is what Traditional Donks are now, lifts are a nono.

[Ace-Garageguy]

so one deserves to banned over the other because you dont like the look...

No, not because some of us don't like the look, but because 1) jacking a car way up raises its center of gravity and makes it lean horribly in turns 2) bolting on huge amounts of unsprung weight pretty well defeats the purpose of suspension, makes a car ride like a buckboard, and makes it unstable over any kind of irregular pavement and 3) the huge rotational mass of these oh-so-tall wheels makes acceleration sluggish, and makes the brakes have to work a lot harder to stop the thing.

These are big-boy concepts that come under the general heading of physics, and are very important aspects of vehicle dynamics.

In short, going for the donk "look" takes vehicles that were hardly brilliant from a handling and braking standpoint to start with, and makes them cartoonish evil-handling junk.

Modifications as shown below take a car that handled well originally, and make it better...not worse, WAY worse. Kinda the whole idea of the pro-touring thing, you know?

                     

Edited February 9, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Matt Bacon]

Err... which part of that press release says anything about wheels? My reading is that the EPA is trying to stop people modding the engines of their street cars, which have to meet emissions regulations, to create a "race-car" instead, which will be exempt from the Clean Air Act, and then driving it around daily on the roads as well as occasionally racing. You may well think that's a step too far, but it is legitimately in the EPA's area of activity. It's not the people who sell big wheels and daft suspensions who need to worry... it's an entire industry dedicated to after market tuning, remapping, blowing etc etc. I don't know whether a 900+ BHP Nissan GT-R meets current emissions regs, but I kinda doubt it...

bestest,

M.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Matt, you're misunderstanding the proposed rules. It's ALREADY illegal to modify late-model street-driven vehicles' emission-control-related systems. There's no opt-out for occasional racing. If it's street-driven and registered as such, tampering with its emissions systems is verboten (unless the aftermarket parts or systems are certified to leave the vehicle in emissions compliance). Once a production vehicle reaches a certain age (in my state, it's 25 years old) anything goes. Yes, there ARE 900HP newer cars on the street. Are they legal? What do you think?

The proposed rules would prohibit anyone from turning a production vehicle into a DEDICATED RACING VEHICLE. This isn't about hot street-cars. It's about pure race cars, never to be driven on the street.

The EPA kept their big noses out of sanctioned competition before. This is a new deal.

The donk thing is simply a large part of what got Big Brother looking harder at modified cars in the first place.

And in case you missed it above, here it is again...

“This proposed regulation represents overreaching by the agency, runs contrary to the law and defies decades of racing activity where EPA has acknowledged and allowed conversion of vehicles,” said SEMA President and CEO Chris Kersting. “Congress did not intend the original Clean Air Act to extend to vehicles modified for racing and has re-enforced that intent on more than one occasion.”

Edited February 9, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Lownslow]

No, not because some of us don't like the look, but because 1) jacking a car way up raises its center of gravity and makes it lean horribly in turns 2) bolting on huge amounts of unsprung weight pretty well defeats the purpose of suspension, makes a car ride like a buckboard, and makes it unstable over any kind of irregular pavement and 3) the huge rotational mass of these oh-so-tall wheels makes acceleration sluggish, and makes the brakes have to work a lot harder to stop the thing.

These are big-boy concepts that come under the general heading of physics, and are very important aspects of vehicle dynamics.

In short, going for the donk "look" takes vehicles that were hardly brilliant from a handling and braking standpoint to start with, and makes them cartoonish evil-handling junk.

Modifications as shown below take a car that handled well originally, and make it better...not worse, WAY worse. Kinda the whole idea of the pro-touring thing, you know?

                     

You know the chevelle is on air rides right? That being said suspension that isnt actually connected to the car is just as bad and a failure on the road will end very badly, like i said your out of date with donks most have performance suspensions and brakes.

[Ace-Garageguy]

You know the chevelle is on air rides right? That being said suspension that isnt actually connected to the car is just as bad and a failure on the road will end very badly, like i said your out of date with donks most have performance suspensions and brakes.

Man, everybody seems to think they just invented the wheel.

I ran a VW Bug with a Porsche engine in competition in the way way back. I drove the car on the street and used air-shocks to raise, lower, and essentially 'tune" the lowered torsion-bar suspension for street use or racing. With the shocks totally deflated, the ol' bug sat as low as the Chevelle.

Bags don't necessarily replace the stock suspension, and can be used just exactly like I used mine eons ago, with no failures. Where do you get the interesting idea that "suspension that isnt actually connected to the car" has anything to do with anything? Not connected to the car? Please explain.

"Performance suspension and brakes" do not compensate adequately for insanely high unsprung weight and rotational mass.

If 26" tall wheels worked for any kind of real performance application, you'd be seeing them on F1 cars and at LeMans. Hmmmmm.....

Edited February 9, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[iamsuperdan]

You know the chevelle is on air rides right? That being said suspension that isnt actually connected to the car is just as bad and a failure on the road will end very badly, like i said your out of date with donks most have performance suspensions and brakes.

 

Have a look at this pic. Can you show me on this modern air bag suspension, how the suspension isn't actually connected to the car? You may be just as out of date with your knowledge of air ride.

 

Lowering a car, improving suspension geometry, an adding larger brakes will most often make the car handle better and stop better. No matter how a donk is built, the larger wheels are raising the center of gravity. Regardless of how the suspension is built, the car sits higher than intended. And rarely have I seen a donk with upgraded brakes. The massive 26" and larger wheels/tires are a lot heavier than stock wheels, and by keeping the stock brake systems, you now have tiny brake pads and rotors trying to slow the rotation of something significantly heavier than they were intended to stop. Braking distances increase significantly, thus...not as safe.

I'm all for aftermarket, as long as it's done correctly. I don't particularly like donks, or the japanese import scene, but if the cars are built right, then I can respect and appreciate the work and craftsmanship. If a car is built with a half-assed effort, then I can't get behind it, even if it looks awesome.

 

Edited February 9, 2016 by iamsuperdan

[dieseldawg142]

.........

Edited May 10, 2018 by dieseldawg142

[Jantrix]

Exactly how did an article on race cars become an attack on big wheel customs?

[iamsuperdan]

As i understand it, in most cases the airbag just replaces the coil spring. I'm sure it can get far more complex than that, but on most of the bagged cars you see, that's what's been done.

I think a bigger issue than donks are the guys improperly lifting the 4X4 trucks. I don't know how many lifted Rams and Fords and GMs I see around here with massive lift blocks and nothing else done. Huge tires and or wheels and stock brakes. Dangerous. Would love to see some regulations similar to those in Europe. Would put these hack shops out of business, and would help to solve the problem of the backyard bozo. 

[Joe Handley]

I'll never forget the Ram I saw several uears back that had stacked, yes, stacked blocks in the back! Needless to say, I got away from that truck QUICK!  Also seen an old Ford F250 that had a pile of drilled and stacked hockey pucks being used for a body lift (for the record, I'm anti-body lift, period).

[Matt Bacon]

Exactly how did an article on race cars become an attack on big wheel customs?

That was what I was wondering above...

Bill... are you saying that somehow the EPA noticed big wheels and air-jack suspensions and as a result decided to legislate against street cars modified into dedicated racing cars ? Surely cars that fall over in corners on regular roads are more the NTSB's problem?

Whatever started it, the EPA proposal is going to affect a bunch of people who like to prep race cars, isn't it? That can't be good...

I would have thought that the SCCA would have had at least as much to say about this than SEMA, but what do I know? If it were happening over here, there'd be a number of one-make series that would be in big trouble. Today, anyone who wants to can buy a Ginetta G40R (which is a road car, albeit one that's mostly intended for "run what you brung" track days), and upgrade it into a track only weapon, for example. At the margins there are quite a few examples of only-just-road-legal cars that you can mod in your garage into dedicated track only specials. And beyond that, there are a bunch of people who will take a more or less standard saloon and turn it into a rally stage or touring car contender.

So if you buy one of these:

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/lotus-evora-cup-race-car-car-news

that has only ever been a pure racing car, you're OK. But if you buy a fast-road Evora and upgrade it in your own garage to the same spec, the EPA wants to ban it?

What does the EPA expect people building race cars to start with? A blank sheet of paper, some steel tubes, and a set of welding gear? And anyway, surely it's the engines and their state of tune that are the issue in terms of emissions, not the car that they are in? I doubt ANYONE is going to build a racing engine completely from scratch...

bestest,

M.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Matt Bacon

[Joe Handley]

No, not because some of us don't like the look, but because 1) jacking a car way up raises its center of gravity and makes it lean horribly in turns 2) bolting on huge amounts of unsprung weight pretty well defeats the purpose of suspension, makes a car ride like a buckboard, and makes it unstable over any kind of irregular pavement and 3) the huge rotational mass of these oh-so-tall wheels makes acceleration sluggish, and makes the brakes have to work a lot harder to stop the thing.

These are big-boy concepts that come under the general heading of physics, and are very important aspects of vehicle dynamics.

In short, going for the donk "look" takes vehicles that were hardly brilliant from a handling and braking standpoint to start with, and makes them cartoonish evil-handling junk.

Modifications as shown below take a car that handled well originally, and make it better...not worse, WAY worse. Kinda the whole idea of the pro-touring thing, you know?

                     

Somehow I doubt that ProTouring Chevelle will be as competent as my Cherokee (with rear airshocks of it's own) around corners, let alone vs that Vette.  Actually, I think that Vette has been terrorizing road courses and cone filled parking lots longer than I've been alive!

[dimaxion]

I'll admit Ace car Guy has some true points in his arguments . I detest the Overreach our leader(les)s Inflict on US Citizens today . Yet we remain Silent like Lemmings . NHTSB has this responsibility of these issues discussed here . As we see , EPA does it .. the Sheep are happy . . No probemlo . The leader(les)s also arming the Federal Agencies and Local Law enforcement with better weapons than our Veterans and Troops have / had in Afganastan .. No problemo .. BTW , the Dept of Agriculture now has 1,700 Assault rifles and Full Body Armor for 1,100 Agents at the last count I saw . I belong to a Group to Dissuade all forms of US govenrnent agencies  from restricting ANY Vehicle Modification . My 2 cents .. Don't believe me , Look it up for yourself . Thanx ..

[Earl Marischal]

So, dimaxion, you're happy to let a Darwin Award contender build some lethal heap in his garage, drive it on the road, then have it blow up/disintegrate/career out of control and kill or maim innocent bystanders because you don't like official intervention into safety?

Sheesh! Am I glad we have sensible legislation about vehicle building in the UK!

steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

Exactly how did an article on race cars become an attack on big wheel customs?

 

That was what I was wondering above...

Bill... are you saying that somehow the EPA noticed big wheels and air-jack suspensions and as a result decided to legislate against street cars modified into dedicated racing cars ? Surely cars that fall over in corners on regular roads are more the NTSB's problem?

Well sirs, if anyone cares to read the title of this thread, they'll see it says The slippery slope of banning donk wheels. So, the logical implication, seein' as how the OP's initial allegation is that "you guys started it" (meaning of course that people who don't like donks and have been vocal about it are the ones ultimately responsible for the EPA's latest foray into idiocy) is that the banning of wheels over 20" in some locations was the first step on the referenced "slippery slope" and the proposed new EPA regs.

There's no attack on "big wheel customs" here to my knowledge, just a brief look at vehicle dynamics and some explanations as to why donks, particularly sky-high contraptions like I posted, kinda miss the whole point of vehicles handling well, and safely.

There's NO cause and effect relationship established here between donks and the EPA's attempt to regulate race car construction.

What is addressed is the OP's allegation that the one led directly to the other, and IF so, why it might have happened. It is a FACT that the big-wheel cars HAVE brought some increased government attention to modified vehicles.

One important point to remember is that most government agencies have no motivation to actually understand the things they want to regulate.

There is probably no differentiation in the minds of many bureaucrats between a sky-high donk and a slalom car that handles like it's on rails. They're modified, and modified is bad in their white-bread stick-your-nose-up-the-tail-of-the-sheep-in-front-of-you world. Therefore, pass a law that doesn't allow any modifications. Modification bad. More law good.

The End.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

Just for the record, I DO NOT have a problem with the recent crop of big-wheel cars like Frank posted examples of above. I've seen some of these cars perform, and they're no more treacherous than many of them were when they were new...new being heavy, on skinny bias-ply tires, with soft springs and barely adequate drum brakes. Some of them probably handle and brake better than when they were new, and many are certainly the handling equals of factory high-ride-height SUVs.

I DO NOT think they should be banned (the reasonable ones, like Frank posted). No, they're not built to my taste, but if their owners prefer to make a style statement rather than going for ultimate handling...well, there's room for everybody in the car hobby. They don't HAVE to be MY taste, and what I like doesn't have to rule anyone else.

Just PLEASE build things with a little common sense as part of the equation. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Matt Bacon]

 

 Therefore, pass a law that doesn't allow any modifications.

Yeah, but they ain't. They're trying to pass a law that doesn't allow street cars to be modified into race cars. Unless I'm missing something, donks (new word for me today, so bear with me) aren't race cars, they're street (show-off) cars, because as you point out, they'd never perform well enough on track to beat anything, never mind a car dedicated to on-track performance.

Implication the first ==> The OP should be called out on the fact that the EPA's proposed legislation has nothing whatever to do with donks, and even if their interest may have been triggered by modified cars, the legislation they are proposing will have no effect on big wheel cars on the street one way or another.

Implication the second ==> the entire foundation of auto racing that's not the top rank of specially-built dedicated racing cars on racing-only chassis originally constructed for the track  is under threat. THAT'S a rather bigger deal, I'd venture, than whether or not a few self-taught auto stylists are free to mess up the safety and performance of their vehicles with inappropriate wheels and suspensions. 

Frankly, I could care less whether I never see another big-wheel conversion on the road (actually, I've never seen one. They don't seem very common over here). However, I do care if ill-drafted legislation starts the slippery slope of expecting cars that spend the majority or all of their time on the track to meet the same emissions regs as standard street cars or be banned. It may start in the US, but if it becomes law, before too long some EU bureaucrat will be saying "Hey, that's a neat idea..."

bestest,

M.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Matt Bacon

[Ace-Garageguy]

Yeah, but they ain't. They're trying to pass a law that doesn't allow street cars to be modified into race cars. Unless I'm missing something, donks (new word for me today, so bear with me) aren't race cars, they're street (show-off) cars, because as you point out, they'd never perform well enough on track to beat anything, never mind a car dedicated to on-track performance.

Implication the first ==> The OP should be called out on the fact that the EPA's proposed legislation has nothing whatever to do with donks, and even if their interest may have been triggered by modified cars, the legislation they are proposing will have no effect on big wheel cars on the street one way or another.

Implication the second ==> the entire foundation of auto racing that's not the top rank of specially-built dedicated racing cars on racing-only chassis originally constructed for the track  is under threat. THAT'S a rather bigger deal, I'd venture, than whether or not a few self-taught auto stylists are free to mess up the safety and performance of their vehicles with inappropriate wheels and suspensions. 

Frankly, I could care less whether I never see another big-wheel conversion on the road (actually, I've never seen one. They don't seem very common over here). However, I do care if ill-drafted legislation starts the slippery slope of expecting cars that spend the majority or all of their time on the track to meet the same emissions regs as standard street cars or be banned. It may start in the US, but if it becomes law, before too long some EU bureaucrat will be saying "Hey, that's a neat idea..."

bestest,

M.

All agreed, but I'm seeing the attack on pure race-cars as the camel's nose in the tent, possibly stemming from a belief that production-car-based racers are a small enough group to target initially because they don't have the clout of an industry as big as the one SEMA represents.

Of course, "production-car-based" also includes vehicles competing in NASCAR...sorta.

Ban production cars being modified into pure racing vehicles, then surely banning any modifications whatsoever isn't far behind.

I honestly don't think this silliness has a hope in hell of being adopted...but you never know.

According to SEMA, the aftermarket accessory market is worth about $34 billion annually. 

The overall automotive accessory market is said to top $200 billion annually (at this moment, I don't know exactly what the difference is...).

By comparison, the US gun and ammo manufacturing industry only accounts for $13.5 billion, with a total economic impact of around $43 billion.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

Man, I'm confused.

The article the OP linked to says nothing about "donks" or donk wheels. Nothing. So how are "donks" involved in this?

Maybe it's not me that's confused... maybe the OP is the confused one.

[drummerdad]

I cant see this happening, yet. The government, and in my opinion the manufacturers, have been trying to stop the aftermarket for decades. I think SEMA, NHRA, IHRA, SCCA and a few dozen more racing sanctioning bodies, with a lot more initials, will fight this and beat it, for now. As far as donks, and big wheels, I dont get it, but its a preference thing. I love rear wheel, V8 cars, and I despise the imports and the fwd cars. I have a lot of friends who are opposite. Its their right as much as mine. The problem with this is, when they start taking away your right to go over the top on YOUR car that you bought with YOUR money, they have went too far. 

Just remember..

"The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time.......in this way the people will not see those rights and freedomes being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed." Adolf Hitler.

[charlie8575]

 

"The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time.......in this way the people will not see those rights and freedomes being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed." Adolf Hitler.

I certainly hope all of us can agree that it is this philosophy that must be our common enemy, even if our sub-interests in cars are not commonly shared. 

I've signed that petition and helped circulate it. I encourage all of you to do the same thing. Want to stop it? Be heard or suffer the potential consequences.

Charlie Larkin

[iamsuperdan]

By the EPA's description, my old autocross VW Passat would become illegal.

Coilover suspension, Eibach swaybars, Borla exhaust including high flow catalytic convertors, removed AC, added large turbocharger, Porsche brakes & wheels.

Even though I retained all emissions equipment (on purpose, hence the high flow cats) and tightened up the handling and improved the braking system, this car would still be deemed unsafe. As required by our insurance industry, the car passed all government mechanical and safety inspections before it could be insured or registered. But EPA would say illegal. The only thing I might consider unsafe or potentially illegal would be bumper height. I dialled the coilovers almost as low as I could, but in about 10 minutes could have the car at stock height or taller. If I wanted. Would 6 inches of added height make a huge difference anyway? Look at these trucks I'm parked between. Six inches of height would still casue major problems if I was t-boned. Or if I rear-ended one. 

What could be interesting is seeing how this affects amatuer racing in Canada.  EPA regulations do not apply in Canada, therefore, if this bill passes, I could see a lot of race shops move into southern Canada, and I could see a lot more racing going on here. Race series moving out of the Pacific northwest, crosssing the border, and seeing racing in lower mainland BC or in southern Ontario really pick up.