When Did "nnl" Events Become Contests?

[Harry P.]

Ok, folks...don't know why, but I feel like stirring the pot a little this morning.

I've been looking at all the various posts here regarding the just-finished NNL East, and I got to wondering: I thought "NNL" style events were supposed to be non-competitive displays. To quote fron the NNL website:

"NNL East 22 People's Choice Awards: NNL East is not a contest. People's Choice Awards are chosen by popular vote ballot. The intent of an NNL event is to take the focus off of competition"...

So explain to me how an event that gave out 22 awards, including "Best in Show", is not a contest???

Ok, instead of "judges" determining the winner, the "people" vote for the winner. Doesn't make any difference...if a particular model is either judged or voted "Best in Show", etc., then we have a contest on our hands. You can't determine winners and give out awards and then say it's not a contest! So what happened here? When did NNL events turn into the very thing they claimed to be "rebelling" against?

If anyone can logically explain how an event that determines winners and and gives out awards is not a contest, I'm all ears...

[crispy]

shhhhhh, I'm listening to the crickets.......

[MR BIGGS]

Ok, folks...don't know why, but I feel like stirring the pot a little this morning.

I've been looking at all the various posts here regarding the just-finished NNL East, and I got to wondering: I thought "NNL" style events were supposed to be non-competitive displays. To quote fron the NNL website:

"NNL East 22 People's Choice Awards: NNL East is not a contest. People's Choice Awards are chosen by popular vote ballot. The intent of an NNL event is to take the focus off of competition"...

So explain to me how an event that gave out 22 awards, including "Best in Show", is not a contest???

Ok, instead of "judges" determining the winner, the "people" vote for the winner. Doesn't make any difference...if a particular model is either judged or voted "Best in Show", etc., then we have a contest on our hands. You can't determine winners and give out awards and then say it's not a contest! So what happened here? When did NNL events turn into the very thing they claimed to be "rebelling" against?

If anyone can logically explain how an event that determines winners and and gives out awards is not a contest, I'm all ears...

That is a good question. I hope you can get an answer.

In the Nnl west I know they let the judge's give out an award to their pic. and also the magazine give's one out for their pick and there is a theme one too beside's the people's choice.

[george 53]

Harry,you ol pot stirrin rascal you! We just had an NNL style meet here in Deeetroit where they gave out "peoples choice" awards, it sure looked like a contest to me.Id like to hear an explanation too,seein hows youv'e done gone an started it an all.

[evilone]

shhhhhh, I'm listening to the crickets.......

dude did you here that loud one yet

he must be a HUGE one.................

[Daniel Peterson]

That is a good question. Frankly, I never worried all that much about it, but now I'm curious.

We hold an annual (our 9th year this year) "contest" that is judged by spectators only, though technically it's not a "judged" show, which if it was, would then make it a contest, which indeed it is.

I dont' know if we're a junior NNL or what you'd call us. We have a blast , though.

[Harry P.]

Harry, I don't think your stirring the pot at all. You bring up a very valid question, I've often wondered the same myself. I've been to a bunch off "NNl's" and all of them had some sort of award or awards to give out, and yes, like it or not, there is a competitive feel to most of them.

I've gotten a kick out of the folks who said that NNl's were great because there are no awards and it's just a layed back show...Yet at the end of the day, all those same folks that told me that, are packed into the main room eagerly awaiting and anticipating to see if their name is called up for some "hardware" and whispering to one another about how they though that "so and so's" car kicked everyone's ass..........Kind of ironic huh?

Exactly!

So why carry on this phony charade of NNLs "not being contests"? Nobody's being fooled, so what IS the point of insisting that an NNL event is NOT a contest? I don't get it...

[m408]

Isn't the practice of magazines "selecting" certain models to be professionally photographed a contest of sorts?

[pettiner]

Just to set the record straight, it was the 22nd NNL east show, there were not 22 awards, I believe there are only 5 or 6 awards, best junior, best in show, an award names for a deceased tri-state club member and one each for the three themes. As to the competive nature I believe that is up to the individual's feelings. I guess they should just say it is a non-judged contest except for the public voting.

[dub]

Here's my $.02 FWIW... I went to the show (I chose that word intentionally) with the mindset that I wasn't bringing home any awards. I knew going in the door that there would only be a couple of trophys to divide among 1000+ models. If one goes into a "contest" with that few awards to go around thinking they are going to clean up, they should probably go to a contest with real judges. IPMS does "real judging" as does the daddy of them all, GSL, they seem more appropriate for those looking to win something. I will say that a magazine wanting to take a picture of your work is another bonus to the whole show. I don't consider that a "trophy", but it is still an honor. Keep in mind, just because the mag took a couple pics of your model, they may not run any of them at all. (they probably will, but they aren't bound to you by contract to print a pic.) NNL shows are about meeting people and seeing their work "in the plastic". That's the attitude I gathered as well while in attendance. It comes down to the individual. What you get out of it is most important. If you are looking for a trophy, this isn't the show for you.

(note: boldfaced "you" is not directed at any individual)

[bobss396]

That's one of those questions that have no clear cut answers. Like where does the flame go when you blow out the candle?

Bob

[Raul_Perez]

Interesting question, Harry. I was wondering the same thing. There seems to be a lot of gray between the definition of a "show" and a "contest". Why do they call them "dog shows" when the dogs and their handlers are clearly competing for an award? The same thing goes for many "car shows". Something gets judged and an award is given.

For the longest time, the NNL West in Santa Clara only had a "People's Choice" award. That was it! The attending people, not a set of judges, picked their favorite model by ballot and the award was given at the end of the day. Over the past few years we've added "favorite picks" by magazine "A", then magazine "B", NNL host "A", then NNL host "B"… It doesn't affect me personally if I get an award or not, but in doing so, it does start to move us away from the original intent of the NNL which is "show only".

I think that part of the motivation for the "award" session is tied to the sponsor's desire for recognition and the adjoining swap meet that helps cover a significant portion of the expenses associated with conducting the NNL. The awards often draw in some of the more accomplished builders, and by keeping people around for the awards given out at the end of the day, you promote additional sales at the swap meet tables.

So with all of that said, my vote is for anything that is designated as an "NNL" event should be "show only". No awards of any kind. Anything that provides an award should be called a "contest". That way we eliminate the gray and no one gets a false sense of what the event is for or about.

Regards,

Edited April 15, 2008 by Raul_Perez

[robertw]

Two or more Guys doing some kind of activity....when doesn't it become some sort of competition. Give a couple of guys a 6 pack and it will turn into a drinking contest in a matter of minutes. LOL

I've had this conversation with modelling friends before, as to why displays always seem to have an element of competition. My argument is that our projects are miniature works of art and that art galleries don't do competitions. Their response, after laughing at me, is that it requires a competitive element to get guys to bring models out more then once. I guess the desire to determine who is best is just part of human nature.

Rob W

[Raul_Perez]

Two or more Guys doing some kind of activity....when doesn't it become some sort of competition. Give a couple of guys a 6 pack and it will turn into a drinking contest in a matter of minutes. LOL

I've had this conversation with modelling friends before, as to why displays always seem to have an element of competition. My argument is that our projects are miniature works of art and that art galleries don't do competitions. Their response, after laughing at me, is that it requires a competitive element to get guys to bring models out more then once. I guess the desire to determine who is best is just part of human nature.

Rob W

Interesting point, Rob. Yes, I was very competitive when I was younger...I had to have the fastest, best looking car and motorcycle...blah, blah, blah...

Now that I'm a lot older, I don't mind driving a 4dr sedan that I bought from my mother-in-law for $5; cruising around on my Goldwing while watching the pocket-rockets zoom past me; and spending more time sharing what I've learned about model building with you guys here on the forum than trying to prove that I can build a better model by beating someone else at a "contest".

[mikemodeler]

Harry,

While I have never entered a "contest" or NNL event, I have attended both and went for the atmosphere and chance to view some nicely built models. Not sure if anyone from the NNL East will give you the answer you are looking for, I am not that worked up over 4 or 5 "awards" being handed out at the event. As has been mentioned in above posts, the competitive nature of the human race makes handing out awards almost a given.

The Milwaukee NNL is coming up either this weekend or next. Never a big show like the NNL East, it is a nice show with decent turnout. I would suggest that you venture up there and check it out for yourself. Maybe someone from the host club can explain why they have awards at their NNL. I am sure someone from the "other model mag" will be there to cover the event and they might be able to explain it also.

My personal feeling is that over time, the NNL has "evolved", much like a lot of things, and somewhere along the line a decision was made to award a trophy. It could have been in honor of a deceased club member, maybe a top award based upon a theme, or has been mentioned, a sponsor was involved to help defray the costs associated with putting on the event.

Whatever the explanation is, I enjoy the pictures and am envious of the skills used to win whatever awards are handed out. Not sure I would ever be able to compete on that level, I still look at this hobby as a way to escape my hectic work & family life and seek pleasure in building in miniature what I cannot afford in real life.

That is my two pennies on the subject.

Mike

[Modlguy]

Well, there are differences. NNL's are not judged, so no one is scrutinizing the models, picking them up, and verbally picking them apart. The people displaying are there to show their cars and get together with fellow modelers. They don't have to face criticism. It's relaxed. That's why NNL East got almost 1,000 visitors. As noted, what balloting there is at an NNL is limited. At NNL East there have been suggestions over the years to expand it to include various other categories, and these have always been rejected. But it is felt that the attendees like to cast a vote for the models that they LIKE. And that is the difference. It could be a Snap kit. If someone thinks it's tasteful or creative that person gets a vote. No one requires that the model meet any standard other than that the voter like it. And the displayers are OK with that.

Bottom line is no one is intimidated to display at an NNL. Bring anything you want. Nobody will trash it. Nobody will put it down or say it isn't good enough. Thus: 1,200+ models on the tables.

I won't argue with you, Harry, if you contend that this is no different than a contest. But I think the people who attend feel that it is. Please come out and see for yourself. We'd really be happy to have you attend.

[Raul_Perez]

Yeah, Harry...you're more than welcome to attend the NNL West as well, BUT only if you bring a large collection of your art work to put on display and share with us!

[VW Dave]

I've been to the NNL East enough times to offer my take on it: The fact that the 3 theme class awards are given on the basis of participant balloting, it really isn't a 'contest' per se. There is no strict judging criteria, no point tallies, and folks simply pick the model they like; not an attractive forum for trophy hounds to strut around in, if you ask me. Our VW club's annual show was run the very same way for 12 years, and every year we heard from participants that it was a very nice way to run a show.

The Joe Cavorley memorial award is selected by the TSMCC in Joe's honor; he built amazing weathered vehicles, mostly municipal trucks, and the club selects the one vehicle that Joe would have appreciated the most....far from a 'contest' there as well.

IMO having SA select 2 of my models for pictures beats any trophy I could have brought home.

Edited April 16, 2008 by VW Dave

[Modelmartin]

Who said NNL shows are supposed to be non-competitive? or competitive? I have been around NNLs since the beginning and except for maybe the first two ever held there was always a vote for best theme, best in show, etc. The main idea initially was that there were to be no rules! That would include a rule that there be no awards! The only differences is that some shows have more awards and some have less. I think the key thing is that NNLs are not intended to be judged shows and were intended to be social events with all manner of models on display and a "popularity contest" attached. I do not believe they were intended to be pure about anything. NNls can be whatever the people organizing and running them want them to be.

Harry! Don't go hating on us NNLers!

[dub]

Or hatting either!

[Peter Lombardo]

Gentleman….what is going on around here? Have we all decided to eat our young? Some of us complaint because we left the forum and no one noticed. Some of us complain about the model choices others make about builds. Now we are going to bicker about whether a show is really a contest or visa versa. Hey Gregg…What’s the matter with you!!! Why is the site so slow!! I guess you guys must complain about the weather all the time and the fact that no one is doing anything about it.

Enough is enough. Look, I have been building model cars since I was 10 years old or so…now I am 59. Just over a year ago I stumbled onto this forum. I liked what I saw here….model car builders sharing ideas, observations, emotions and mostly their builds. I liked it. Now, there is so much divisive attitude here you can cut it with a knife.

I build models, period. I have a very stressful business to run all day long…after supper I settle down to my work bench, turn on The O’Rielly Factor and relax with my hobby. It is one of my two “happy placesâ€, (golf course is the other) where I can escape all of the ###### that I deal with every day.

I will not “bitch†about the things that surround this hobby. I don’t care if the manufacturers make a particular model or not. I will buy the cars that they make that interest me, modify them as I want and not worry about whether they will make a two door post hardtop “whatever†with a special option engine. I do not care if the forum is slow or not. I have a fast computer and a fiber optic line so, that is the best I can do, so I will not worry about it. I only have gone to the NNL East show/contest, and only because it is close to my home. Will I ever win anything? No…Never going to happen. Do I care? No. I was at the NNL East this year. I had 14 models there. I have to tell you guys that I had more fun talking with the “new bees†and the people that either don’t build or build very little because they are eager to learn how to do things. It is interesting to me how something that we, us builders, take for granted, a young modeler is “blown-away†with. Many people looked at my Ford Interceptor model and had no idea what it was. I had a great time explaining it, what it was and how I made it. The same with my cutaway Corvette. The point is, I went there for me, not awards. It is an opportunity to share my hobby with others and maybe have a positive influence on someone wanting to get into the hobby.

I do not care if you build lowriders, or donks or killer customs. You build what you like. I build what I like. I will look at all of them. I will not respond to all posts, but I will look. I don’t expect you to respond to my posts. I don’t care. Sure I like it when one of you guys complement one of my builds, but I know if I am happy with the build and that is all that matters to me.

So, the point is, Oh, maybe there is no point. I build models, I build models for my own satisfaction. I will continue to do so and I will not pay any, and I mean any attention to all of your bickering and complaining. I will not leave the forum and I don’t care who does or does not stay and post. Guys, this is not life or death. This is just a model car forum to share the hobby that we participate in. This getting way too childish lately. And as Bill O'Rielly would say, "And thats a Memo".

[Ariel]

Harry, I don't think your stirring the pot at all. You bring up a very valid question, I've often wondered the same myself. I've been to a bunch of "NNl's" and all of them had some sort of award or awards to give out, and yes, like it or not, there is a competitive feel to most of them.

I've gotten a kick out of the folks who said that NNl's were great because there are no awards and it's just a layed back show...Yet at the end of the day, all those same folks that told me that, are packed into the main room eagerly awaiting and anticipating to see if their name is called up for some "hardware" and whispering to one another about how they though that "so and so's" car kicked everyone's ass..........Kind of ironic huh?

Hey Jeff I don't agree with you on the competitive feel. i think more people are interested in having there pics taken more than anything. The only people that feel the competitve feel are the trophy whores. I don't wish to mention any names of these trophy whore, Like Mike Napoleon and Tommy Kortman.

I think the only people feeling the comptitve feel are people that have won at NNL's before. The rest of us are just happy having our photos come out in a magazine. i think i speak for all us OOB builders. Just my 2 cents. if i keep giving my 2 cents around here I my end up in the poor house.

[Modelmartin]

Enough is enough. I will not “bitch†about the things that surround this hobby.

Except for the bitching, of course!

We are all humans! There would be something terribly wrong if we were not bitching about something. I find it humorous that you relax with Mr. O'reilly who is a master of bitching about what he dislikes!

This is meant to be humorous. Please don't bitch about it.

Andy Martin

[Harry P.]

Some of you guys have really misunderstood my point.

I'm not bashing contests, or shows, or the people who attend/enter them. I have NO PROBLEM with any of that, so for those of you who took my post to suggest I'm against NNL-type events in some way, you're WAY off base. I never said anything like that.

This came about only because I was checking out the various NNL posts you guys were putting up, and I came across the "Best in Show" winner...which struck me as odd, since NNLs are supposedly "non-competitive" events. (It says so on their websites...they make a big point of always mentioning this!) But in my mind you can't call yourself a "non-competitive" event if winners are determined and awards are handed out, so I figured I'd get some opinions on the topic from you guys. Simple as that. Sheeesh, no reason to get your britches in a twist...

And one last comment: to those of you who get all bent out of shape if anything even the LEAST BIT controversial is posted, I'd suggest you re-think what this "forum" is supposed to be. It's a place to exchange tips, techniques, observations and OPINIONS. At least that's my take on it I don't want this forum to become some sort of "safe zone" where all we're allowed to do is talk about ponies and lollipops. If all we're supposed to post here are things like "awesome build" and "nice stance", I think I'd prefer a different forum with a slightly higher level of intellectual conversation.

So thanks to you guys who added your take on this...and to those who were so ghastly offended by my "rant"...I'm SO sorry...

[Harry P.]

Yeah, Harry...you're more than welcome to attend the NNL West as well, BUT only if you bring a large collection of your art work to put on display and share with us!

Some of my artwork was there...on the name badges and the wall banners...