Compliments on posted models

[Eshaver]

That is 100% FALSE.

Nobody here is a bigger fan of free expression than I am. Nobody has ever been thrown off because of critical comments they may have made on a model. To say that is just flat out wrong, and you should know better than to throw around baseless accusations like that.

The only reason that anyone has ever been banned is due to that person breaking forum rules. Usually many times, because we give people several "second chances" before we pull the trigger and ban them. So anyone that has been banned from here has broken forum rules many times. But commenting on a posted model is not against any rule here... in fact, it's encouraged! That's how people learn to be better builders!

Harry, you need to run for public office ............

[10thumbs]

This is a good topic and I've read all of the replies, and can agree to almost all.

Criticism is not an easy thing to offer, or even provide.  Personally,  I don't like praising just for the sake of making a comment.  I do like to show enthusiasm when a model shows something exceptional.

When a guy my age (60+) shows what he obviously feels like is his best effort, no way could I criticize thick plug wires or wobbly wheels.  I like it though, when the guy asks for thoughts or "what could I do better".  That's a good point in my opinion.  Communication is often lacking, plus the absence of a clear written thought has me often walking away.  I can't believe sometimes, I'm reading English from an American, but cannot understand the abrupt short brain farts he's trying to convey.

So, if the model is good, and the guy asks specifically for thoughts, if I see something then I'd like to comment.

I have an ongoing project and am grateful for answers when I specifically ask for thoughts, or opinions.  Thanks to those who do so, this helps a lot.

Bottom line, I don't like telling a guy his model has issues.  He won't like it, then I'm not happy.  We don't have to criticize.  But we like to show, and look at pics.

 

 

 

[Xingu]

That's a real nice looking post, Bill.

Who said sarcasm cannot be conveyed on the internet.

 

[bobthehobbyguy]

This site has nearly 16,000 registered members, so there are probably close to 16,000 opinions on "the proper" response.

One persons constructive criticism is another's being a jerk. People get bent out of shape every day here. Some that I can recall, not enough comments, meaningless comments, too harsh a criticism, to soft a criticism, including a photo in your signature block, posting a similar model you've built in somebody else's post, not posting photos of your models, where to post, why does this belong over there, the mods are too harsh, the mods are too lenient. It gets to the point that I delete a lot of my responses unless I'm fairly familiar with the person, I'm here for fun not to add to my stress level. 

 

Edited to add (as the above looks a bit critical and doesn't really address the topic)...

 

For myself, I try to look for the good, then for things I might be able to use (a technique, source of parts, color of paint etc) and then possibly mention any flaws along with a possible solution. If I don't have a possible fix, then there isn't much point in my bringing it up. 

i think this sums it up. You can always find a way to offend someone without intending to,

bottom line if you want to improve then tell others that is what you wantIbthink the best policy is ro treat this forum as youvwould attending an NNL. You wwouldn't walk up to someone and start telling them how to improve without them asking for it.

[Aaronw]

Which is exactly why I respectfully suggested earlier that it would be good to try to find something about the model that IS worthy of praise. I've often been surprised and even inspired by very original and creative concepts and ideas that weren't particularly well executed technically.

You can sincerely praise the IDEA even if the execution leaves much room for improvement.

I read and agree with your posts. "Wow cool color what did you use", serves the same purpose as "nice job" but comes across as more sincere and opens a dialog where you can decide if they are open to some suggestions, and if not still gave them a reply which is important to some. Honestly I sometimes have as much trouble responding to stuff on the amazing skill level end as I do the low end. We have a few builders here who have exhausted my vocabulary of superlatives. Wow!  is sometimes the best that I can muster. 

[MrObsessive]

This is a good topic and I've read all of the replies, and can agree to almost all.

Criticism is not an easy thing to offer, or even provide.  Personally,  I don't like praising just for the sake of making a comment.  I do like to show enthusiasm when a model shows something exceptional.

When a guy my age (60+) shows what he obviously feels like is his best effort, no way could I criticize thick plug wires or wobbly wheels.  I like it though, when the guy asks for thoughts or "what could I do better".  That's a good point in my opinion.  Communication is often lacking, plus the absence of a clear written thought has me often walking away.  I can't believe sometimes, I'm reading English from an American, but cannot understand the abrupt short brain farts he's trying to convey.

So, if the model is good, and the guy asks specifically for thoughts, if I see something then I'd like to comment.

I have an ongoing project and am grateful for answers when I specifically ask for thoughts, or opinions.  Thanks to those who do so, this helps a lot.

Bottom line, I don't like telling a guy his model has issues.  He won't like it, then I'm not happy.  We don't have to criticize.  But we like to show, and look at pics.

What he said where I highlighted!

Often, I've skipped over posts because what is being said is typed out in one looooong paragraph with no breaks, bad and obvious spelling errors, making it tiresome for me to read. I know this is not English class, but good communication goes a long way to ensure that maybe, just perhaps someone in the know will take the time to read all the way through what was posted.

I also don't like to point out errors or criticize on a public forum what are obvious bad building techniques and/or paint. I have PM'd folks in the past to point out WIP mistakes that they may be making. That is one way to get something across without singling them out in public. 

I guess I gotta say like Mom always says............"If you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all".

[Miatatom]

Often, I've skipped over posts because what is being said is typed out in one looooong paragraph with no breaks, bad and obvious spelling errors, making it tiresome for me to read. I know this is not English class, but good communication goes a long way to ensure that maybe, just perhaps someone in the know will take the time to read all the way through what was posted.

Is there a voice inside you saying "we sound like our English teachers and (sometimes) our parents". My inner voice says that, with a laugh, every time I read a post from someone that is written in what I call "iPhonenese". I think that's what you described so well. Add to that description, the use of 2 for to or too, r for are, u for you, etc. 

[Dragline]

I am the type that says nothing if I find a model to be of poor craftsmanship. If I see great effort to clean things and bring them to a certain standard but the execution is a little off I will add an ATTABOY with qualification.

I do not praise poorly done work, or work I see as rushed. This hobby requires patience to achieve a desired result. If that result is not achieved and I see shortcuts I will again refrain from commenting.

 

This may seem self serving but hear me out. I have posted what I consider excellent work that was met with some praise but was limited to maybe 7-10 comments before it scrolled away into oblivion.

 

I have witnessed the same kit, built in a slipshod manner receive 2-3 pages of limited acclaim. What does this mean?

 

There are a great many well wishers who feel that a positive comment is worth it and can urge the builder on to greater heights. There is a margin of truth to this indeed. But ultimately I feel it instills false confidence in the builder. We have had a few here who were urged on until it ended up exploding into butt hurt. The only takeaway was that one of the builders had thick enough skin to weather such a storm and became MUCH better.

 

But such examples are few and far between. Explain the faults in such a way that it doesn't sound like it's coming down from the mountain. Be critical and specific AND kind.

 

And be READY to show what you can do in order to establish you are a voice that contains wisdom and experience.

 

 

Bob

[Rider]

I read and agree with your posts. "Wow cool color what did you use", serves the same purpose as "nice job" but comes across as more sincere and opens a dialog where you can decide if they are open to some suggestions, and if not still gave them a reply which is important to some. Honestly I sometimes have as much trouble responding to stuff on the amazing skill level end as I do the low end. We have a few builders here who have exhausted my vocabulary of superlatives. Wow!  is sometimes the best that I can muster. 

Agreed.

I don't like to give false praise, I feel as though I am doing nothing but pandering their work or skill level.  I always try to find something worthy of praise on a build, even if there are numerous flaws. I think as a builder you would have to be completely blind not to be able to see when your work is sub par and needs improvement.  Either that or the builder is simply satisfied with their current skill level. Something we haven't considered is perhaps the builder is a high functional special needs person. Either way the bottom line is, support our fellow builders and engourage their skill development without pandering and provide constructive encouragement when ever possible. 

As builders on a forum this size we have to be aware that not all our builds are going to be accepted and liked, build for yourself and find a style that makes you happy. 

 

[Repstock]

I read all of your comments, and I will continue to read them as more are added. I got just what I hoped for when I started this thread. You've all given me points to think about. Thanks for all the responses.

As one who is virtually impossible to offend on a message board, I guess I tend to feel everyone is the same way. I need to stop and realize everyone is different. reading these posts reminds me of that. Thanks again!

 

[Dennis Lacy]

Maybe it's a semantic difference to most people, but to me, there is a difference between criticism and critique.

I think this is an excellent point, Chris.

The word criticism just has a negative connotation and by definition it's not intended to be a positive. To criticize is to find fault in someone or something, period. However, to critique is to analyse someone or something and to find both the positives and the negatives. Critique is the word that we should be using as it applies to viewing and commenting on members models.

When it comes to actually putting my thoughts into words on a forum I have always found it best to mention a thing or two positive before addressing the negatives. There's always something positive to say. Even if the model is rough the builders intentions can be complimented (concept, color, wheel choice, etc...). I also find it important that if a flaw is going to be pointed out then the person pointing it out should also include advice on how to get better results on future projects.

Speaking of models and semantics, models are what we are all building here. We're not building builds. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Dennis Lacy

[Tom Geiger]

I am the type that says nothing if I find a model to be of poor craftsmanship. If I see great effort to clean things and bring them to a certain standard but the execution is a little off I will add an ATTABOY with qualification.

I do not praise poorly done work, or work I see as rushed. This hobby requires patience to achieve a desired result. If that result is not achieved and I see shortcuts I will again refrain from commenting.

This may seem self serving but hear me out. I have posted what I consider excellent work that was met with some praise but was limited to maybe 7-10 comments before it scrolled away into oblivion.

I have witnessed the same kit, built in a slipshod manner receive 2-3 pages of limited acclaim. What does this mean?

There are a great many well wishers who feel that a positive comment is worth it and can urge the builder on to greater heights. There is a margin of truth to this indeed. But ultimately I feel it instills false confidence in the builder. We have had a few here who were urged on until it ended up exploding into butt hurt. The only takeaway was that one of the builders had thick enough skin to weather such a storm and became MUCH better.

Bob

First I would like to say I don't believe there are mutual admiration societies here on the board.  I am privileged to personally know  a lot of folks on this board due to my over involvement in the hobby for 30 years. Yes, when I post my build threads and under glass models, some of my friends will compliment me on the model.  But I build fairly out of the mainstream of the average modeler on this board.  I'll see 100 views and 5 positive posts.  I just laugh and imagine that 95 people looked and saw my rusty light commercial vehicle,  thought to themselves "Dam, not a Hemi!" and clicked back out.  I don't care.  I used to care about such things when I was younger but I outgrew caring what people think. I care about my art and my personal relationship with that subject. If nobody else gets it, so what?!

There are times a model of mine will get a load of positive comments and other times I wonder if my Internet connection is working.  It's random, it's meaningless.

What I can say is in my modeling journey I came back to this hobby in my 30s, back around 1989.  I had several false starts back into the hobby. Each time I found a kit that I wanted to build and only got so far before I was frustrated by my poor work and put it away.  The final time I was determined.  I finished a model. I found a club in those pre-Internet days and joined.  My model wasn't all that great.  And why did I fail countless times?  Because I was alone in this, and each time in my 20s and early 30s I attempted a build, I used the same skills I had as a teenager. And I got the same results.  It wasn't a lack of desire or talent. It was pretty much that I was in this alone and hadn't discovered the techniques, correct supplies and materials that are pretty much tribal knowledge in the adult hobby.

People in the club immediately took me under their wing and taught me the basics.  That first model had Testors silver painted trim that I spent a lot of time getting 80% right.  That was covered with my first Bare Metal Foil attempts.  My models got better each and every time.  Nobody told me my models sucked, just patiently pointed out how I could do it better the next time.  I was receptive and absorbed information like a sponge.  

There were times along this journey when I thought I had built the perfect model. It looked perfect to my eyes, but didn't place in contests. And that frustrated me. I look back now with my experienced eyes and see the issues I failed to see back then.  It's all part of that growth process.

On the other hand, there are people I've know who frustrated me.  They were people who I thought had so much promise as a modeler, but stopped short, didn't do prep work, rushed finishing and otherwise settled for mediocre results.  Just like in my professional life where I've had people who could have advanced in their career but were happy being good at a lower level position.  I didn't understand it since it wasn't my nature, but now I'll conclude that people do what they want to do. Everyone has a different thought process.

 

 

[mk11]

Maybe the best thing to remember before offering commentary on anyone's work is to simply apply the Golden Rule.

Read through your comment before you post it, and think how YOU would feel if someone said it to you...and try to remember that not everyone is as tough or as confident as you may be too.

But you know, this is almost a non-issue here. I rarely see an unkind comment regarding anyone's models.

 

Maybe that golden rule thingy could be applied in other ways as well...

a while back, panties were knotted over unmatching spark plug wires and snide comments were made about the 'knuckle draggers and mouthbreathers' who apparently couldn't divine Unwritten Rules of Rodding like the absolute necessity of peeling stickers off carburetors. If the owner of the '34 Plymouth coupe running a sbc with adapted FireFlite valve covers knew his efforts fell under the label of 'poseur' in someone's all-knowing lexicon, he would just laugh.  Sometimes negative commentary can reveal more about the commentator than he realizes...

 

mike

[plastic-mechanic]

First I would like to say I don't believe there are mutual admiration societies here on the board.  ...

 

thanks for the good laugh!

[Mike Kucaba]

Interesting topic. I have no comment as I don't want to offend anyone.

[gtx6970]

If i  like the build...I'll make a comment irregardless of how well its built.

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by gtx6970

[blunc]

well played everyone.

I only build for fun...but it's MY kind of fun.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Maybe that golden rule thingy could be applied in other ways as well...

a while back, panties were knotted over unmatching spark plug wires and snide comments were made about the 'knuckle draggers and mouthbreathers' who apparently couldn't divine Unwritten Rules of Rodding like the absolute necessity of peeling stickers off carburetors. If the owner of the '34 Plymouth coupe running a sbc with adapted FireFlite valve covers knew his efforts fell under the label of 'poseur' in someone's all-knowing lexicon, he would just laugh.  Sometimes negative commentary can reveal more about the commentator than he realizes...

 

mike

Expressing a negative opinion of an unknown real-car builder's particular choices on a forum where model cars are the topic is hardly the same as making cruel and derogatory comments about a model-car on the poster's own thread.

It's perhaps too subtle a distinction for some to grasp, but it's not the same thing at all.

I'd like to be directed to the specific post you quoted "knuckle draggers and mouthbreathers" from too, by the way. I missed it.

But you're right. Sometimes negative commentary does indeed reveal a lot about the commentator.

And one more point...putting Hemi valve covers on a Chevy IS simply trying to pass something that's relatively inexpensive and commonplace off as something it's not. Fake is fake. If YOU like fake, goody for you. I don't.

There have been modelers over the years who have put incorrect valve covers on model-car engines, usually unaware that different engines ARE different, not just labeled differently, in reality. Label your Ford as a DeSoto Firedome if you want but don't expect to be patted on the back for your scale-fidelity by anyone who knows what he's looking at.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

thanks for the good laugh!

Southpier? Southpier, can you hear me?

Try posting some photos of your own work. I'm certain that there are plenty of folks here, me included, who will give it high praise indeed if it's merited.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ron Hamilton]

I have read all of the posts in this thread, and here is my 2cents.

I have been building for almost 55 years (yes I am that old), and I have seen some of the absolute best built models and some of the worst. I do not think of myself as one of the great modelers here on the board, but I know what I am looking at, and what it takes to build a decent model.

Skill level is relative.  Some folks are not willing to sweat the small details that separates a mediocre build from a good one. We can see where someone has not prepped the body for paint, or finish, as well as using either the wrong type of glue and/or paint on a build. When I was a kid, I was not too patient, and built many a glue-bomb. My bedroom really reeked of Testors or Pactra model car glue and paint. It seemed that some of them never dried. I had a friend named Eric Ashley, who was a couple of years older than me, who built some of the best models in the neighborhood. In today's world, his work would be rated semi crude, but back in the day, I rarely saw better built models. He often would "tell me like it was" about my builds, and would make suggestions on how to improve my work by demonstrating different techniques.

Here on this board, I have seen some of the best built models by several different modelers. It does not take a whole lot of money, or aftermarket parts to turn out a good model, but it does take patience, practice, and a little research on the subject. I believe that the use of working features and after market items done properly, can take a build "over the top" Some kits need quite a bit of work to make them decent, as some of them have proportion issues, as well as assembly issues, and there are several members here on the board who are more than happy to point them out.

There are also several members who will give their opinion on a build, and I do not mind that. When I was building my 1966 Chevrolet Caprice Hardtop,

Roger Hayes beat on me until it seemed that I made it right, and for the most part, I agreed with his critique on the build, as he was able to back up what he was writing about, and to me, His work backs him up. I utilized most of Roger's comments on the build, which did improve it, and I thanked him in the thread. When I was building my '67Chevrolet Concours Estate Wagon,

I was alerted by a few members here on the board that the wood-grain moldings I originally used was out of scale, and improperly located on the model. I made the suggested changes, and that improved the build immensely. I got a lot of encouragement to finish the build here too, as it got bogged down in the middle of the build.

At our modeling club meeting, I am often asked either how I did something on a build of mine, what I would I do on their build to make it better, or my opinion on their work in progress. I will also ask some of the builders in our club at a meeting, or an NNL "how did you do that?" when I see something of theirs that piqued my interest.

I do mot make critiques about models here on the board, unless the builders ask for it, as some folks have a skin that is too thin, and would take a suggestion as an insult. However, I do not mind suggestions on how to improve a build of mine, especially while it is under construction.

 

[oldcarfan]

I try to be complementary not to make someone feel better but because I don't want to feel pedantic or nitpicky. My old college school roommate was one of those annoying, "Well, if it was me, I would have done it this way..." rivet counter kind of guys. It really got on my nerves. I've always told myself I didn't want to be like that. He couldn't just enjoy something for what it is.

[Harry Joy]

This supposed difference of tone between "criticism" and "critique" is a little off base. Critique has sort of supplanted criticism in some uses, but really the only difference between the two is that one is a fairly modern borrowing from French, and the other is an older borrowing from Latin. Critique just sounds fancier. They both mean the same thing. To my ear, criticism sounds no more and no less mean than critique.

In college, I studied philosophy as part of my dual majors in theater and political science (yes, classic liberal arts major), and the study of criticism in the classic Greek sense was necessary to understanding both.

[Harry P.]

A movie critic, a restaurant critic, a book critic, etc., gives his/her opinion, good or bad. So criticism isn't only negative.

[MyBradKeselowski]

I see this topic getting locked before too long..

[slusher]

A movie critic, a restaurant critic, a book critic, etc., gives his/her opinion, good or bad. So criticism isn't only negative.

Your right Harry, but those critics get paid for it,,,,I am making a joke....