Oops...self-driving cars perhaps not quite ready for prime time yet.

[sjordan2]

I've driven nothing but manual trans cars since 1983 (except for the wife's automatics), and pretty much wouldn't want to go automatic. I like driving, and I like the connection you have with the car when it's a stick.

Except when I'm sitting in heavy traffic. My Mustang's clutch takes quite a bit of effort, and man, your leg can get real tired after 15-20 minutes of crawling in stop and go traffic. Too bad they don't have an "automatic" switch for situations like that!

Story of my life, especially when crawling on icy streets.

[martinfan5]

 

. Not to mention as a lot of us here over 50 can vouch for--------the knees and legs don't work as well as they used to 20 years prior.

I am 30 and my knees and my knees dont always wanna work like they should.   I would love very much to get a manual trans, but not for an every day driver , nope. 

[Quick GMC]

Too small a sample out there right now...get enough of them on the road to actually matter, and the numbers will zoom upward...

yeah but we don't blame cars when people text and crash. Tesla stated in the beginning that drivers are to keep their hands on the steering wheel and remain alert. It this particular instance, the car is not at fault. It didn't see the truck that blended it with the sky, but it wasn't really designed to catch cross traffic anyway. Not to mention the guy was obviously not paying attention, movie or no movie. 

So the first death connected to autopilot is the fault of the driver, not a failure on the technology's part. 

[Spex84]

I think it's fair to blame the system, and not the driver. Sure, he may not have been paying attention, but in design terms, the Tesla auto-pilot has an affordance problem. In the same way a knob affords "twisting/pulling" and a button affords "pushing", the auto-pilot system affords (and almost celebrates) complete driver inattention without immediate consequences. In a 100% autonomous scenario, this would be fine; however in a semi-autonomous scenario it almost guarantees distracted, unprepared drivers.

Imagine if you were a passenger in a car, but had an auxiliary steering wheel mounted in front of you. You are on a 5 hour road trip. At any point, the actual driver of the car may fall asleep and you must immediately take control.

Now...don't lose focus! Feeling tired? Don't blink, because every moment could be that critical moment!

In general, people aren't very good at sustaining that level of focus on an arbitrary task (ie, "watching nothing") for extended periods of time.

For all we know, the driver could have been listening to audio books/running a DVD because he was trying to stay awake and alert.

 

 

[MrObsessive]

This is a very interesting thread! I been thinking for quite some time now when "autonomous" cars first started making the news, who's going to be at fault when there's an accident? One could try to sue the carmaker (for instance Tesla), Tesla could then take a hands off approach and then sue the software maker for that particular system in the car, the software maker could then counter-sue and blame the driver for their "error", because the system in the car was not used as intended.

Where would it all end?

I can see this being one big fat legal nightmare because in today's litigious society, NO ONE wants to take the blame for anything------it's always someone else's fault. 

For all we know, the driver could have been listening to audio books/running a DVD because he was trying to stay awake and alert.

BINGO! The very reason why such vehicles should never be allowed to turn a wheel on the road! You can't even get people to pay attention when they're in control driving on a bright sunny day, let alone getting them to "take over" when things go awry!

 

[Mark]

Tesla stated in the beginning that drivers are to keep their hands on the steering wheel and remain alert. 

Then why have it?  I'd rather DO the driving than, essentially, watch the car drive itself.  Less driver input and involvement will lead to more distractions.  Same goes for those stupid rear view cameras...the manufacturers still tell you to turn around and look while backing up.  Get rid of that garbage, and just make the windows big enough to actually see out of.

As for the stick vs. automatic discussion, every vehicle I have owned as a daily driver has been a stick (though only three in 37 years).  There aren't too many available now, and that number might be down to zero by the next time I buy a vehicle...

[JohnU]

Frankly, I'm all for the back up cameras on vehicles! Fantastic safety feature! Have one on my pickup and it eliminates the huge blind spot from the top of the tailgate, bumper to the ground! Can't count the number of near misses it helps to avoid! Yeah, I still use all my mirrors! This feature augments there use. Why do you think they use them on school buses?

[highway]

the manual trans is dying. it won't be long before they aren't even an option anymore

You are quite right, even big rigs are going automatic. I have driven trucks for 18 1/2 years, and this is the first time in my career I don't want a new truck. I drive a 2013 now and it is due for trade in and my dispatcher recently told me I'm up for a new truck soon and I flat told him "I don't want it"! The only reason, it will have an automatic. 

 

Now try to find a car with manual windows today!

All I have to do is walk out to my car! Yeah, it's an 8 year old 2008 Chevy Cobalt, but it came with manual windows and manual locks. 

 

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

Hard for me to believe there are grown men who can't drive a manual gearbox. 

Oh wait. It's 2016. Actually knowing how to do ANYTHING that requires some effort is obsolete.

Like staying awake while the car drives itself.

[Mark]

Every so often, when I take my truck to the dealer for an oil change, I'll see someone walk out to pull it in to the service area.  He'll open the door, then close it and walk back to the service counter.  Then someone else walks out, gets in, and pulls it in.

The ultimate anti-theft device today would probably be a three-speed with a column shift. 

[Tom Geiger]

The ultimate anti-theft device today would probably be a three-speed with a column shift. 

I once drove my 1965 Barracuda, slant six, three on the tree car, to a restaurant with Valet Only parking.  I left it where they told me and went into the bar area of the restaurant to meet with work friends.  It wasn't long that a valet came looking for me to move the car! 

[MrObsessive]

Hard for me to believe there are grown men who can't drive a manual gearbox. 

Sad ain't it Bill?

Back in the early '80's I sorely wanted a '65 Dart Convertible with a three on the tree. I hadn't yet learned how to drive a standard shift car, and my Dad refused to show me how. He had a very nasty experience trying to show my Mom how to drive stick many years earlier, and it turned into a disaster. She ended up wrecking the trans in our '55 Plymouth Savoy and my Dad swore he would never show anyone again how to drive a manual shift.

He told me if I wanted the car bad enough, I'd take the time and learn it. So that's what I did! After a few stalled attempts and a bit of rolling back on hills-------within a day I had mastered it down pat! Nowadays, folks are too "busy" in their cars with yakking on the phone, texting, eating, putting on make-up.......who has time to shift a car! 

 

[niteowl7710]

The Tesla system isn't an "autonomous car", it's an "auto pilot".  If you know anything about basic aviation you know an auto pilot can fly the plane at a given heading, airspeed, altitude, or Nav Point, or all of them at the same time.  However unless you input a new heading, speed, or altitude it will fly the same way for infinity, or until it runs out of gas - think of Payne Stewart's plane when it lost cabin pressure and everyone passed away, it flew until it ran out of gas before crashing.  Really fancy planes can be put into a "Landing Autopilot" that will effectively do everything but wash the galley afterwards, but a lot of minivans & SUVs will parallel park themselves too.

The system isn't meant to drive you from Point A to Point B without you doing anything like a truly autonomous vehicle.  It's meant only for highway use where it keeps speed and lane control, it's not gonna grab an exit and take you to the charging station. You also have to turn it on, which involves "signing" a ToS every time you activate it, saying much like the pilot in the airplane, you're gonna actually pay attention and not sleep or watch the Prisoner of Azkaban.

[GT4494]

Someone at a much higher pay grade than mine explained to me that the early Tesla systems were Optical and the truck was white.  The optics could not discern the truck from the sky so it sensed no danger.  Now the cars also use a radar/sonar style recognition system that is "Supposed" to prevent this. 

 

I still do not like driving anything that the steering wheel does not connect to the wheels on the ground, or something that has my life in its hands with no human input. 

Edited July 2, 2016 by GT4494

[High octane]

 

I had a tough time finding a 5 speed back in 1991 when I bought my Geo Tracker.  Entire lots of them and not a clutch in the bunch.  Salesmen would just shrug and say that nobody can drive a clutch anymore. And that was 25 years ago!

During my ownership I can't tell you how many times someone has asked me if they could drive it around the block, only to find out they couldn't drive a clutch.  And these were men in their 30s and 40s.

Now try to find a car with manual windows today!

They still offer manual windows on the new GMC pickup trucks.

[High octane]

That accident was a "given" as I just knew that it was comin'.

[Joe Handley]

Someone at a much higher pay grade than mine explained to me that the early Tesla systems were Optical and the truck was white.  The optics could not discern the truck from the sky so it sensed no danger.  Now the cars also use a radar/sonar style recognition system that is "Supposed" to prevent this. 

 

I still do not like driving anything that the steering wheel does not connect to the wheels on the ground, or something that has my life in its hands with no human input. 

I believe that they still have a mechanical link to the steering, however, that would still come down to the person behind the wheel actually looking to see where they're going and taking over when needed, Harry Potter be danged.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I believe that they still have a mechanical link to the steering...

There ARE actually steering systems that remove the mechanical linkage between the steering wheel and the road wheels, replacing it with sensors, computers and electric motors.

ANY engineer who thinks this is a good idea, and ANY product planner who agrees or promotes this idiocy ought to be put in a shopping cart and rolled down a steep hill to get a feel of what it will be like when the system inevitably fails.

Electrically assisted power-steering is one thing, but entirely "drive by wire" steering is stupid and unnecessary complication simply for the sake of complication...and to be all techno-hip with no connection to common sense.

It makes about as much sense as designing a computer-controlled hammer to drive a nail.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Mike_G]

Hard for me to believe there are grown men who can't drive a manual gearbox. 

I hear you there. My first 4-wheeled vehicle was a '51 Ford F1 pickup that I bought with money I made working on a cattle ranch when I was 15. It had a non-synchromesh 4-speed so I had to learn to double-clutch. After that experience, I think I could drive just about anything.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I hear you there. My first 4-wheeled vehicle was a '51 Ford F1 pickup that I bought with money I made working on a cattle ranch when I was 15. It had a non-synchromesh 4-speed so I had to learn to double-clutch. After that experience, I think I could drive just about anything.

 Yup. One of my requisites for female companionship for the past several years has been "must be able to drive a three-on-the-tree". Needless to say, I'm a lonely guy. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

I just love the techno-bozos who endlessly repeat that "steer-by-wire" and "throttle-by-wire" are "quicker responding and more precise" than mechanical linkage systems. 

Obviously, these are people who never took anything apart (much less put it back together) or played with an Erector Set.

It's simply physically impossible to be "quicker" than a simple, correctly-designed (un-worn-out) mechanical linkage. Period.

From a societal-engineering standpoint, I see the "autonomous" vehicle trend to be just another way to remove the concept of taking personal responsibility for ANYTHING from the daily lives of the sheeple.

Which makes me wonder: when's autonomous toilet paper going to become popular? It would surely remove another one of life's less-than-pleasant tasks and greatly add to quality-of-life. There seem to be a fair number of less-than-skilled users of the old-fashioned manual kind, so surely the market is there. And it probably wouldn't kill you if it failed. 

                                                                                           

 

Edited July 2, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Joe Handley]

There ARE actually steering systems that remove the mechanical linkage between the steering wheel and the road wheels, replacing it with sensors, computers and electric motors.

ANY engineer who thinks this is a good idea, and ANY product planner who agrees or promotes this idiocy ought to be put in a shopping cart and rolled down a steep hill to get a feel of what it will be like when the system inevitably fails.

Electrically assisted power-steering is one thing, but entirely "drive by wire" steering is stupid and unnecessary complication simply for the sake of complication...and to be all techno-hip with no connection to common sense.

It makes about as much sense as designing a computer-controlled hammer to drive a nail.

I won't disagree with you there, I don't even like the electric throttle body on my 200, but have to deal with it until I can afford a programmer for the car to get rid of the throttle lag built into it. With the traction control turned on and the factory hockey puck tires, it took no effort to try and lay rubber by accident with the car...........then the traction control kicks in and the car suddenly develops torque steer it doesn't have with the system off?!  When I bought my Jeep, I even made an efford to find one that wasn't built with the optional ($500 at that) ABS  so I wouldn't have issues with that going sideways like the earlier system in Dad's would do (sometimes all but disabling the entire braking system!)  Right now I'm just happy that, so far as we know, none of our vehicles are on the Takata airbag list, although my Jeep does have the older, made to stop the unbelted 250lb idiot, airbags that can also kill kids, old people, and those of smaller stature.

[Joe Handley]

I just love the techno-bozos who endlessly repeat that "steer-by-wire" and "throttle-by-wire" are "quicker responding and more precise" than mechanical linkage systems. 

Obviously, these are people who never took anything apart (much less put it back together) or played with an Erector set.

It's simply physically impossible to be "quicker" than a simple, correctly-designed (un-worn-out) mechanical linkage. Period.

From a societal-engineering standpoint, I see the "autonomous" vehicle trend to be just another way to remove the concept of taking personal responsibility for ANYTHING from the daily lives of the sheeple.

Which makes me wonder: when's autonomous toilet paper going to become popular? It would surely remove another one of life's less-than-pleasant tasks and greatly add to quality-of-life. There seem to be a fair number of less-than-skilled users of the old-fashioned manual kind, so surely the market is there. And it probably wouldn't won't kill you if it failed. 

 

From what I understand, the "quicker" come from a motor doing the work for the computer instead of the loose screw behind the wheel that may be about as competent at shifting an automatic as someone who has never driven before

[Harry P.]

If you are being transported in a "self-driving" car, and something goes wrong and the car causes an accident, is the "rider" in the car responsible? Or the car manufacturer?

In other words, if we actually get to the point where cars are truly autonomous and need no driver input, and there is a collision... who is the responsible party?

[Ace-Garageguy]

If you are being transported in a "self-driving" car, and something goes wrong and the car causes an accident, is the "rider" in the car responsible? Or the car manufacturer?

In other words, if we actually get to the point where cars are truly autonomous and need no driver input, and there is a collision... who is the responsible party?

Good question. The bozo who drove into my old truck a couple weeks past is now refusing to pay for the damage, through his attorney, on the grounds that "just because Mr. Zippy was given a police citation for 'improper lane change' doesn't automatically imply responsibility for causing the collision, much less financial responsibility for repairing any damage".

OK.   

Edited July 2, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy