Eisbrenner Seagraves

[Chariots of Fire]

Danno:  Got your message regarding the Anniversary Series Seagraves that Mike Eisbrenner did back in the '80's.  I first met Mike at the Toledo Toy Show back when it was in Toledo at the Civic Center.  I think by then Mike was doing the second series of castings at that time and I remember purchasing one from him along with his pewter Ahrens-Fox piston pump kit.  Along the way I ended up with 2 other second series castings and one of the original "smoothies" as I will call it.  I thought the first one was numbered but it must have been the second series.  It was marked with a felt marker on the inside of the casting as #18.  The numbered one was used on one of the rigs I built.  

The first castings were smooth on the outside and may have been done as a slush mold judging from the rough quality of the inside of the casting.  You can see that in the photos below.

No detail whatsoever on the outside so it was up to the builder to mark out the windshield, side windows, scribe the door lines, hood and cut out the wheel well openings.  The back also had to be cut out if the sedan version was going to be built.  Notice also that above the rear fenders there is no hint of the treadplate that Seagrave used.  That came on the updated casting.

The later castings had raised trim and that shows up on the Detroit Sedan below.  The later castings were also much thicker,  and made of a different material something like alumilite.  When it is sanded little flecks of metal seem to show up.  The resin is also very brittle as was evidenced by one of the castings I obtained.  The corner of the fender had broken off and had to be glued back in place.  The trim lines being raised made it easy to cut out the various openings and get them lined up.  In actuality it may have been more correct to sand off the raised portion after the openings were cut out.  If you compare it to a 1:1 rig you don't see the rubber trim around the windshield.

In the rear view you can see the Seagrave treadplate that was applied to the top of the rear fender compartments.  I added my own to the side of the running boards and rear step.  If you look closely at the rear view of the Detroit piece you can see how thick the casting was at the sides of the body.  The top has a small lip to it that makes it appear even thicker.  When I did the windows I trimmed them close so I could place them nearer to the outside of the body.  Gluing them directly to the inside of the opening would have been hideous.  Information on how the Detroit sedans looked was obtained from Matthew Lee's books on Seagraves.

Here is actually the first Seagrave I did using the second series Eisbrenner casting.  This rig I saw for the first time at Croton-On-Hudson, New York at an annual fire muster.  It's a '62 model but contains some details that were not with the original when first delivered to River Edge such as the bright wheel rims, the raised deck gun and higher hose bed.  One of the most fancy Anniversary Seagraves around... and it still is around at River Edge, NJ.

I ended up doing another model of the River Edge rig and it is still on display at Company 2.  A real class outfit.

Here is a shot of two models with the original casting in the middle.  Now that I look at it I think Mike made some adjustments in the second series of castings in addition to the raised window outlines.  The unmarked windshield looks high and the corners of the hood appear much sharper. 

I'm glad I got these when I did and had the chance to build them up.  These were the days of real classic fire apparatus design.  

Edited July 10, 2016 by Chariots of Fire
deleted repeated photo

[Jim B]

Wow!  That really is an amazing transformation from that nondescript shell to those fantastic models!

[Chariots of Fire]

I wish I had a complete second edition shell, Jim.  You would really see the difference.  all I have left is the top and rear fenders portion of the casting as I cut the last one I had apart to do the second River Edge piece.  Imagine the shell that you see with the outline of the windshield, windows and wheel openings.  Also the scribing for the hood and doors.  Other than that what you see is what you had to work with.  I used AMT ALF frames under mine, changing the front enough so that it would extend toward the grill.  Even the curved grill trim and front bumper had to come from some other source.

[Aaronw]

Wow, based on your scratchbuilt models I have to wonder if the resin actually saved you any work.

I have a pair of resin Anniversary Seagraves (one open cab, one closed sedan type) that I believe came from Uptown Automotive. These are more along the lines of the resin kits most are used to, not simply a shell more or less shaped correctly. Amazing how resin casting has advanced from the early days, the best these days are at a level equal to mass market styrene kits and the resin much easier to work with.

[ChrisR]

Awesome! The bodies look like they are fibreglass instead of resin.

[Danno]

Here is a pair I just recently acquired - from the bottom shelf of a hobby store in Denver. They didn't know what they had.  I won't tell you what I paid for the pair - - it's nearly immoral.

One . . . just ONE . . . has been my "holy grail" for the better part of 34 years. 

 I was lucky to score one of the original fibreglass shells about 14-15 years ago, but since it was one of only a dozen or so, I've never been able to bring myself to cut into it.  Now that I've scored the pair of detailed resins, I will leave the fiberglass shell in its virginal condition. 

I suspect the amber resin may be the first generation of bodies marketed by Uptown Hobbies in New York, and I believe the white resin version may be the second generation.  Both were late 80's/early 90's while the fiberglass shell was very late 70's/very early 80's.  

[Danno]

As always, Charlie, your rigs are gorgeous.  I hope mine ends up half as nicely.

I also saw the one Greg built, and it too is beautiful.  I came upon a couple of old pix of an impressive one Carl Rees built.

 

Anybody else out there have one?   Built, in progress, or unstarted;  let us know, let us see it.

[Tesla]

I agree with Jim's response. What you've accomplished is nothing short of amazing!!! 

[gino]

beautiful !     the white one is absolutely stunning !

[David G.]

Wow, most impressive. I can only imagine the amount of work that went into those.

David G.

[Ken Gilkeson]

stunning beauties ;-))

[Chariots of Fire]

Awesome! The bodies look like they are fibreglass instead of resin.

The initial ones were fiberglas I think.  But the second edition ones like the two I built definitely were not.  As far as the builds go they are really no different than working with plastic bodies.  You just have to put a lot more into obtaining all of the other stuff that finally gets it done.  Mike Eisbrenner can be thanked for giving us the opportunity  to turn his castings into models.  Without his efforts there might not have been any.  As I indicated to Danno I think Mike worked for either GM or Ford and was aided at least in the beginning by some of the craftsmen to get his molding started.  Maybe Greg can verify that.  Hope he posts his rig as well!

Edited July 10, 2016 by Chariots of Fire

[GrumpyGrowly]

Beautiful Rigs Sir. I always learn a lot from you and your builds. I do share them once and a while with the other guys in my unit, -----CAL FIRE Northern Region Humboldt - Del Norte Unit--- . Great work, and thank you.

Jonathan

[Chariots of Fire]

May as well go all the way, eh?  Here are some photos of the second River Edge piece.  This one was done based on Seagrave drawings and some help from the River Edge FD, Co. 2.  When the model was delivered I got to ride the actual truck!  Awesome experience!

The hood on this one is hinged brass.  Nose is covered in Bare Metal Foil.  The hose body is slightly higher than on the first model and more closely resembles the modifications that River Edge did after a few years on the job.  Initially it had white rims and a standard height body.

See?  I actually did build two!

River Edge insisted the model had to have the American flag flying from the radio antenna.  You can see it in the last photo.  With the opening hood I was able to open up the horizontal holes in the hood sides and put a piece of material behind them which is prototypical and a detail I left out of the first two.

 

[GLMFAA1]

Well you two have dragged me into this thread. I also met Mike at the Toledo Toy Fairs back in the days of the Maumee recreation center madhouses.

Here is a pic of my version of his original casting that I got that had yellow release on the fiberglass.

Here is the two versions of the cabs I have an original fiberglass and second version # 56

My version of the safety sedan was one of the only three built by Seagraves. It is based on Youngstown Fire Department's 1958 truck

It is only rescue and carries only a booster pump and water tank. the hose bed area is crew and equipment space

Bits and parts are from the AMT ALF pumper, Aurora ALF Pumper, Don Mills emblems, Johan police vehicle, AMT van kit doom window, and plastic fireman sacrificed the masks and air packs

The siren was made using parts from the AMT ALF kit, front bumper was forced straightened ALF with chrome tape center

grill cross bars are evergreen square stock sanded to round.

The original truck had single headlight fender but was updated through the years with various rehabs including being repowered by a Cummins diesel which why there is an outside air cleaner. This model shows the last rehab paint scheme but with the old lettering the truck had

Danno: looking at your pics of your castings I can't say where they are from as they don't match what I know of Mike's castings

greg

 

[Chariots of Fire]

I'm glad you posted yours, Greg.  It confirms what I remembered that the second edition castings were numbered.  The photoetch "Seagrave" came as a package of three originally and were known as McKeans Miniatures.  There were two larger ones for the sides and a smaller one to use in the grill.  Don Mills picked up the McKeans line years ago including the treadplate that he still sells.  McKeans also produced the American LaFrance script and maltese cross in photoetch.

[Harry P.]

Charlie... you are one of the most talented modelers I have ever come across. Words alone can't describe what you have done here. You are to trucks what Gerald Wingrove is to cars. Just absolutely fantastic work. I have never seen better.

[GLMFAA1]

Charlie... you are one of the most talented modelers I have ever come across. Words alone can't describe what you have done here. You are to trucks what Gerald Wingrove is to cars. Just absolutely fantastic work. I have never seen better.

I have to agree with you and I have the great pleasure of knowing Charlie as a friend. We ( the fire apparatus nuts) often kid that he has a shrink ray machine or he needs to stop posting the real thing as models. Every time I hear that he has a new project started I believe all the Swiss watches in the world lose a second and all the Hasselblad cameras shutter . He is truly a great asset and mentor to scale model builders.

greg

 

[Harry P.]

I have to agree with you and I have the great pleasure of knowing Charlie as a friend. We ( the fire apparatus nuts) often kid that he has a shrink ray machine or he needs to stop posting the real thing as models. Every time I hear that he has a new project started I believe all the Swiss watches in the world lose a second and all the Hasselblad cameras shutter . He is truly a great asset and mentor to scale model builders.

greg

Yes he is. Most impressive.

[Danno]

Well said, Greg and Harry.  Add to that: He's a true gentleman who's always willing to share ideas, techniques, or 'brainstormpower.'  And ever quick to help a fellow modeler whenever he can.  Quite a guy.

 

 

[Harry P.]

Well said, Greg and Harry.  Add to that: He's a true gentleman who's always willing to share ideas, techniques, or 'brainstormpower.'  And ever quick to help a fellow modeler whenever he can.  Quite a guy.

Yes he is. In fact, he made some decals for my Dennis fire truck that were just beautiful. And his fee was very fair. I will always be thankful to him for the work he did helping me finish my Dennis.

[Chariots of Fire]

Hey, guys, this is getting a little bit heavy to handle.  I appreciate your kind comments, I really do.  But I want you all to know that if God gave me any talent it was meant as a gift to be shared.  I love modeling and have since I was a young boy but there is joy in sharing it and passing on to others things learned about building models over quite a few years now.

 In and of itself, model building is not very important; in fact in some ways it is a complete waste of the time that we have been given.  But in other ways it is a means of passing on to someone else blessings that have been conveyed upon us.  

I know of One who in his brief life of 33 years here on earth worked many of those years as a carpenter, a master craftsman and builder who worked with His hands.  I hope many of you know of whom I speak. I know that some of you already do and He can change your life in an instant.  God bless.

[V8 Trucker]

Awesome!

[DRIPTROIT 71]

Very impressive!

[Chariots of Fire]

Hey, Guys.  Anybody else out there have any info about Mike Eisbrenner and his Seagraves?  There must be more examples using his castings.