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Dumberer and dumbererer


Ace-Garageguy

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I'm glad you chimed in, Joe. You understand the problem perfectly.

And I'm certainly NOT saying ALL ASE or A&P licensed mechanics are bad...but a substantial number of them are worthless, no matter WHAT certs they have (even the ASE "Master" certification).

It's the same problem that New York City Schools have when 80% of their graduates can't read.

Article here:    http://www.educationviews.org/80-of-nyc-high-school-graduates-cant-read/

Sad part is though Bill, what I have learned over the years, was either taught to me by my now retired railroader father that grew up dirt poor on a farm post WW2, or have taught myself. I would never have tried something like that unless there was absolutely no option other than the scrap heap and I had no other transportation.

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I have used the term "parts changers" in the past when referring to service people that can't seem to fix a problem.

There will always be people out there that know how to troubleshoot a problem and there will always be people out there that replace parts till the problem goes away, unfortunately there will be more of the latter because practical knowledge of systems and raw talent is disappearing.

The apprentice/mentor system needs to return in a big way rather than the under-paid (or not paid) intern system.

Raw mechanical talent will always show itself... the kid that takes his toys apart and is able to put them together and have no parts left over is a prime candidate to nurture/educate into an engineer.

The kid that sits in front of an xbox all day may turn into a programmer but most likely will be taking your order at a fast food joint.

I gotta end this, it's getting too depressing.

 

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I have used the term "parts changers" in the past when referring to service people that can't seem to fix a problem.

There will always be people out there that know how to troubleshoot a problem and there will always be people out there that replace parts till the problem goes away, unfortunately there will be more of the latter because practical knowledge of systems and raw talent is disappearing.

The apprentice/mentor system needs to return in a big way rather than the under-paid (or not paid) intern system.

Raw mechanical talent will always show itself... the kid that takes his toys apart and is able to put them together and have no parts left over is a prime candidate to nurture/educate into an engineer.

The kid that sits in front of an xbox all day may turn into a programmer but most likely will be taking your order at a fast food joint.

I gotta end this, it's getting too depressing.

 

Ditto this. I work in IT, and the vast majority of people can't troubleshoot simple computer or network problems, but they can drone on for hours about playing games and frame rates. 

BTW, I was the kid who disassembled everything, and restored it to working condition, with no spare parts. It's still my first inclination when I acquire new things. Need to know how it works, even if I'm not the one who is going to fix it.

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I'm glad you chimed in, Joe. You understand the problem perfectly.

And I'm certainly NOT saying ALL ASE or A&P licensed mechanics are bad...but a substantial number of them are worthless, no matter WHAT certs they have (even the ASE "Master" certification).

It's the same problem that New York City Schools have when 80% of their graduates can't read.

Article here:    http://www.educationviews.org/80-of-nyc-high-school-graduates-cant-read/

Not quite accurate as far as "reading" goes. 80% of the students from a particular program needed remedial instruction to read at the appropriate college level. College level reading is quite a bit different than just reading. 

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Much as the idea of what McD's is selling usually turns me off, I do still occasionally (and very rarely) go there to get a taste of the past. There's something about the flavor of their little cheeseburgers that you can't get anywhere else (probably those eyeballs and intestines). And those extra-greasy steak-and-cheese bagels for breakfast...pure heaven.  :D

I'm waiting to see a product marked  "NEW AND IMPROVED --   NOW 50% LESS INSECT LARVA AND RODENT FECES"   Yes, the FDA has an allowable limit of such substances.  That means it's there.  And ya know,  if they figured out a way to eliminate it totally we'd all probably get sick because it's a part of our diet    :o

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Ditto this. I work in IT, and the vast majority of people can't troubleshoot simple computer or network problems, but they can drone on for hours about playing games and frame rates. 

BTW, I was the kid who disassembled everything, and restored it to working condition, with no spare parts. It's still my first inclination when I acquire new things. Need to know how it works, even if I'm not the one who is going to fix it.

I'm still that kid.  ;), and sometimes I make things better than when they started.

When you add in a degree in digital electronics, you're the guy that gets to fix the cheaply manufactured things your spouse buys... ;)

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Just an off-topic question for blunc and talon63.  Have you guys ever fixed a HDD that had issues?  Among lots of electronics, they do have turning discs, can they be fixed?

Just curious, over the years I've had lots of them just quit, after getting real slow. I often thought about opening one up.

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Opening a mechanical HDD outside of a dust-free (like seriously clean room dust-free) environment would be the end of the drive. This one of those things where there are truly no user serviceable parts inside. I will say I've had about 50/50 luck with putting an old HDD in a ziplock and sticking it in the freezer overnight. You have to act fast when you take it out, and it's a one-shot deal, but if you can get it slaved and it fires up, it may last long enough to copy everything to another drive. After that, it's toast. 

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Allen is correct, there is no easy fix even if you know what you are doing.

Data recovery on cranky hard drives is usually not worth the cost mainly because they can charge you whatever they want to...you are at their mercy.

I have seen some places that can replace the hard drive circuit board and get the drive working but...no guarantees that what was on the drive platters will still be readable in a way that you could make use of it.

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BTW, I was the kid who disassembled everything, and restored it to working condition, with no spare parts. It's still my first inclination when I acquire new things. Need to know how it works, even if I'm not the one who is going to fix it.

Me too, though for a couple decades now I've mainly only done it with guns. B)

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Not quite accurate as far as "reading" goes. 80% of the students from a particular program needed remedial instruction to read at the appropriate college level. College level reading is quite a bit different than just reading. 

I disagree adamantly. Reading at a college freshman level is identical to reading at a high-school-graduate level.

Think about it. You graduate from HS, you have summer off, you start college. SAME reading level.

What the report actually SAYS is this: "According to officials from City University of New York, a full 80 percent of high school graduates in New York City can’t read when they graduate. As CBS Local reports, “They had to re-learn basic skills – reading, writing, and math – first before they could begin college courses.”

Article here:   http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/03/07/officials-most-nyc-high-school-grads-need-remedial-help-before-entering-cuny-community-colleges/

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I disagree adamantly. Reading at a college freshman level is identical to reading at a high-school-graduate level.

Think about it. You graduate from HS, you have summer off, you start college. SAME reading level.

What the report actually SAYS is this: "According to officials from City University of New York, a full 80 percent of high school graduates in New York City can’t read when they graduate. As CBS Local reports, “They had to re-learn basic skills – reading, writing, and math – first before they could begin college courses.”

Article here:   http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/03/07/officials-most-nyc-high-school-grads-need-remedial-help-before-entering-cuny-community-colleges/

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/03/new-york-high-school-graduates-data/317599/

The original headline is incorrect. Reading at a 4th grade level is all that is required for USA Today, but it's still reading. Is it good that 80% of New York City high school students that are going to CUNY need remedial classes? No. But it's not 80% of ALL students. 

 

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... Reading at a 4th grade level is all that is required for USA Today, but it's still reading...

Kinda says something about the value of the content in USA Today, and the competence of the average USA Today reader, doesn't it?

"See Bobby chase the ball. Chase, Bobby, chase. Jean likes to see Bobby chase the ball too." is also "reading" by your definition, but it's hardly what I'd expect of a HS graduate. And it's useless in any kind of ADULT context.

If this level of literacy is all this country expects and accepts from its populace, there's no way in hell anyone is going to "Make America Great Again".

But hey, let's defend illiteracy and ignorance. I guess it's more PC to defend it than to wonder WHY it's acceptable in today's society and HOW it came to be so.

 

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Kinda says something about the value of the content in USA Today, and the competence of the average USA Today reader, doesn't it?

"See Bobby chase the ball. Chase, Bobby, chase. Jean likes to see Bobby chase the ball too." is also "reading" by your definition, but it's hardly what I'd expect of a HS graduate. And it's useless in any kind of ADULT context.

If this level of literacy is all this country expects and accepts from its populace, there's no way in hell anyone is going to "Make America Great Again".

But hey, let's defend illiteracy and ignorance. I guess it's more PC to defend it than to wonder WHY it's acceptable in today's society and HOW it came to be so.

 

Nobody here defending illiteracy, if that's how you read my comments. I was just pointing out the hyperbole in the original headline and content of the related article. Explaining, or clarifying, doesn't equate to defending any of the actual short comings of the school systems involved. If somebody tells me they can't read, that means they are illiterate - meaning they can look at a page of words and garner no information

I hold myself and children to high standards. My recent graduate was valedictorian and managed a 4.0 in AP and college level classes through high school. She was accepted into a very competitive university nursing program and is now in the top of her class. My younger girls are both above average and have taken AP and advanced classes - my youngest is in second year Spanish as a middle school student. There are great opportunities for students in public schools and it's sad that many children can't, don't, or won't take advantage. My kids do have friends with the same opportunity they have that squander the chance. Parenting plays an important part in placing acedemics as a priority in young people's lives. 

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Nobody here defending illiteracy, if that's how you read my comments. I was just pointing out the hyperbole in the original headline and content of the related article. Explaining, or clarifying, doesn't equate to defending any of the actual short comings of the school systems involved. If somebody tells me they can't read, that means they are illiterate - meaning they can look at a page of words and garner no information...

There's this thing called functional illiteracy, which is really what I'm talking about, and what the articles I cite above are talking about. Being able to sound out words from letters is a far cry from understanding what the words mean when strung together, especially when sentences get longer and more complex than "the cat is white".

From Wikipedia:

Functional illiteracy is reading and writing skills that are inadequate "to manage daily living and employment tasks that require reading skills beyond a basic level".Functional illiteracy is contrasted with illiteracy in the strict sense, meaning the inability to read or write simple sentences in any language.

Functional illiteracy is rampant, and a fair number of those "educated" individuals who pass as "journalists" today are right on the edge.

In 2015, approximately 30 million adult Americans were considered to be "functionally illiterate". That's almost 10% of the population, and I would personally posit it's much higher, depending of course on the standard one uses to define functional illiteracy.

Daily I encounter people whose ability to communicate through the written word (beyond something like "UR L8") is so pathetically poor as to be almost scary in its implications as to the the general level of competency of the populace as a whole. Often these are "professional" people, and that's the scariest part of all.

Maybe I should have referred to "poor reading comprehension" rather than "illiteracy" for clarity though. The poor showing using that definition is every bit as appalling.

From a 2014 publication:

According to the most recently released results from the National Assessment of Educational Progress, poor reading comprehension is rampant in the United States. A basic level of proficiency is defined as having “partial mastery of prerequisite knowledge and skills that are fundamental for proficient work at each grade” (, p. 6.). In the US, nearly one in every three fourth-grade students and one in four eighth-grade students is below even this basic level. Only about one out of three students score at the proficient or advanced levels at either grade.

This, of course, explains the functional-illiteracy of a large percentage of HS graduates.

 

I hold myself and children to high standards... Parenting plays an important part in placing acedemics as a priority in young people's lives. 

With this, I agree 100%. A kid who hasn't been taught to value learning and knowledge well in advance of going to school is doomed to a life of slinging burgers or changing oil, at best. 

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Again, I don't put this stuff up to make fun of or criticise anyone.

My intent is to try to make someone THINK, look around, wonder what's going on, and maybe do something positive to try to fix it.

Doing something about it, even on a small local scale, will be a large part of my own post-retirement reason for continuing to breathe.

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Well, the big push these days seems to be to bring manufacturing jobs back to the US- who needs intelligence when all you're going to do for five decades is punch a time clock and press the "start" button on some conveyor system? Being a little "educationally disadvantaged" wouldn't be so bad in that case- you wouldn't have any real inkling of how far you're being bent over the barrel. 

Yes, that statement was mostly just me cracking open the pressure relief valve on the part of my brain where all my bitter sarcasm comes from, but that being said, thoughts like that and seeing research like this (and wondering if there's any connection) do keep me up at night. Sheesh- thinking can be a real downer. I can almost understand why nobody would want to do it. 

On the plus side? Maybe this means in 50 years I'll look like some kind of guru because I'll be the only one at the plant who can read and understand the MSDS sheets, or possibly explain the nuances of what that "No Cell Phone Use" sign up front means. I'll regale the break room with stories of how we used to have to write stuff down by hand, perhaps using the archaic alphabet called "cursive". Someone will ask "What is cursive" and I'll take a deep breath and... okay, I think that bitter sarcasm relief valve has a slow leak. :)

Here's what I believe. There are always going to be people who are, shall we say, "less than exceptional". I'm not talking about people with learning disabilities, or any other types of conditions that would make learning to a higher level possible. Even then, I know mentally challenged people who are almost genius at times. I know a guy who can't even read or write his own name, but he can do long division in his head. We called him The Human Calculator. I'm not talking about that. That's not the person's fault- that's a disability. I'm talking about a lack of drive from an otherwise completely capable person. An awful lot of people just don't see what I'd consider to be fundamental knowledge to be important. I went to school with a guy who was going to be a farmer, just like the last five generations of his family. The way he saw it, why did he need to learn math? Or reading? Cows don't care if you know how to read, crops don't care that 2+2=4. Turns out, his lack of drive translated pretty well into his (ultimately abortive) farming career. So now, he's practically about as employable as a second-grader. And he blames everyone but himself for his failures... but that's a rant for some other time. :rolleyes: And if they aren't interested in mastering the basics of, well... the basics? They're pretty much going to be screwed in anything above that. Little wonder that nobody gets my Renaissance jokes... which you'd find hilarious if only you hadn't skipped history class to do donuts in the parking lot with Steve Zdunowski in his beat-up '81 Delta 88 that always reeked of burned oil and stale reefer. 

Is the number that high? I have no idea. Every study (scientific or not) most likely has some kind of agenda attached to it. And, those of us with reading comprehension and critical thinking skills often wonder "what ELSE could be inferred from these results"? (Tin foil hat relief valve talking there.)  But it's always seemed to me that there are an awful lot of "low-drive" individuals out there in the wild. No scientific backing there- just my own observations and plain old gut feeling. Lack of drive, or motivation if you prefer. I believe that is the real problem. I'm not sure if it's an American thing or a Human thing, but it seems like many people just want to squeak by on the absolute minimum amount of effort. Hell, I'm guilty of that from time to time myself. I think if we could figure out the cause of that, we'd be pretty well set. We don't need to encourage everyone to be exceptional, but I think we need to make a more focused effort to get people to see what they're really capable of, rather than just doing the bare-bones level of effort.

But, that would require drive and ambition. Ugh...

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