Revell '70 Charger

[High octane]

Like Revell did this kit with an Hemi engine, if I want a 440 six pack, what kit could be a good donor?

I just have that 70 Superbee kit in my head that has a 440 six pack but, it is an AMT kit.

Should the motor fit in the Revell 70 Charger?

YES.

[Mr mopar]

Ballzano's hobby warehouse said they will have them in by the end of the month ......Just can't wait !

[High octane]

Ballzano's hobby warehouse said they will have them in by the end of the month ......Just can't wait !

Did they say which month?

[CapSat 6]

Like Revell did this kit with an Hemi engine, if I want a 440 six pack, what kit could be a good donor?

I just have that 70 Superbee kit in my head that has a 440 six pack but, it is an AMT kit.

Should the motor fit in the Revell 70 Charger?

Good question! Should it fit? Well in 1:1, the 440 Six Pack engine will go where a Hemi once was. 

I looked at an unbuilt Fast & Furious Charger (it presumably will have the same block, heads, etc. as the new stock R/T). I pulled out a semi assembled AMT '70 Super Bee Six Pack motor (heads/valve covers/water pump/oil pan attached to the block). And found...

...that width-wise, there will be no problem. 

The transmission is approximately the same length. 

You might have to tweak how high it sits by either grinding down the motor mounts on the chassis, and/or the pads on the sides of the engine. Revell Hemis seem to have a nice way of tucking way down under the hood. Most Six Packs in scale don't seem to. 

Also- the 440 Six Pack block is longer than the Hemi Block by about 1/32". It's enough where it could be a problem. 

I myself would go for this swap. I would try to jam the whole block and tranny assembly back a little bit, shorten the driveshaft, and try to drop it down lower on the motor mounts a little. I think that will help with any problems you might have fitting the fanbelt and accessories up front, although you will have to watch where the rear of the air cleaner hits the firewall too.

I would definitely try to dial this in before you get the engine wired, painted and assembled, from what I saw tonight, I would not call this a drop in, but it should be possible with some careful adjustments & fitting.

[Mr mopar]

Did they say which month?

sept !

[High octane]

Good question! Should it fit? Well in 1:1, the 440 Six Pack engine will go where a Hemi once was. 

I looked at an unbuilt Fast & Furious Charger (it presumably will have the same block, heads, etc. as the new stock R/T). I pulled out a semi assembled AMT '70 Super Bee Six Pack motor (heads/valve covers/water pump/oil pan attached to the block). And found...

...that width-wise, there will be no problem. 

The transmission is approximately the same length. 

You might have to tweak how high it sits by either grinding down the motor mounts on the chassis, and/or the pads on the sides of the engine. Revell Hemis seem to have a nice way of tucking way down under the hood. Most Six Packs in scale don't seem to. 

Also- the 440 Six Pack block is longer than the Hemi Block by about 1/32". It's enough where it could be a problem. 

I myself would go for this swap. I would try to jam the whole block and tranny assembly back a little bit, shorten the driveshaft, and try to drop it down lower on the motor mounts a little. I think that will help with any problems you might have fitting the fanbelt and accessories up front, although you will have to watch where the rear of the air cleaner hits the firewall too.

I would definitely try to dial this in before you get the engine wired, painted and assembled, from what I saw tonight, I would not call this a drop in, but it should be possible with some careful adjustments & fitting.

Sounds like some good advice, thanks.

[unclescott58]

Ballzano's hobby warehouse said they will have them in by the end of the month ......Just can't wait !

I've just recently purchased a few kits from Ballzano on eBay. So far, I've been very happy with both their prices, and speed of their service and shipping. Since you indicate they will be carrying it, I'll be watching to buy the Charger from them near the end of this month.

[Rob Hall]

For a regular 440 (or 383) the Revell '69 Daytona seems like the ideal source.   And vice versa to do a Hemi Daytona. 

[1972coronet]

CapSat 6 - I wonder how well (or not) the 440 Mag / TorqueFlite from the AMT 1971 Charger R/T would fit in-place of the Revell Hemi / 4-speed ? Granted , one would end up with an incorrect combination of air conditioning / Dana 60 -- should one decide to build the 440 "box stock" , that is .

Similarly , the aforementioned 383 / 440 (also T-Flite equipped) from the Revell 1968-1969 Dart "could" work , which will also give the proper Super Track Pak ( or is it Super Performance Axle Package with the T-Flite ? ) .

[CapSat 6]

CapSat 6 - I wonder how well (or not) the 440 Mag / TorqueFlite from the AMT 1971 Charger R/T would fit in-place of the Revell Hemi / 4-speed ? Granted , one would end up with an incorrect combination of air conditioning / Dana 60 -- should one decide to build the 440 "box stock" , that is .

Similarly , the aforementioned 383 / 440 (also T-Flite equipped) from the Revell 1968-1969 Dart "could" work , which will also give the proper Super Track Pak ( or is it Super Performance Axle Package with the T-Flite ? ) .

I will probably compare these engines at some point. All are really excellent renditions of the B/RB engines, really the best in scale. 

I have noticed that the overall outside dimensions of the "same" engines in scale from different kits often do not match up size wise. I think this is a function of each kit being designed on it's own, and for some kits once they get down to the engine bay, the designers might have to reduce the dimensions of some engines to ensure that it will all fit. Also, I think I have read somewhere recently where a certain seasoned kit designer has admitted to scaling up certain engines in some kits in order to fill the engine bay better.

From what I remember, the Hemi and 440 engines from the Revell 68 and 69 Chargers are a little on the large side compared to these others (although in my opinion these Charger engines are probably the best ones by way of looks). I think it's partly because the transmission is separate for these engines, so it adds just a little length. 

The Hemi in the new 70 Charger looks a little on the small (short) side- just like the Hemi in the '67 GTX, Charger and Coronet & the '70 Hemi Cuda.

I think the 383/440 from the Dart kit is also on the smaller side. The 440 from the '71 also compares to it. 

I had a mess of these engines out and was looking at them a few weeks ago. I'm probably going to get them out again soon and see how the all compare. I'll be sure to publish my research!

If I were going to swap something into the '70 Charger, I would probably reach for the '71 Charger engine because it has more accessories, and a more appropriate air cleaner. 

To your point about A/C - I would probably grab an 8-3/4 from the '67 GTX/ Coronet kit, or the Dart kit. I try to pick up the Darts, GTX's & 68-69 Chargers for parts whenever I can, because the chassis & engines are very, very nice in these kits, as you know. ?

 

 

[1972coronet]

Other than the way the distributor mounts on the Revell 383 from the 1969-come-1968 Darts , those engines are perfect . Naturally , the left ( driver-side ) exhaust manifold is A-body-specific ( as in the "1:1" version ) ; then there's the change in rocker covers ( colloq. , "valve covers" ) between 1969 and 1970 ( vis-a-vis the C.A.P. of 1970 & later ) .

The build-up article in Scale Auto from a few years back of the then-new Revell 1970 Hemi'Cuda was excellent ; however , I would be remiss if I didn't mention the 440 / T-Flite swap by the builder / author of the article :

- A/C with Dana 60 ( okay , perhaps it was a dealer add-on )

- "440 Magnum" air cleaner "pie tin" (decal) versus the correct "440 Super Commando" 

In spite of that , worse 'faux pas' have happened , mostly manufacturer oversights :

- 1966 & earlier brake master cylinders on 1967 & newer models 

- Manual trans with automatic pedals and / or shifter ( e.g. , the MPC A-body annuals , all years )

- Aftermarket air cleaners ( e.g. , the Monogram 1970 SS-454 Chevelle with Cowl Induction ; the 1971 "Satellite" with Edelbrock intake , and open-element air cleaner )

- Hemi / 4-speed / 8 ³/₄ combo ( Monogram 1971 Hemi'Cuda , every iteration ; Revell 1967 GTX / Coronet / Charger ) 

Regardless of these picky annoyances -- esp the post facto examples -- I love each and every one of those kits !

[Mr mopar]

I notice that the pistol grip shifter is wrong for a console car ,but if you leave out the console the shifter will be correct for a non-console car . but any of the monogram 1/24 Superbird, GTX, Roadrunner ...ect  has the correct console sifter .

[CapSat 6]

I notice that the pistol grip shifter is wrong for a console car ,but if you leave out the console the shifter will be correct for a non-console car . but any of the monogram 1/24 Superbird, GTX, Roadrunner ...ect  has the correct console sifter .

Hmmm...I would figure that if the bend in the shifter is not too severe, you might be able to cut it down to a correct console sized shifter. You would hope that it wasn't a mistake, and that maybe they made it that way to give builders more options...

[CapSat 6]

I did some comparison of a few engines, going back to what was said about swaps earlier in the thread. 

This fire pic shows (top to bottom): top- AMT 440 from the '70 Coronet Super Bee and '69 GTX kits, 2nd: Hemi from the Revell Fast & Furious '70 Charger (we're going to assume for the moment that the upcoming R/T kit will be using the same block), 3rd: 383-440 from the Revell '68 and '69 Dodge Dart kits, and bottom: new tool Revell '70 Hemi 'Cuda. 

My lens is not going to show this too well, but I have observed that like I said above, there is some extra length to the AMT 440 block. I wouldn't say it will be a bad candidate for the swap, just that you might have to be prepared for a little tweaking. It does look like the engine front for the 440 engine is a little slimmer than that of the Revell '70 Charger Hemi, so you might get a little room back on that. 

It does also look like the Revell 383-440 Dart engine's length is more or less the same, so- probably a good fit. 

It seems like the '70 Charger Hemi and the '70 Cuda Hemi size up very similarly, so what will fit one will probably fit the other, too.

[Rob Hall]

How about the 440 from the Revell '69 Charger Daytona?  Would think it would be a good fit.. I think I'm going to do a swap between the Daytona and '70 Charger, so I can have a 440 Charger and a Hemi Daytona. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Rob Hall

[CapSat 6]

How about the 440 from the Revell '69 Charger Daytona?  Would think it would be a good fit..

That's coming up soon, Rob! 

[CapSat 6]

Trouble uploading! ?  

So I changed it into a B&W pic..."so it would be there in black and white". ?

From the top: 

1) AMT '68 Road Runner/'69 GTX/'70 Super Bee Hemi. 

2) AMT '69 GTX/'70 Super Bee 440

3) Revell '70 Charger Hemi

4) Revell '69 Charger 440 (with separate 4 speed transmission joined to it)

5) Revell '69 Charger Hemi   

Remember in all of this that while B/RB and Hemi blocks aren't exactly the same in 1:1, their overall length is about the same. The Hemi's added width comes from the heads. The deck height of the B (350-361-383-400) is lower than the RB (some early 383-413-426w-440) and Hemi blocks, but that difference in scale is probably negligible.

Also, these observations are from basic eyeballing. I didn't put dial calipers to anything. 

Granted, these aren't great pics. What I have seen here though is that the AMT Hemi is about the same length as the AMT 440 (makes sense), which has, you'll remember is a smidge longer than the Revell '70 Hemi. 

The Revell '69 Charger 440 block does seem a bit longer than the Revell '70 Hemi. It's also longer than the Hemi block from the same ('68-'69) kit! 

I do want to say that I think the Revell '69 Charger 440 is probably the BEST RB block I have ever seen in scale. Will it fit the '70 Charger? I don't know for sure, but I would try it. I think at least the height will not be a concern, because the '69's, like the '70's have a similarly low hood. 

I have a theory as to why the 440 and the Hemi from the Revell '68-'69 Chargers are sized differently: I think it's because the designers at Revell have been working off of the same 1/25 Hemi design since they worked up the engine in the '67 GTX. It's not a bad thing, as it's a really nice engine, but I think maybe it's slightly underscale. I did not have one of those handy, but I seem to remember it's sized and proportioned very similarly to all of these other Revell engines, and also, the Hemis' dimensions from their 1/25 Charger, Cuda and GTX kits seem to match each other so well. They probably took a clean sheet approach for the 440 engine in that kit. I think the '69 Dart came later, so that might have been yet another clean sheet. 

[CapSat 6]

Final pic: 

1) AMT Hemi

2) AMT 440

3) Revell '70 Charger Hemi

4) AMT '71 Charger 440/ "Hemi"

5) Revell '69 Charger 440

6) Revell '69 Charger Hemi

Here, it looks like the AMT '71 Charger 440 is sized pretty similarly to the Revell '70 Hemi. I have Hemi in parentheses above for #4, because this was offered as a Hemi in the Street Machine variant. It used the same block as the stock 440 R/T, but the intake looked really funky, and IIRC, it used the same exhaust manifolds as the 440 (incorrect!), so the "Hemi" from that kit wouldn't be a good swap candidate in my opinion (but the '71 440 would probably be a great candidate). 

Edited September 24, 2017 by CapSat 6

[CapSat 6]

Note too that the transmissions are almost all the same length. The AMT trans seems to be a little longer (tailshaft), all of the Revell trannies seem to be uncannily exactly the same, and the AMT '71 Charger tranny appears a little shorter. 

I think what this tells me is that probably each of these will work as a swap in for the Revell '70 Charger, but that the AMT 440 might need some tweaking like I said before. 

The length might not be a concern anyway, because the F&F version utilizes a blower belt, so more room would be needed up front for that. 

My big concern would actually be intake height, especially with the 440 Six Pack engine, as these Charger hoods can be a little unforgiving. 

One last thing this is telling me is that I have too many unbuilt cars and engines on my hands! 

Edited September 24, 2017 by CapSat 6

[1972coronet]

Thanks for sharing your observations and research with us , Bill !

I'm pretty certain that the air cleaner assembly for the 440 Six Pack in the ( "1:1" ) 1970 Charger was unique to that model --- perhaps just the base or the lid ? Never-the-less , it'd be nice to see what kit's air cleaner would work .

The other (to me) annoying part of the c.1990 (ad seq.) Revell 426 Hemi is that (stupid) 4-paddle fan ! Absolutely incorrect for 1966 - 1971 Hemi , regardless of model / axle package / other options .

 

[CapSat 6]

No problem John! Saying that you seem to have a great interest in these cars and parts, like myself, is a bit of an understatement!

I think the air cleaner in the '70 Super Bee/ '69 GTX is the only game in town for a 1/25 440 Six Pack. 

I think the one in the 1/24 Revell '71 GTX looks better, and I would at least try that one out, but some people are averse to mixing scales. I figure if it looks right, use it! 

My favorite air cleaner in this style is the one that came with the Hemis in the Jo Han '69 Road Runner and '70 Superbird- but it looks like the wingnut locations would not work for a 440 Six Pack. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by CapSat 6

[Mr mopar]

No problem John! Saying that you seem to have a great interest in these cars and parts, like myself, is a bit of an understatement!

I think the air cleaner in the '70 Super Bee/ '69 GTX is the only game in town for a 1/25 440 Six Pack. 

I think the one in the 1/24 Revell '71 GTX looks better, and I would at least try that one out, but some people are averse to mixing scales. I figure if it looks right, use it! 

My favorite air cleaner in this style is the one that came with the Hemis in the Jo Han '69 Road Runner and '70 Superbird- but it looks like the wingnut locations would not work for a 440 Six Pack. 

I believe that the Johan air cleaner is the best looking oval air cleaner out there ,and hemi and six pack's used the same lid .

[CapSat 6]

I believe that the Johan air cleaner is the best looking oval air cleaner out there ,and hemi and six pack's used the same lid .

it was in my brain that they were different. It was from years of thumbing through the Year One catalog, looking at things that I could never afford for my particular car. 

I double-checked their catalog online, and what I found is that they sell two different reproductions for Six Pack and Hemi. It looks like the posts for the wing nuts are in different places. I seem to remember the kit parts looking like this, too, but you might be able to use one for the other in scale...the first is their listed illusrarion for the Six Pack lid, the 2nd is for their Hemi lid. I'm not sure I would call the Year One catalog the absolute last word on parts applications, but it has never steered me wrong before with my 360 and 383 cars...

 

[CapSat 6]

You can also see here how both items (AMT Six Pack, gray, left and Jo Han Hemi, Turquoise, right) capture the same bolt locations...and how nice the Jo Han item really is! 

[Mr mopar]

To Me the Johan air cleaner lid  has that just right look to it , but I know the bottoms are totally different .