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See The Usa In Your Electric Chevorlet


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Oh yea, the tar pits! They were a fascinating place to visit when I was a kid. I wonder if the museum has dire warnings as to the dangers of fossil fuels now. 

 I bet the people in Puerto Rico would not be real happy with waiting however long it will take to get back online to charge-up as opposed to an hour waiting for gas.

Now THAT is a very valid comment. One can only wonder how much more devastating that would be to the rebuilding. I guess the military would always have gasoline or diesel powered vehicles. And comments as to the impact on the electrical power grid......I think many times the folks that push for these kinds of things are being selfish, wanting to make themselves feel like good conservators of the planet without looking at long-term consequences. 

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Check out the Orson Welles movie "Touch of Evil."  Set in a "Mexican border town," but actually shot in Venice, CA.  Known today as an upscale beach community (and former home of Revell!).  You can see working oil wells and puddles of oil by-products bubbling out of the ground.  That movie was made in 1958.

Not that oil was a problem for everybody.  I once had a great chat with an elderly woman who worked as a tour guide at the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles.  Her family had been in the city since the late 19th century.  Much of downtown L.A. had oil under it, and every month she still got a payment from an oil company for the mineral rights under their property.  Those payments had been going on for decades. 

That was a good movie.

I grew up in Oklahoma before moving to Southern Cal so around oil most of my life. One of my great aunt's had a pump jack right outside one of the bedroom windows. Her comment was went it got noisy was 'I just think every squeak is another 50 cents on the check'...and this was in the late 50's when that would buy you lots of different things for a half dollar. 3 squeaks and my jerk cousin had a new AMT kit. And it hasn't been that good the last couple of years, but especially being retired now that little check that shows up at least every other month from the family land is 'pennies from heaven'. Now with that will say that getting oil out of the ground, transporting and refining is a dangerous and pretty dirty industry and has got us into some not real good political alliances. But haven't seen enough being done on what it takes to get the materials needed for those high tech batteries out of the ground and how do you handle them when their life cycle is up. And what about when a couple of the electric cars crashes and scatters batteries, etc. down a couple lanes of the highway?

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In my opinion, GM has been making seriously questionable decisions for a long time. Of note:

1) Their failure to incorporate a camber-limiting device on the original 1960 Corvair, a cheap and reliable fix for the odd handling of swing-axle-equipped cars (and advocated by the engineers working on the thing) was a short-sighted cost-driven disaster.

2) Their subsequent failure to defend the entirely-redesigned and great handling '65 and later Corvair, and instead to focus on looking for things in Nader's personal life that could be used to discredit him was just pathetic. A well-engineered and forward looking small car was allowed to die a quiet, slow death.

3) Dumping Oldsmobile. Oldsmobile was one of the 4 oldest car company names on Earth. While Mercedes makes good use of their heritage as one of the founders of the automobile industry, it never seemed to occur to GM to do likewise with Olds. The division had a significant racing and performance presence in the '50s and '60s. An Olds V8 powered the very famous Stone-Woods-Cook-Willys gasser. They built the first turbocharged production car in 1962 (Turbo Jetfire, which had a 215 alloy V8 with water injection) and the first modern front-wheel-drive US car in 1966, the Toronado. In the late '80s-early '90s the Olds Aerotech set impressive records with race-prepped versions of both the Quad 4 and Northstar production engines. In the early 2000s, I was in the body shop biz, and was very impressed with the engineering and build quality of the Aurora...much better than most of GM's other concurrent crapp. But why oh why would anyone want a division with a heritage of engineering excellence in the lineup? Gone in 2004.

4) Dumping Pontiac. Of course, Pontiac built the GTO in 1964, the world's first targeted factory hot-rod. The engine that powered it is a classic, originally to have been introduced in 1953 as one of GM's lineup of entirely new overhead-valve V8s. The same engine went on to many racing victories in a variety of venues, and 4 of them (supercharged) powered Micky Thompson's Challenger I  to become the fastest wheel-driven car ever built in 1960, running slightly over 406 MPH. Pontiac's original Tempest placed the gearbox in the rear (with a front engine) and had all independent suspension...a specification later featured by some of the world's premium sports marques, including Porsche and Ferrari. Pontiac's inline overhead-cam 6 was technically interesting, with one of the earliest uses of a toothed rubber belt to drive the cam AND use of hydraulic lifters on an OHC engine, both now industry standard practice. Pontiac's engineers built prototype OHC versions of the V8, too. The little Fiero, America's only ever transverse-mid-engined sports car, evolved into a very competent and good looking machine by the end of its run. And the last GTO, from 2004, an LS-powered Holden with all independent suspension is a fine, world-class factory hot-rod worthy of its original predecessor. The Solstice was a fine little sports car too, more in the Euro / Asian tradition, and sold over 65,000 units. But all this coolness was allowed to wither on the vine, and crapp like the Aztek were put in the lineup. Pontiac was shot in the head in 2009.

5) Dumping EMD. General Motors Electro-Motive Division was largely responsible for the dieselization of America's railroads, beginning in the 1930s. EMD is almost universally regarded as having built simply the best diesel locomotives on the planet...and some of the most iconic, like the F series and the GP-SD series. Many EMD locomotives that are 60 years old are still in daily use, a testament to the excellence of the engineering and design. Why would anyone want one of the most important players in US railroad manufacturing history, again with a legacy of superb engineering, under the corporate banner? Sold off in 2005, EMD was acquired by Caterpillar in 2010.

Now, the design of a reliable ignition switch seems to be beyond GM's corporate capability. Granted the Corvette is still a world-class supercar, but it's hardly representative of the company as a whole.

Deciding to dump the IC engine for a total-electric future may well be another costly mistake.

Of course, to most consumers these days, a car is an appliance much like a toaster or a fridge. It stands to reason that a non-gearhead corporate culture would evolve to play to that market.

 

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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So what happens when you want to go on vacation that is a 12 hour drive into the outskirts of Ontario and go fishing for the week and find the batteries dead?  

You run the "vacation with fishing" app on your iPhone, preferably while riding in your self-driving glorified golfcart to Walmart to stock up on useless Chinese-made junk. 

Brave new world indeed.

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Bill that limited drive time in the Electric car is what I detest. When Detroit Electric made electric cars in the early 1900's they could go as far as the new electric cars that came out less than 10 years ago. How is this even a break through?  I can not get off work on friday jump into a tesla and drive 13 hours to your house straight through and go to the local Model Show with you if this becomes the norm. I can do it now in my F150 and went all the way to Daytona in a 1966 Cadillac Hearse back in 1988. That caddy had a 16 gallon tank or less, what a pain. It was a pain but just had to refill more often, not a 3 to 4 hour recharge wait though. 

Edited by 1930fordpickup
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...  What will power the big equipment it takes to build the roads and do farming?

Several very viable options.

1) Biodiesel. Conventional diesel engines running on completely renewable bio-derived fuel oil. Interestingly, these can be made from the algae used to clean CO2 out of coal-fired powerplant flue gas. Even an old Mercedes diesel will run happily on Crisco.

2) Diesels modified to run on gaseous fuels. Suitably modified diesels run very well on compressed natural gas. They can also run on pure hydrogen, and as the weight of construction equipment is not terribly important, onboard storage of hydrogen fuel is quite possible.

3) Hydrogen fuel-cell hybrids. Several manufacturers are hard at work developing hybrid tech for heavy trucks, and other heavy-equipment uses, including locomotives.

https://www.kenworth.com/news/news-releases/2017/may/advanced-prototype-projects/

 

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...  I can not get off work on friday jump into a tesla and drive 13 hours to your house straight through and go to the local Model Show with you if this becomes the norm. I can do it now in my F150 and went all the way to Daytona in a 1966 Cadillac Hearse back in 1988. That caddy had a 16 gallon tank or less, what a pain. It was a pain but just had to refill more often, not a 3 to 4 hour recharge wait though. 

I'm with you, but I think those of us who consider a long road-trip to be fun, especially a straight-through nonstop event, are a dying breed...and have been few and far between for some time. Last time I drove cross-country (here to almost-Nevada, Az.) was in a Geo Metro 3-cylinder. At 40 MPG, she'd go just far enough on a 10-gallon tank for me to need to get out and stretch anyway, but it only took a couple of minutes to fill her. Grab a chemically-preserved burger, a bag-o-chips, a coffee, and on the road again. Just won't work with an electric.

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Two words: Age, Prostate.

Whoa, I'm well into 68 now and still don't think twice about jumping in the car and doing the Phoenix to LA non-stop. The primary thing for going to Central Coast or Bay Area is I don't have anybody to check on my cats, so 3 days is the max I like to leave them. Yes they pretty much run the show, I just pay the mortgage so they have a place to sleep.

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In my opinion, GM has been making seriously questionable decisions for a long time. Of note:

. . .

Deciding to dump the IC engine for a total-electric future may well be another costly mistake.

Of course, to most consumers these days, a car is an appliance much like a toaster or a fridge. It stands to reason that a non-gearhead corporate culture would evolve to play to that market.

 

As I recall hearing recently, GM is not the only company which stated they will go all electric in several years. I think one of the other companies might be Volvo (or whoever owns them now). That is another problem, there were so many buy-outs and mergers in the automotive manufacturing that all the car brand lines are blurred.

Going back to the original topic, just because they say they will do something doesn't matter that it will actually happens. They can change their minds or have unforeseen problems fulfilling their promise.  It is not like someone will shut them down if they don't go 100% electric.

As far as cars being appliances that is true. Most of the Millennials, and even younger crowd, would rather not drive. Gone are the days teens wanted to get away from home and make out in the back seat of their own cars. Instead, they are constantly glued to their smart phone with the need to socialize every second of their waking day.   Forget electric cars, I predict that in 20 years people won't need smart phones - they will all receive a brain interface implant allowing direct communication with others by thoughts. No more tiny keyboards and sore thumbs - all you will have to to is think. :)

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As far as cars being appliances that is true. Most of the Millennials, and even younger crowd, would rather not drive.:)

Boy, isn't that the truth. When I was young I cruised the strip and hung out with my buddies. My millenial son plays RPG video games and face-somethings his social network followers. There is close to zero interest in driving, and he's 26 already. 

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As far as cars being appliances that is true. Most of the Millennials, and even younger crowd, would rather not drive. Gone are the days teens wanted to get away from home and make out in the back seat of their own cars. Instead, they are constantly glued to their smart phone with the need to socialize every second of their waking day.   Forget electric cars, I predict that in 20 years people won't need smart phones - they will all receive a brain interface implant allowing direct communication with others by thoughts. No more tiny keyboards and sore thumbs - all you will have to to is think. :)

In defense of the younger crowd, how many of us grew up with helicopter parents and over-protective, imagine conscious mothers that escorts the kids everywhere. These are the same mothers that won't let the kid have a model if they have to use glue, or paint it. Its dangerous and messes up the house. I was seeing the beginnings of that when I worked in a hobby shop in the early 70's. Heard similar things from friends who were teachers, that it had got to the point were they couldn't make an assignment were the kids might have to use tools or materials other then maybe markers. Look how few schools have shop and mechanics classes. After years of lawsuits and parent complaints, its cheaper and easier not to have it. The classes we had when I was in HS (mid-60s) were fun and you learned something. Plus it was a head start for the people who were blue collar bound.

To get it back to electric vehicles, just heard on the local news show on NPR that there is starting to be some shortages and cost increases on lithium. Would imagine mining it, isn't much cleaner then mining coal.

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We may as well be driving appliances, anyway.  It seems like like everytime I get into the car nowadays I get stuck in traffic no matter how rural the setting, time of day, etc.  Great that my LaGonzo XYZ can do 240 MPH, eh?  I like hot rods, muscle cars and sports racers just as much as the next guy, but there's too many cars in regular use pumping exhaust into the atmosphere, all day long, everyday.  Internal combustion automobiles are the largest producers of CO2 after power generation.

Time to switch over to electric cars, walk more, get a bicycle, use mass transit, etc.  Things change.  That's life.  It's simple.

"They" will figure out the technology, especially as it get's more widely accepted and adopted, and there's a market and money to made, just like anything else.  And, higher electric bills will be offset by what you no longer spend on gasoline.

That's the way I see it.

PB.

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...Internal combustion automobiles are the largest producers of CO2 after power generation.

...Time to switch over to electric cars...

This is, unfortunately, the logic disconnect the whole electric car movement falls prey to.

Where do you suppose the electricity is going to come from, for the most part, to recharge them?

 

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Let's face it, only people who don't like electric cars are us dinosaurs,lol. If they get the range issues sorted, life will be good.  I've worked as a tech for GM for almost 30 years now, in that time only 3 cars really impressed me, the olds aurora, the latest  corvette and the volt. I'm a gearhead from way back and love a high revving v8, but some of these electric platforms are impressive performance wise, just need to get the range of travel a gas vehicle would have. Just my 2 cents?

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I'm with you, but I think those of us who consider a long road-trip to be fun, especially a straight-through nonstop event, are a dying breed...and have been few and far between for some time. Last time I drove cross-country (here to almost-Nevada, Az.) was in a Geo Metro 3-cylinder. At 40 MPG, she'd go just far enough on a 10-gallon tank for me to need to get out and stretch anyway, but it only took a couple of minutes to fill her. Grab a chemically-preserved burger, a bag-o-chips, a coffee, and on the road again. Just won't work with an electric.

46 hrs and 2100 miles in a Jeep Grand Cherokee w/ 6 dogs driving from Phoenix and Cleveland,  as smooth and comfortable as the Jeep is, was still a feat of extreme endurance..that was a once-in-a-lifetime event for me...I don't plan to do that again..any future road trips will be 8-9 hrs per day with nights in a good hotel and no fast food.  Some hotels have charging stations, which would work w/ an electric. 

Edited by Rob Hall
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This is, unfortunately, the logic disconnect the whole electric car movement falls prey to.

Where do you suppose the electricity is going to come from, for the most part, to recharge them?

 

One caveat with the electric car movement would be utilization of clean energy--solar, hydro, nuclear...move away from dirty old-time approaches like coal.

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In defense of the younger crowd, how many of us grew up with helicopter parents and over-protective, imagine conscious mothers that escorts the kids everywhere? These are the same mothers that won't let the kid have a model if they have to use glue, or paint it. Its dangerous and messes up the house....

Me. Though my father was a tinkerer and model builder (and encouraged my interests in trains and cars and planes) my mother ruled the roost. When she read an article about some kid getting his fingers whacked off by a gas-powered model airplane, that ended that. Then she read that kids were sniffing glue. Rather than seeing that I wasn't a moron who wanted to get high, but just loved building things, she made certain all the models went in the trash. Every few years I'd manage to sneak a kit, but it always ended up the same way. I'll spare you all the rest of the details of growing up a prisoner of a status and safety obsessed parent...but it can cripple a child intellectually and socially. Anything to do with science and art, on the other hand, was encouraged (even when "dangerous" things like soldering were involved)...for which I'll be eternally grateful.

But what she accomplished, rather than making me a chicken-exhaust little wuss, was to give me a rebellious streak a mile wide. There's no question I would have taken my "formal" education more seriously and tried harder if I'd been allowed the latitude to follow my OWN interests as well.

The interesting thing is that many of the skills I first began to develop as a young model builder serve me well to this day as an engineer and maker-of-things. But overprotective parents who fail to understand that each child comes with his or her own individual set of talents, and needs to be given something of a free rein to explore them...in spite of the "dangers"... are fools.

I also think much of the thing with the "younger crowd" has rather a lot to do with the alarming decrease in testosterone...the hormone responsible for making men adventurous and willing to take risks in the real world. And anyone not familiar with the facts here really needs to look into it.

 

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One caveat with the electric car movement would be utilization of clean energy--solar, hydro, nuclear...move away from dirty old-time approaches like coal.

I agree 100% Rob. I LIKE electric cars for doing what they do well...limited distance commutes, shopping, etc. The tech exists to use residential rooftop-generated clean energy, as I've been harping on for decades, and the prices will naturally come down as users increase.

But coal doesn't HAVE to be dirty. Again, as I've said numerous times before, in the short term it's a lot cheaper and easier to clean up existing coal plants than it is to replace them all with "clean" sources of electricity. We have about 300 years of coal right here in the good ol' USA. It's stupid not to use it.

And the CO2 cleaned out of the flue gas using algae (again, the tech exists) can be cost-effectively converted to biofuel if it's done on a large enough scale.

This is good, because there are SOME applications where IC engines will remain the power-or-choice, just as steel will ALWAYS have its place in spite of the much flashier materials like carbon fiber.

 

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46 hrs and 2100 miles in a Jeep Grand Cherokee w/ 6 dogs driving from Arizona to Ohio,  as smooth and comfortable as it is, was still a feat of extreme endurance..that was a once-in-a-lifetime event for me...I don't plan to do that again..any future road trips will be 8-9 hrs per day with nights in a good hotel and no fast food.  Some hotels have charging stations, which would work w/ an electric. 

I'm not going to argue the point, as different people have different ideas of "fun".

Suffice it to say that I was in my early 60s last time I drove that far, in a tiny little buzzing econobox (that could barely manage 60 MPH on the long climb up to Albuquerque), and I had a ball.

I'm planning another long road trip in the Spyder as soon as she's roadworthy again...with no heat, no ac, and no roof.  :D

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I'm not going to argue the point, as different people have different ideas of "fun".

Suffice it to say that I was in my early 60s last time I drove that far, in a tiny little buzzing econobox (that could barely manage 60 MPH on the long climb up to Albuquerque), and I had a ball.

I'm planning another long road trip in the Spyder as soon as she's roadworthy again...with no heat, no ac, and no roof.  :D

It definitely wasn't a fun trip for me, more of a matter of necessity as part of moving..trying to stay in motels/hotels w/ 6 dogs would have been logistically problematic, as would flying.  Just needed to get 2 people and six dogs from from Phoenix to Cleveland.  I do enjoy road trips that are taken as vacations, this wasn't one of them...

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