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New Tamiya Lacquers for Airbrushing?


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And this one, the then newly released (in the spring of 1967) AMT/Ertl 1966 Chevrolet Nova SS hardtop, painted in Martin Senour factory match acrylic lacquer (Clean Strip was not around yet, so this got Aero-Gloss model airplane dope thinner, from my inventory from my hobby shop, the former Modelmaker, in Lafayette IN:

 

66Nova1-vi.jpg

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3 hours ago, bluenote said:

That's where I'll be heading to pick up some too!

Actually, as per the link below, there are even more coming, including a lot of the car colours (metallics and pearls).

I believe the intent is to eventually release all of the spray colours in bottle form.  

Tamiya-color-lacquer-paint-compatibility

All I can go by is what the fellow running the store that day told us. He had indicated that they were mainly doing only the military/plane colours. Happy to see the metallics, micas and pearls in that list.

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1 hour ago, Art Anderson said:

Pete, 

I have no desire to get into any online argument here, but I will say that I've been thinning paint, from nitrocellulose automotive lacquer, acrylic automotive lacquer, Aero-Gloss model airplane dope, Tamiya and Testors Modelmaster lacquers (Oh, and regular petroleum-based enamels--from professional grade down to the likes of Testors) since my first airbrush, a Binks Wren (bought on the 26th of December 1961 with a mix of paper route money, and Christmas $$ for approximately $90 in 1961 money).  I've never had anything but the best of results from that time to now (have a bunch of trophies and plaques to back that up, too).  And no, not all lacquer thinners are mostly acetone, although acetone is a part of the blend, for sure.  While I have settled on "Klean-Strip" from Walmart, I have also bitten the bullet--used automotive lacquer thinner from Martin-Senour, and DuPont--all have given me the very same results (Oh, I forgot--at the outset, I used Pactra Aero-Gloss Dope thinner too!).  Even my technique hasn't changed, in how I thin lacquers (or enamels, for that matter), I thin all such paints to the consistency of skim milk (easy to see, just by observing how the mix "sheets" down the inside surface of my airbrush color jar), and the pressure I used at the airbrush--no pressure regulator, I just start out bleeding the air by my moisture trap petcock, and go from there--it's worked for me since I learned that by doing, now 57 years ago.  I may not know what I am doing, but I do know the results, and have many awards to prove it as well.  So, I guess I can say, "Been there, done that, got the Tee-Shirt.)

Art

Art, as I said you can't argue with results.  I too have been at this a long time.  I bought my first airbrush in 1972 when I was in Air Force Pilot training and the each class had a model contest.  The results were hung from the squadron room ceiling for decorations. I did a Revell 1:32 scale F-4D with a cheap badger siphon feed, canned air and pacta enamels.  

In the intervening years, I too have accumulated my fair share of trophies including Best of's from Tamiya/con, IPMS nat's and GSL just to mention a few.  I have also done contract work(display and advertising pieces) for Tamiya.  

I must give credit where credit is due.  A large part of my painting knowledge came from a good friend who spent his life as a paint jobber and factory rep.  He knew more about paint than I will ever know, but he did give me good advise when I screwed up a good paint job.  He also taught me that paint is science.   I carefully measure paint to thinner based on temperature and humidity, and on a diary I have kept for the last 30 years.  I find this necessary because I paint in an unheated/un-air conditioned garage and in SoCal and we get temperature swings of 60+ degrees and humidity variations from 10% to 90%.  I also have 4 different airbrushes that each have their own specification on paint viscosity.  Some would view this as over the top but it works for me. 

As to Klean Strip thinner you may find this interesting.  This is the link to the MSDS sheet for the California and 49 state mix of their lacquer thinner. http://www.kleanstrip.com/product/lacquer-thinner-for-california On page three you will see the general conposition.  It lists acetone as 60% to 100% and Ethylene glycol n-butyl  as 1% to 5%.  I find this interesting, because that tells me that sometimes their lacquer thinner can be nothing but relabled acetone with a drop or two of Ethylene glycol.  I strongly suspect that varies from state to state.  Because of the controlled chemicals in California I suspect that we get the mostly acetone version, because acetone is not regulated in paint. It is the other VOC that they get all crazy about. If you can find the MSDS sheets for other lacquer thinners there are as many as 18 other chemicals listed.  Each company formulates their thinners specifically for their products and for different reasons. 

As you said in your first sentence, I also don't wish to make this an online argument.  Your results are certainly impressive and your experience is by far the best way to go for you.  However, lacquer thinner is a lot like gasoline.  There are different grades and they run differently in different cars but it is all called gasoline.  My car knocks like heck with anything less that 91 octane.  That doesn't mean that everyone should run 91 octane.  Same way with lacquer thinner.  My methods work well for me where my experience teaches me I need to recognize the difference in mixes.  Your methods teach you differently. 

 I want to finish with an old saying that applies to each of us equally, "The magic is in the magician, not in the wand."  

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4 hours ago, bluenote said:

That's where I'll be heading to pick up some too!

Actually, as per the link below, there are even more coming, including a lot of the car colours (metallics and pearls).

I believe the intent is to eventually release all of the spray colours in bottle form.  

 

Yes, that is the plan, every spray colour in a bottle.

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3 hours ago, Pete J. said:

Art, all lacquer thinners are not created equal and there is a reason.  I learned this years ago when I started using automotive lacquers on models. 

Here is an article on what makes up lacquer thinners. It really does a good job of explaining the differences.   https://thefinishingstore.com/blogs/news/127175747-understanding-solvents-part-iii-laquer-thinner 

 The stuff you get at Wallyworld is mostly just acetone, especially if you live in California.  It may work well in many cases but not so much in others.  I have several cans of old style lacquer thinners that I hord and use only for thinning.  I use the cheap stuff as brush cleaner. 

 I decant a lot of Tamiya TS paints, which I suspect are very similar chemically to the new LP's and I thin them with Tamiya lacquer thinners when needed and they seem(Mark I eyeball only) to self level a little better than if I use other thinners.  The automotives lacquers seem to flash and harden faster.  The Klean Strip seem to require more finish polishing.  

I did learn a long time ago not to use different thinners if I spray more than one coat.  Always use the same thinner for all coats.  More than once, I have had severe wrinkling because of different cure rates. 

Now for the disclaimer, Your results may vary......   If you have a system and it works for you, stick with it!  Experience in mix rates and types of thinners and paints trumps everything.   

 I agree with this 100%, Ive learned that too in the short time ive been using them,  like example, you can not use the Clean Strip( I use it to)  on plastic from Japan , it will craze it, you need to use Mr Hobby or Tamiya Lacquer thinner.

I would 100% switch to Mr Hobby's thinner if the cost ratio was better, its a great thinner .

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23 minutes ago, Pete J. said:

I must give credit where credit is due.  A large part of my painting knowledge came from a good friend who spent his life as a paint jobber and factory rep.  He knew more about paint than I will ever know, but he did give me good advise when I screwed up a good paint job.  He also taught me that paint is science.   I carefully measure paint to thinner based on temperature and humidity, and on a diary I have kept for the last 30 years.  I find this necessary because I paint in an unheated/un-air conditioned garage and in SoCal and we get temperature swings of 60+ degrees and humidity variations from 10% to 90%.  I also have 4 different airbrushes that each have their own specification on paint viscosity.  Some would view this as over the top but it works for me. 

 

 

This is very fascinating, the methodical approach you take to painting.

 

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5 hours ago, Art Anderson said:

And this one, the then newly released (in the spring of 1967) AMT/Ertl 1966 Chevrolet Nova SS hardtop, painted in Martin Senour factory match acrylic lacquer (Clean Strip was not around yet, so this got Aero-Gloss model airplane dope thinner, from my inventory from my hobby shop, the former Modelmaker, in Lafayette IN:

 

66Nova1-vi.jpg

Nice Nova, but wasn't that kit originally released in 1987?

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9 hours ago, martinfan5 said:

This is very fascinating, the methodical approach you take to painting.

 

Jonathan, glad you found it interesting.  I suppose that is the pilot in me being methodical.  Initially keeping all the data was a real pain, but after a while, it gave me a real appreciation for what was going on.   There were many failures, but understanding how the chemistry of the paint interacts with atmospheric conditions helped reduce those failures to a very manageable level. It is not something that many have the patience to do at a hobby level.  Thanks for looking. 

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11 minutes ago, Pete J. said:

Jonathan, glad you found it interesting.  I suppose that is the pilot in me being methodical.  Initially keeping all the data was a real pain, but after a while, it gave me a real appreciation for what was going on.   There were many failures, but understanding how the chemistry of the paint interacts with atmospheric conditions helped reduce those failures to a very manageable level. It is not something that many have the patience to do at a hobby level.  Thanks for looking. 

I am going to guess that keeping all that data is great for the times when something goes wrong, I would think it might make it a bit easier to figure out what was the problem a lot faster.

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10 minutes ago, martinfan5 said:

I am going to guess that keeping all that data is great for the times when something goes wrong, I would think it might make it a bit easier to figure out what was the problem a lot faster.

Well, yes and no.  The initial concept was that all painting is a chemistry experiment.  If everything is the same, then the result will be the same.  I kept track of paint type(including color) thinning rate, which airbrush, psi, temperature and humidity, and any weird techniques I may have used and the result.  So when I go out to paint, I know what paint I am using, temperature and humidity.  From that I can go into the diary and get thinning rates and psi and bingo, same results.  It has always been surprising to me how much a single change in one of the variables can impact the outcome.  The worst thing that ever happened was when my cheap thermometer/hygrometer died and the new one gave slightly different readings.  

Now I have another problem and am starting over again.  I am trying to use automotive urethanes as auto lacquers are band in SoCal and they is an entirely different kettle of fish.  You can't just thin the heck out of them like you could the old lacquers and I really don't have a good handle on them.  I see just spectacular results that others are getting with them and I keep on experimenting.  Just don't have it down yet. 

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On 2/27/2018 at 9:59 PM, BVC500 said:

Scalefinishes doesn't respond to emails anymore, so they've lost my business despite me always having excellent customer service in the past. 

 

I 100% understand your position, and a large part of me even agrees with you,  but Jamston just sent out a news letter and made very mention of the issues you have outlined in your post and the steps he is going to take to rectify them.  

 

Edited by martinfan5
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8 hours ago, martinfan5 said:

I 100% understand your position, and a large part of me even agrees with you,  but Jamston just sent out a news letter and made very mention of the issues you have outlined in your post and the steps he is going to take to rectify them.  

 

Ah cool. Thanks for letting me know. I'm not on the mailing list. Mind posting the relevant parts? I've always had a great experience with Jameston, and I understood that he is extremely busy with work and Scalefinishes is a side business, but it was like one day he just stopped responding to emails (the occasional email I'd send once every six months or whatever about a product I wanted to order).

Edited by BVC500
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1 hour ago, BVC500 said:

Ah cool. Thanks for letting me know. I'm not on the mailing list. Mind posting the relevant parts? I've always had a great experience with Jameston, and I understood that he is extremely busy with work and Scalefinishes is a side business, but it was like one day he just stopped responding to emails (the occasional email I'd send once every six months or whatever about a product I wanted to order).

From Jameston's newsletter:

 

Starting this month, my goal is to have the newsletter mailed out every month between the 1st and the 5th. Please feel free to contact me and let me know if there is anything you would like to see in the upcoming newsletters.

New policies.

The most pressing item this month, I’m going to address, is my lacking customer service. The idea that customers are waiting several weeks on orders to be delivered is something I never thought could happen, but even worse is how often it does happen. So now that I have regular schedule at work, full time pay, and can get supplies without issues, it is time for me to get back to the basics of what made scalefinishes great.


1. Gone is my old attempt at a 48 hour turnaround on orders, the goal is now 3-5 days (1 week will be the maximum) between receiving an order and shipping it. With the increasing number of new customers, and the larger percentage of colors I need to mix per order take longer to process, but sitting on them for a free day to try and complete a whole batch of orders at once doesn’t work at all, so I will go back to mixing each order as it comes in. It’s the way I was doing it before, and it worked good then.

2. No more sales, they are disastrous to shipping times and, for the last few times I held them, have been more trouble than they’re worth.

3. Emails (and other messages) will be responded to in no more than 48 hours. I make mistakes, so if there is an issue, I am always happy to try and fix it fairly, but it needs to be approached fairly. So any message that is disrespectful, accuses me of lying, cheating, or is just a senseless attempt to start the right fight with me will not be tolerated, and the sender will be looking for a new place to buy paint.


So that’s this months newsletter, I promise the April edition will be more informative, and much more light hearted.

As always, I cannot thank enough, the people who have stuck by me through the good and bad. 10 years is a good run for a model paint company, and I'm looking forward to many more.

Thank you,
Jameston

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