[[Template core/front/global/utilitiesMenu does not exist. This theme may be out of date. Run the support tool in the AdminCP to restore the default theme.]]
slusher

GM and Chevy Quality

Recommended Posts

I have been watching the commercials that Chevy has been advertising. They have said they won the J.D. Powers award and an award for the last 5 years as most reliable brand.  How is that with the Cobalt key switch and all the recalls they have had on the Pontiacs. My wife had 6 on her G6 from 2012 until 2016. I am not kicking the brand but how is this true?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The J.D. Power ratings are basically meaningless, but sheeple have been very effectively brainwashed to accept that these ratings actually mean something.

Read through how the results are complied, and it's pretty obvious.

(This one rates vehicles by problems reported in the FIRST 90 DAYS of ownership. Even a Yugo could do OK here.)

(Quoted from https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/how-do-jd-power-reliability-ratings-work   )

1) J.D. Power Initial Quality Study

The most widely reported survey is the J.D. Power Initial Quality Study (IQS). The study looks at the number of issues that customers experience in the first 90 days of ownership. For the 2017 study, the company talked to 80,000 consumers about their new vehicles. The results are reported in the number of problems per 100 vehicles.

(This one rates 3-year old vehicles based on problems reported in the LAST YEAR of ownership.)

2) J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability Study

Through the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), J.D. Power rates 3-year-old vehicles by analyzing the number and types of problems reported by original owners in the last 12 months of ownership.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously, if these quotes are accurate indications of actual practice, there's an almost 2-year gap in the life of the vehicle that isn't even looked at.

And statistics can be interpreted several ways, usually. Don't forget that even a tiny edge in fewer-reported-problems would make one vehicle a winner.

Also remember that the results are compiled from talking to a "representative" number of owners. Owners by and large know pretty much nothing about how cars work, and the guy with a Chevy pickup isn't really very likely to know anything about the ignition switch problem in other product lines.

Here's more to read...   https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/best-cars-blog/2015/08/understanding-jd-power-reliability-ratings-for-car-buying

 

Edited by Ace-Garageguy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, dieseldawg142 said:

it simple Carl, Gm has had less recalls than most manufactors....

Well, no. The J.D. Power ratings that Carl asked about are based on owner interviews and questionnaires, not recall numbers.

Because the VAST majority of new-car-buyers are functionally ignorant about vehicle design and engineering, the results are rather like pollng pool boys to recommend brain surgeons.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, dieseldawg142 said:

correct, it is

less recalls or probs, less reported...:D

Reported problems do not always result in recalls. These are two related but independent issues.

And the number of vehicles affected by a recall are not necessarily representative of the number of complaints or incidents resulting in the recall.

Once a significant problem shows up in the field, its potential to be life-threatening or financially disastrous is evaluated by engineering and legal teams, and a decision is made as to the scope of the recall.

A recall could be initiated from a very FEW actual incidents or reported problems, if the POTENTIAL for disaster is determined to be great enough.

If J.D. Power's "representative" sample of owners of vehicles haven't personally experienced the problem, it won't show up on the radar (according to their own explanation of their methodology).

NOTE: Here's some information that will be helpful to anyone interested in corporate disaster preparedness...

http://www.na-businesspress.com/JMPP/ShepherdIJ_Web17_1_.pdf

Edited by Ace-Garageguy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The first 90 days of ownership you're still on the "honeymoon" so to speak. They car still smells new, your friends and neighbors are still gushing over your new purchase. Hopefully the kids haven't spilled to much in the car and the dog hasn't gotten sick in it yet. About the time the first oil change rolls around, you are going to do that aren't you ?,  that is when you find a nut or bolt or screw rolling around on the floor, you have noticed the two or three different color shades of color on the dash and door panels. You're still struggling to operate the TV screen in the middle of your dash board. Countless people in the parking lots have bounced their door off of yours and the sides are starting to look like the car has the "Alpha Beta Rash". Alpha Beta was a Southern California based food store. Pretty soon its just another car with 60 to 72 friendly payments to look forward to.  Maybe you got 0%apr. Doesn't matter the new old bus is depreciating faster than you can pay it off. Aren't new cars grand ?    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know a lot about these awards, but I always assumed that they were just a marketing ploy used by some auto makers.

I find it amusing that Chevy touts these stupid awards in every single television commercial, trying to convince us that they make the most reliable cars on the planet, while the makes that are traditionally known to be exceptionally reliable almost never cite these awards.

The funniest part of the latest Chevy commercial is when they assemble a bunch of dweebs, who probably wouldn't even be able to figure out where the hood release is, together in the middle of the Interstate.

After they go through the whole spiel about how reliable they are, they move on to the final scene with 4 people sitting in a Chevy with some ditzy blonde behind the wheel who proudly proclaims, "I feel like I'm sitting in a reliable car right now"!

Seriously?

You got that feeling from sitting in a brand new car for 30 seconds?

She should be pulled from the car & pitched over the side of the bridge!

Well.....maybe that's a little extreme. :D

 

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I do agree with you Steve...maybe it is a touch extreme.☺

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

The J.D. Power ratings are basically meaningless, but sheeple have been very effectively brainwashed to accept that these ratings actually mean something...

(grumpy old man rant) That's one reason I NEVER respond to on-line begging asking me to "review my recent purchase" or anything similar. I assume my review will be used to gin up some meaningless rating or popularity contest.  That begging has gotten absolutely relentless in the past few years.  If I bought a roll of toilet paper from Amazon or eBay, I'm pretty sure they would start bugging me with demands for a review.

For example...name omitted in case any lawyers are reading...one Humongous Satellite TV company is currently running endless TV ads.  Claims they've been rated the best by their customers for 27 years in a row or something.  But I know several people who use that company because they have no other choice.  They call it many things, but "the best" is not one of them.   

So all you marketeers out there: If you DON'T hear from me, consider me happy with the purchase.  That's your review.  If I'm unhappy you'll definitely hear from me.  And not in any way you'll want to use in your advertising (/grumpy old man rant) 

Edited by Mike999
error

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dieseldawg142 said:

 the ignition switch recall is not the first of it's kind (remember "flame on"....) and by recall standards, it's not that huge, maybe 10 or 15th.

Yeah, this one is on the level of the Pinto fuel tank, not a simple "recall" issue. 124 people died as a result of old GM's reluctance to fix a known issue. That is HUGE, and a terrible thing.

I own a '95 Chevy Astro (with the 4L60E which filed to make it to 100K miles) so I do have GM ownership experience, and overall it's been good...but that trans issue was a major problem, and most people not as hands on as me would've sent the van to the salvage yard and written off GM vehicles forever.

Long story short, name a vehicle and you'll find some who love it and some who hate it...except for Fiat X-19s-- nobody likes those. :D

Here's a decent read/look at someone who actually participated in one of those Chevy commercials: https://jalopnik.com/somebody-from-chevys-dumb-real-people-ads-spoke-out-abo-1795489304

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Casey said:

Long story short, name a vehicle and you'll find some who love it and some who hate it...except for Fiat X-19s-- nobody likes those. :D

WHAT !!!  BLASPHEMY !!!  ;)

Seriously, I've owned almost as many Fiat X1/9s as I've owned Corvairs. They're LOVELY little cars as long as you don't mind tinkering with them constantly. Never had to get any of the Fiats towed (or the Corvairs for that matter), and both cars respond to tuning happily and acquit themselves nicely in competition.  B)

 

Edited by Ace-Garageguy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never seen an ad campaign cite a study that made them look bad. You will probably* never see an ad from Nissan proclaiming that they have the 6th best selling truck in the US.

 

I'm sure every car maker can find a study out there showing that they make the best xyz, it is just a matter of wording. I'm sure even the Yugo was the best something.

 

 

* I say probably because if I didn't some ad guy out there will ironically reference that stat just to prove me wrong. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Aaronw said:

... I'm sure even the Yugo was the best something...

It was the best Fiat 128 knockoff with a pot-metal crankshaft ever made. Honest.  :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know about all these polls and surveys and whatnot, but from experience, I can tell you this.

GM do not have a quality issue at all. Period.

The company I work for has a fleet of over 10,000 vehicles across Canada. These lease, rental, or sales vehicles work in every possible industry and application in Canada, in every province, including Nunavut.The fleet is pretty close to being an even split of GM, Ford, and FCA product, with a healthy sprinkling of imports. We replace about a third of that fleet every year.

The imports and GM are far and away the most reliable vehicles in our fleet. Every year we analyze our maintenance costs and downtime over the course of the previous 12 month period. This way, when ordering the next year's replacements we can choose wisely. The number of GM and Ram trucks has been steadily increasing over the past few years. GM more than any other.I leave you to infer which brand we're ordering less.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

I don't know about all these polls and surveys and whatnot, but from experience, I can tell you this.

GM do not have a quality issue at all. Period.

The company I work for has a fleet of over 10,000 vehicles across Canada. These lease, rental, or sales vehicles work in every possible industry and application in Canada, in every province, including Nunavut.The fleet is pretty close to being an even split of GM, Ford, and FCA product, with a healthy sprinkling of imports. We replace about a third of that fleet every year.

The imports and GM are far and away the most reliable vehicles in our fleet. Every year we analyze our maintenance costs and downtime over the course of the previous 12 month period. This way, when ordering the next year's replacements we can choose wisely. The number of GM and Ram trucks has been steadily increasing over the past few years. GM more than any other.I leave you to infer which brand we're ordering less.

 

I'm sure your numbers don't lie. Interpreted correctly, numbers reveal truth.

Still, a string of poor engineering and management decisions that took a switch that could have been pretty much bulletproof for about an extra 25 cents per vehicle, and turned it into a debacle that may ultimately cost the company 10 BILLION dollars doesn't really inspire confidence in the OTHER decisions being made there.

For instance, the LS series of engines is well respected, but the guys who know engines inside (among them...me) are aware of design shortcomings that frankly defy all logic.

I simply do not believe that the current crop of ANYTHING will be running with very minimal repairs after 250.000 miles, as many of my older vehicles have been able to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

 

I simply do not believe that the current crop of ANYTHING will be running with very minimal repairs after 250.000 miles, as many of my older vehicles have been able to do.

I don't know that there's one manufacturer today building something designed to last several hundred thousand miles. And it's been a long time sine that happened. I think the 80s is when we first started to see the trend of "disposable" cars. Think about the numbers of K-cars, the original Dodge caravan, the Ford Tempos and Ford Escorts that were built. Now when was the last time you saw one on the road? Go even newer. When was last time you saw a Dodge Neon? Or Pontiac Sunbirds? Chev Lumina?

The issue for me, is that society doesn't seem to care. People are so used to replacing cars often, so they don't care about long term. Everyone seems to want the latest and greatest, so replace every 3 or 4 years, or whenever the warranty runs out.

The thing is, when maintained, vehicles can go a long time. My '93 Jeep Cherokee went 440,000km with no breakdowns or issues before I retired it. The previous car was an 87 Mazda 626. Again, over 400,000km before I replaced it with the Jeep. Wifey's Volvo XC90 is an older one, currently with 230,000km, and we've never had to do anything but normal maintenance. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I'm sure your numbers don't lie. Interpreted correctly, numbers reveal truth.

Still, a string of poor engineering and management decisions that took a switch that could have been pretty much bulletproof for about an extra 25 cents per vehicle, and turned it into a debacle that may ultimately cost the company 10 BILLION dollars doesn't really inspire confidence in the OTHER decisions being made there.

For instance, the LS series of engines is well respected, but the guys who know engines inside (among them...me) are aware of design shortcomings that frankly defy all logic.

I simply do not believe that the current crop of ANYTHING will be running with very minimal repairs after 250.000 miles, as many of my older vehicles have been able to do.

The GM switch fiasco was caused by an engineer who changed the spring plunger that held the switch in position to a weaker spring (thus creating a defective switch assembly), and NOT changing the part number which would have alerted someone to a significant change in the assembly.  It was not "a string of poor engineering and management decisions" trying to save 25 cents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

When was last time you saw a Dodge Neon?...

...The issue for me, is that society doesn't seem to care. People are so used to replacing cars often, so they don't care about long term. Everyone seems to want the latest and greatest, so replace every 3 or 4 years, or whenever the warranty runs out.

The thing is, when maintained, vehicles can go a long time. ...

 

1) I see a Neon every other day. I found a one-owner with just over 100K on the clock for a good friend who needed a "backup" car for $2000. She LOVES it. The little bugger handles better than just about any of its contemporaries, and except for a little buzziness, it's easily the equal for comfort and fuel economy of the comparable NEW cars I rented recently on a multi-state trip. Because they WERE considered by the masses to be disposable, the junkyards are chock full of cheap Neon parts, and barring a moron event, it will be running for as long as I live.

2) You're absolutely right. The sheeple have been brainwashed to KNOW that old cars are unreliable junk, and BORING, so the 3-year replacement cycle reigns. The manufacturers only need to get their over-styled, over-complex body-part-extensions to run reliably for 3 years. And anybody who cant build a NEW vehicle that works well for 3 years has no business being in the business.

3) Yup. Maintenance and competent repairs when necessary make ALL the difference. But many electronic components will NOT be supported in the future for most of the now-new vehicles. Keeping one running will be much like keeping an old Windows 95 computer functional.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My 01 Nissan Maxima I had was still going strong with just over 300,000 miles on the OD,  if it wasnt for the electrical fire, it would still be sitting in my driveway.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, modelercarl said:

The GM switch fiasco was caused by an engineer who changed the spring plunger that held the switch in position to a weaker spring (thus creating a defective switch assembly), and NOT changing the part number which would have alerted someone to a significant change in the assembly.  It was not "a string of poor engineering and management decisions" trying to save 25 cents.

1) Engineer substitutes sub-spec part:   Poor engineering decision

2) Engineer fails to change part number:    Poor engineering decision

3) No internal quality assurance or testing in place to catch it prior to production:   Poor engineering / management decisions

4) Problem begins to manifest itself in the field. Rather than deal with it head on, management sweeps it under rug:   Poor management decision

5) No significant attempt to correct problem until AFTER multiple death and injury claims, and legal actions:   Poor management decision

I rest my case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, iamsuperdan said:

I don't know about all these polls and surveys and whatnot, but from experience, I can tell you this.

GM do not have a quality issue at all. Period.

The company I work for has a fleet of over 10,000 vehicles across Canada. These lease, rental, or sales vehicles work in every possible industry and application in Canada, in every province, including Nunavut.The fleet is pretty close to being an even split of GM, Ford, and FCA product, with a healthy sprinkling of imports. We replace about a third of that fleet every year.

The imports and GM are far and away the most reliable vehicles in our fleet. Every year we analyze our maintenance costs and downtime over the course of the previous 12 month period. This way, when ordering the next year's replacements we can choose wisely. The number of GM and Ram trucks has been steadily increasing over the past few years. GM more than any other.I leave you to infer which brand we're ordering less.

 

I guess that we all have our own experiences.

My most recent Chevrolet experience did not impress me in the least, reinforcing the fact that I will probably never buy one.

The last business that I worked at for 12 years running deliveries, purchased 2 brand new Chevy Uplanders right around 2013.

When I left the company in 2017, both of these vans were sitting in the back lot not being used & basically ready for the junk man.

Neither one of them had much more than 100,000 miles on them & they were completely shot.

Granted, they had relatively rough usage in those 4 years, but both of them had major transmission problems by the time they reached 60 or 70,000 miles & I was particularly turned off by the fit & finish of these vehicles.

You could have filled up an appliance box with the interior & exterior finish parts that had fallen off of them!

Glove box doors duct taped shut, parts strapped on with bungy cords & electrical tape, it was a pathetic sight.

Your experience may vary, but after driving these vehicles for several years & seeing the issues that popped up on a regular basis, I would never buy one for my own use.

 

Steve

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My wife has an 08 Pontiac G6 and it's the first non Chrysler or Ford car we have owed since we married. The car has been in and out of the shop since we bought it plus the recalls. My wife likes to drive it but she said she never wants anything GM. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, slusher said:

My wife has an 08 Pontiac G6 and it's the first non Chrysler or Ford car we have owed since we married. The car has been in and out of the shop since we bought it plus the recalls. My wife likes to drive it but she said she never wants anything GM. 

I've always thought they were good looking, not overdone, and often notice them on the road. I'd kinda thought about looking into finding one.

What kinds of problems have you guys been having with it?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I guess that we all have our own experiences.

My most recent Chevrolet experience did not impress me in the least, reinforcing the fact that I will probably never buy one.

 

 

Same here, I owned two Chevy's and that really put me off on them and GM as whole for the most part,  It kills me that I have to drive one right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now