Stop resurrecting once great nameplates

[Rodent]

Just finished a road trip in the Mazda3 with a  6 speed manual. Nice light clutch. Wouldn't have been able to walk after this trip with a few of my previous  manual cars.

[TarheelRick]

On 6/28/2018 at 12:05 PM, iamsuperdan said:

And as far as being overloaded; that's what the majoprity of people want. Everybody wants bluetooth, wifi, airbags, improved crash standards, heated seats, heated steering wheel, glass roofs, blind spot monitoring, adaptive cruise, ABS, hybrid, bigger wheels, rear seast entertainment, heads up displays, toucha screens, nabvigation, big stereos, LED this, high def that, etc, etc. People demand it, the manufacturers build it. 

Keep in mind, you can still get stripped down base models. It's just that you'll never see one on a dealer's lot, because that's not what people ask for. Dealers only get so many vehicles allocated, so they bring in what sells. 

 

 

I have been around for a few years and have driven many different cars.  My first was Dad's 4-door '53 Chevrolet he used to carry the mail.  Over the past 53 years of driving I have noticed all these changes taking place.  It is my opinion (and yes everyone has one and they all stink) these changes have not necessarily come about from consumer requests, but from the automakers recognizing a way to make more money.  One of the first changes I really paid attention to was the loss of manual transmissions in the "everyday" car, then for some reason all cars came with power steering.  The first few changes were improvements, but only if a person really wanted them.  I don't think I would enjoy slamming a 4-speed (or 10-speed - isn't that a bicycle?) today, my arthritic knees  couldn't handle the clutch pressure; but if I wanted one they are extremely difficult to find.  Another big change is to the 4WD pickup, do you realize how difficult it is to find a decent 2WD pickup with a few amenities?  All these refinements and other management/worker "arrangements" are the reason a new Ford pickup with minimal (not a utilitarian work vehicle) options is well over $35K; my first brand-new vehicle was a '72 C-10 Custom with a 350, automatic, AM radio, and rear step bumper (an option in '72) and it cost me $3100.  We could get into a price comparison based on inflation, but I could still afford it buy it then, and it is almost impossible to consider a new one in today's market.

[MrObsessive]

Ricky, to add to what you said, let's not forget all the safety regs imposed by the Safety Nazi's in the government. Airbags are just one facet. Throw in the entire architecture of any given vehicle and it's the reason many of them look the way they do. It took awhile to realize this, but I couldn't put my finger on why the newer cars feel so claustrophobic. Before I bought my Challenger, I had looked at the new Mustang (new in late '14 as a '15), and it occurred to me that the car just seemed "small" on the inside when in reality it probably wasn't.

All the thick A and C pillars with their way too huge structures, thick headlining, thick doors, the car just felt to me mighty narrow. My Challenger while it suffers from the same maladies, is just a bigger car and not so heavy handed to me when it comes to those things.

Don't get me started on the loss of pillarless hardtops.........the Safety Nazis regulated those out of existence years ago, yet they still make convertibles.

It's one of the reasons I thoroughly dislike four door cars (most of them). That center pillar is waaaaay too thick for my peripheral vision, and as much difficulty I've had with eyesight over the last several years, that's one less hassle I can do without.

[iamsuperdan]

1 hour ago, TarheelRick said:

I have been around for a few years and have driven many different cars.  My first was Dad's 4-door '53 Chevrolet he used to carry the mail.  Over the past 53 years of driving I have noticed all these changes taking place.  It is my opinion (and yes everyone has one and they all stink) these changes have not necessarily come about from consumer requests, but from the automakers recognizing a way to make more money.  One of the first changes I really paid attention to was the loss of manual transmissions in the "everyday" car, then for some reason all cars came with power steering.  The first few changes were improvements, but only if a person really wanted them.  I don't think I would enjoy slamming a 4-speed (or 10-speed - isn't that a bicycle?) today, my arthritic knees  couldn't handle the clutch pressure; but if I wanted one they are extremely difficult to find.  Another big change is to the 4WD pickup, do you realize how difficult it is to find a decent 2WD pickup with a few amenities?  All these refinements and other management/worker "arrangements" are the reason a new Ford pickup with minimal (not a utilitarian work vehicle) options is well over $35K; my first brand-new vehicle was a '72 C-10 Custom with a 350, automatic, AM radio, and rear step bumper (an option in '72) and it cost me $3100.  We could get into a price comparison based on inflation, but I could still afford it buy it then, and it is almost impossible to consider a new one in today's market.

 

 

The thing is though, no one plans ahead. If someone decides the need a new vehicle and then goes to the dealership, they will not find a base zipper model. If they're lucky, they might find an "advertiser" on the lot, something cheap the dealers put in ads, trying to get people in the doors. But when dealer order, they order what sells. And the fact is, the majority of people want bells and whistles.

 

If one wants a zipper?

2018 Ford Focus S: 100A equipment group, 2.0L I-4 engine, 5-speed manual transmission, manual seats, rear drum brakes, hubcaps, am/fm radio, manual rear windows. $19k CDN.

2018 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 WT Reg Cab longbox 2WD: 4.3L EcoTec3 V6, 6-speed auto transmission, 17" steel wheels, vinyl bench seat, vinyl flooring, am/fm stereo, manual mirrors. Approx $23k CDN. Add $1200 for the 5.3L V8.

2018 Ra m3500 ST Reg Cab longbox 2WD - Cummins diesel, 6-speed manual transmission, 18" steel wheels, no chrome, am/fm radio, manual mirrors, vinyl bench seat, vinyl flooring, manual door locks, manual windows. $42k CDN

 

You'll never see these on a lot, but you can easily order them. 8-10 week delivery. There are plenty of options for decontented cheap cars and trucks, but no one looks, and dealers will never suggest waiting for a factory order. 

If you're in Canada, and need a zipper, PM me. 

 

 

 

[SSNJim]

We walked into our local Ford dealer in October, and drove off in one of several base model 2017 Ford Escapes the same weekend. When you see "Prices starting at $xxxxx", this is the one you get. The only option on it (no cost) was the front license plate holder. Of course, in 1975, this would have been loaded. It has power steering, power brakes, power windows, an automatic transmission, air conditioning, automatic headlights, CD (the new cassette) player, and plenty of other things not invented then.

And on topic: Blazer is a "once great nameplate"? I'd put it into the also-ran category. Maverick, Torino, Vega, Tempest, Malibu, Satellite, and the list goes on. They're nice enough, and had their purpose, but not particularly interesting or collectible until the interesting and collectible versions become horrendously expensive.

[tbill]

I think maybe the biggest reason some of these name plates coming back into use makes us nuts is due to the lack of the evolution of the name. Stick with me here....

corvette, the 53 looks nothing like the 2018 version , but we have seen the name/car evolve, so we can relate. 

 

Now, if we take the lemans name plate, and the huge gap of time in between use, and the last product it was on....., well, there’s the what makes us nuts factor, one extreme to another really, with no ‘inbetween’.

 

now atleast with the Camaro and challenger vehicles, it seems to be ok because the retro look is close enough to the ‘original’ style to be ‘worthy’ of the name plate.

 

oddly enough, I don’t think anyone would be upset if the celebrity or citation name plates got used again?

 

just my ramblings, your mileage may vary....

[SfanGoch]

I'm I agreeing with you, Tom. I can't get used to a 4 Dr Charger. Something blasphemous about that.

[MrObsessive]

18 minutes ago, tbill said:

oddly enough, I don’t think anyone would be upset if the celebrity or citation name plates got used again?

Ugggh!! Talk about the WORST of the '80's! I disliked those the moment I first saw 'em! The sad thing is, those cars and that architecture led GM (and others in the industry) to the blandest FWD cars that came down the pike for YEARS, and they wondered why they were losing market share, ultimately having to file for bankruptcy.

But who knows.............10 years from now those cars may be highly collectible!

[MrObsessive]

4 minutes ago, SfanGoch said:

I'm I agreeing with you, Tom. I can't get used to a 4 Dr Charger. Something blasphemous about that.

While I can agree they should have called it something else (ESPECIALLY the new for '06 model), I have to admit I do like the current Charger and was actually looking at a '13 model before I settled on my Challenger. At least the current car has some styling cues from the knockout show car from '99. What they gave us the first time around I'm not sure WHAT that was supposed to be!

[tbill]

The other funny thing that comes to mind is the Olds Cutlass, went rwd to fwd and one year, had both at the same time....

[Joe Handley]

24 minutes ago, tbill said:

I think maybe the biggest reason some of these name plates coming back into use makes us nuts is due to the lack of the evolution of the name. Stick with me here....

corvette, the 53 looks nothing like the 2018 version , but we have seen the name/car evolve, so we can relate. 

 

Now, if we take the lemans name plate, and the huge gap of time in between use, and the last product it was on....., well, there’s the what makes us nuts factor, one extreme to another really, with no ‘inbetween’.

 

now atleast with the Camaro and challenger vehicles, it seems to be ok because the retro look is close enough to the ‘original’ style to be ‘worthy’ of the name plate.

 

oddly enough, I don’t think anyone would be upset if the celebrity or citation name plates got used again?

 

just my ramblings, your mileage may vary....

There's very good chance that if the Celebrity, Citation, Tempo, Monza, Escort, and Shadow name came back, they'd be on better cars.......although I can see the Shadow being reused as a trim package on something like a Charger/Challenger  or a Jeep while while Monza could be reused in the same way to sport up a the Cruze Monza Turbo version like the Corvair,  or another hot version of the Camaro........... now that I think of it, Monza Turbo version of that too

[espo]

3 hours ago, SfanGoch said:

I'm I agreeing with you, Tom. I can't get used to a 4 Dr Charger. Something blasphemous about that.

I agree 100 % especially with a car with the reputation like the Charger. That said I sure love our Charger RT. 90k miles and still running strong. With the exception of having too many doors it is ever bit a Charger.

[tbill]

Said it before here somewhere, but if the charger was made as a two door, I think it’d sell like mad, imagine that in hellcat form......., and I’m a Chevy guy!

[SfanGoch]

That, and make it look more like a real Charger. It was pulled off with the new Challengers. Almost 800 HP......Perfect for crawling along at 10 MPH on the Long Island Expressway.  

[Joe Handley]

1 hour ago, tbill said:

Said it before here somewhere, but if the charger was made as a two door, I think it’d sell like mad, imagine that in hellcat form......., and I’m a Chevy guy!

They did, it's called the Challenger.

[MrObsessive]

Actually, the Challenger IS the two door Charger everyone screamed about. Sitting inside if you're not looking behind you, one would think they are the same car. Same dash, steering wheel, about the same windshield contours. Trouble is, like it or not two doors don't sell as well as four doors in today's market. Chrysler in that regard was smart in making the car a four door..........just lost it on the styling IMO when it was reintro'd for 2006.

BTW, I believe Daimler was responsible for why we got what we got. Word was the car WAS to look like that '99 show car, but Daimler was taking over right at the time the design was in it's early stages.

[MrObsessive]

3 minutes ago, Joe Handley said:

They did, it's called the Challenger.

HA! Great minds think alike!

I had thought that even before I bought mine............the dealer had mentioned that to me too when I was test driving it.

[iamsuperdan]

8 hours ago, MrObsessive said:

Actually, the Challenger IS the two door Charger everyone screamed about. Sitting inside if you're not looking behind you, one would think they are the same car. Same dash, steering wheel, about the same windshield contours. Trouble is, like it or not two doors don't sell as well as four doors in today's market. Chrysler in that regard was smart in making the car a four door..........just lost it on the styling IMO when it was reintro'd for 2006.

BTW, I believe Daimler was responsible for why we got what we got. Word was the car WAS to look like that '99 show car, but Daimler was taking over right at the time the design was in it's early stages.

Daimler had to redesign and reconfigure the show car to fit on the outgoing Mercedes E-class platform that they were planning to use for the Charger/Challenger/300/Magnum. That's right, the Hellcat and Demon, and SRT cars have a lot in common with a 20 year old Mercedes.

 

 

[iamsuperdan]

There's been a couple of decent renderings that hint at what could have been. 

 

But when the four door looks this good, what's the point?

 

 

Especially when there's this for a two door option.

[MrObsessive]

6 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

Daimler had to redesign and reconfigure the show car to fit on the outgoing Mercedes E-class platform that they were planning to use for the Charger/Challenger/300/Magnum. That's right, the Hellcat and Demon, and SRT cars have a lot in common with a 20 year old Mercedes.

 

Oh I knew about that when they were previewing the 300/Charger back in 2004. The main howls coming from the enthusiast crowd was that the car had NO STYLING connection to the original car whatsoever! Your renderings above reminds me a lot of what I was seeing on the Chrysler forums back then. Tons and tons of speculation of what that car was going to look like, and then when it debuted.........you could hear the screams halfway around the world.

Car and Driver Magazine which was one of the first to show what the car would look like, had said at the time that in all of the years of publishing and writing about cars, they have NEVER received so much hate mail over one car EVER!

Interesting that the current Charger which is still made on the old platform has those styling cues from the show car (actually starting with the 2011 model). Almost as if they made a mistake and that's what was intended originally, and now they're "fixing" their mistake.

[espo]

I feel one of the big pluses with the Charger/Challenger/300 is that the chassis is based on the E Class chassis. This is one of the reasons for the out standing handing of these cars. Ours happens to be an RT with the AWD system and rain and snow does very little to upset it's handling. I have wanted to get a newer year model Charger but since '14 the only way to get the AWD is with the 3.6 liter six. That is a great engine, my wife has it in her '14 Avenger, but the Charger is a much heavier car and the one I drove with the AWD just didn't have the go power I wanted compared to the 5.7 Liter eight cylinder. I'm sure most would be satisfied but I'm admittedly power mad. I like imsuperdan's  drawings. If any of the first three were in the showroom I'd give up my fixation with AWD.

[iamsuperdan]

I think that's one of the reasons they haven't tried to replace the platform so far. it's a Mercedes, it handles great! But it could be better. All of the lightweight aluminum that Mercedes used was replaced with steel and other metals in the Dodge/Chrysler product. Definitely changed the feel of the car.

Still, I'm a fan, I've owned one, and I wouldn't hesitate to purchase another.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

I just saw a beautifully kept black one of these at the bank. Though I'm not a fan of these things mechanically and structurally, I always liked the looks, and I think it's vastly more attractive than the overwrought mommy-van (or is that "urban-adventurer" ?) that started this thread.

                                                                        

And to me this is what I think of when I think "Blazer". Tough, simple, goes anywhere (and you can fix it out in the middle of nowhere).

                                        

 

Edited July 5, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[cobraman]

Now that is a Blazer !

[Rob Hall]

I like the old full size Blazers and Broncos, esp. the 90s Broncos.    Almost bought a clean '95 back in '00.