Jump to content
Model Cars Magazine Forum

Educate me on Model T speed equipment


Recommended Posts

I am not a hotrodder, but I need some help with warming up a Model T engine. Running gear I can understand, brakes, transmission, suspension, but the engine stuff, particularly vintage engine mods I'm far less aware of the hows, whys and downstream effects.  

I'm participating in the Peking to Paris race community build (down here http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/topic/137143-peking-to-paris-rally-cbp/ ), and my entry is going to be a Model T.

 

Looking to build a moderately boosted engine of 30-50hp using parts available circa 1925-27. Must use the standard 4 cylinder as a base. Made for endurance racing, so mods that maintain reliability are more important than a large power increase. Similar is the ability to run on poor quality gasoline, or similar fuels, allegedly by adjusting the mixture the T would run on kerosene. Crossing the back roads of China and Russia, that would probably be a helpful feature.

 

I've got all of the the recent AMT Model T reissues, Buyers Choice, Chopped T, Tall T, Delivery Van, Fruit Wagon and Police car available to raid for parts. I know there is a Frontenac OHV head in the '27 kit, but there were several and I'm not sure which one is in the kit or if there is even enough external difference to matter in scale.

Also have the Revell '29 Ratrod and '31 Woody and understand these also have parts that would have been available on the T including a Riley OHV head. Don't know if it has parts of any use to this, but I've also got the Beverly Hillbillies truck available.

While not an engine part I understand there is a 2 speed axle in several of the T kits. Does this represent a Ruckstell or similar vintage part, or is it a later part?

 

Other mods that may require scratchbuilding / kit bashing, water pump, distributor ignition, duel ignition, pressurized oil system, oil filter, oil cooler, fuel pump (electric or mechanical), dual carbs, vaporizer carbs, electric starter etc. Of these the water pump seems to be the most controversial, I've looked at several Model T forums and boy are there some strong opinions on water pumps. 

 

Feel free to go full geek on this, I'm hoping to learn enough to make an educated decision about the mods I choose, not just a list of parts to put on the engine, although a list of what is available in the above kits is quite welcome. You can tell me how you would build the engine, but please explain why you would make each change so I can make an informed decision.

 

I'm having more fun planning this than I have in a long time, trying to realistically build the model as if I were an eccentric millionaire actually participating in the race. 

The modern bucket T with a small block is of no interest to me, but researching this, I'm kind of getting into the vintage thing. Supposedly somebody squeezed 300hp out of a Model T block!!!!? If true that is amazing. Who knows maybe I'll even build a hotrod when I'm done with this one, not building hotrods all these years I've certainly acquired the parts box for it. 

 

I know some of you guys take this stuff seriously, some even do it for real so here is your chance to go full car nerd. :D

 

Thanks

 

 

Edited by Aaronw
Link to comment
Share on other sites

People did in fact drive model T automobiles across the country in stock form in the dim recesses of history, so a long distance rally using today's preparation and upgraded materials is certainly feasible.

The "hottest" of the T hot-rod parts available in kit form would undoubtedly be the DOHC Frontenac represented in the AMT '27 kits. It's debatable whether this would have given the kind of reliability in 1927 to make it from Paris to Dakar, (EDIT: or Peking) but it's absolutely positively possible to get that from the vintage setup using today's materials for valves, valve springs, timing chain, cam and followers, etc.

Headers of course, on whatever you build, and probably multiple carburetion. The famous Vertex magneto became available in the 1930s, and would be a good choice if legal for the class rules.

The Riley OHV conversion represented in both AMT and Revell kits (the Revell is the nicer) is a setup for a model-A engine (1928-1931, and available in later models through 1934 IIRC). I don't know right off hand how stringent the race rules are, but a late-model A (referred to many as a "C") engine fitted with the Riley setup, and making use of the advantages the last-of-the-line improvements the "C" engine offered would also be a fine candidate for a long-distance runner with much improved grunt. Being able to use the A gearbox would be a big help too.

That OHV Olds head in the Hillbillies kit was also swappable on to an A bottom end (again IIRC), but again, the specific rules would determine the legality.

Any of these engines can be built with low enough compression ratios to run on pretty awful fuel.

Here's one article on converting a T to pressure lubrication, which I would most certainly consider if I were building the thing for real, but again, not having the rules in front of me, how far I'd go is pure pointless conjecture.   https://www.nwvs.org/Technical/MTFCA/Articles/2605PressurizedOil.pdf

If the rules allow, going to a 5-main bearing block based on the T design, and a fully counterweighted crank to match, forged steel rods, forged aluminum pistons, and a full dry-sump lubrication system would be the cat's meow.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

PLUS...A replica Frontenac DOHC top-end, with the head and drive covers cast to look like vintage parts, but with state-of-the-art materials and combustion chamber shape and porting, plus multiple sidedraft SU or Amal carbs, would keep everything looking appropriately vintage, but offer power and reliability in line with today's engines (well, you'll have to tinker with the carbs from time to time). :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know the T was pretty amazing, a Model T won the 1909 New York to Seattle race when there really weren't any real roads west of the Mississippi. It was later disqualified when race officials found out the Ford team replaced the motor during the race, but it is still a pretty amazing feat.

 

As far as rule specifics for the community build, they are following the actual race rules. The major restriction is original engine, with period speed equipment allowed. There does seem to be some wiggle room however as some of the real cars are running later developments of the original, for example there is a '39 Chevy running a 292 I-6 instead of what would have been the original 216 I-6. In the real race one could probably get away swapping the I-4 out of a '34 Ford into the T, maybe even going so far as a 2 liter Pinto engine. I'm going to stick with the T engine, but later mods used on the Model A usable on the T shouldn't be an issue. 

The race is assumed to be 2019, so mild anachronisms are softer since it isn't so much doesn't exist yet as just not bending rules too far. Slapping a turbo out of an SVO would probably cross the line, I don't think sneaking a few parts from a Model A would be an issue.

I was originally thinking about using the 3 speed transmission from the Model A, but have instead decided to go with a Warford 3 speed auxiliary transmission. I don't want to push the T so far that it is basically just a Model A under the skin.

 

That said I'm fine with some discussion of Model A & B 4 cylinders as I may eventually go that route with a later model, and I'm sure there is some crossover. In fact I'm kind of hopping for some general discussion of popular mods to the 4 cylinders of this period. 

 

I am curious about the distributor vs magneto benefits. 

Edited by Aaronw
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Richard Bartrop said:

This article has pages from an original Frotenac catalogue  http://theoldmotor.com/?p=44904

 

I've seen some of those pages. Frontenac apparently made an 8v truck version which "only" pushed the engine up to 33 hp, which is a still pretty significant increase. I haven't seen any pictures of that one, but it looks to me like the other heads shared the same, or at least very similar valve cover. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Consider this:  In 1924, a Model T based car, using the then very new Frontenac 16-valve DOHC cylinder head, finished in the top ten at Indianapolis, against a field dominated by the likes of supercharged Duesenbergs and  supercharged Millers, and that after a lengthy pit stop during the race, when in order to replace a broken front spring, a couple mechanics had to run to the infield, jack a spectator's parked Model T, remove its front spring, run it back to the pits, and change into the race car!  (one story, which has some credibility, is that the spectator/owner of the stock T never knew what had been done, as the team ran back with a front spring taken from a Barber-Warnock Model T race car, and put that one into the stock one, nobody being any the wiser!)

Art

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Aaronw said:

...I am curious about the distributor vs magneto benefits. 

Here's an article from the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), dated 1916.    https://www.jstor.org/stable/44579439?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

In short, magnetos have two main advantages over battery-type ignition systems.

1) Because a mag generates its own power internally as it rotates, the ignition system will continue to function even if the rest of the electrical system fails entirely. This is the reason small airplanes are still equipped with magnetos to this day (almost always having two, for full redundancy). And even with a completely dead battery, or no battery at all, you can start a mag-equipped vehicle by pushing it.

2) Magnetos tend to produce a hotter spark at higher RPM than battery-type systems. This has obvious benefits as far as all-out racing applications go.

Unfortunately, because magnetos have points that control the timing, they share some of the shortcomings associated with all point-type ignition systems, one of the most irritating being a tendency for the contacts of the points to "arc" as they open, leading to degradation over time. This is controlled by incorporating a "condenser" or capacitor, but degradation still occurs, and the capacitor is a potential failure point (as it is in a standard battery/coil type system).

The points in a mag also depend on a rubbing-block that runs on the internal cam (just like in a distributor). They wear down, leading to changes in ignition timing (as they wear and close the point gap, ignition timing is retarded). 

Anyone competing with ANY non-electronic-ignition-system equipped vehicle would do well to check and file the points flat and square, and double check the gap and timing prior to every day's run.

verts+(2).jpg

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Here's the best one-stop info source I know of for all things hot pre-1934 four cylinders.

https://www.nwvs.org/index.shtml

 

Wow there is some great info there. 

 

The '25 Frontenac catalog in there shows the twin cam 16v version of the Frontenac, and that is definitely what is in the '27 T Police car kit.

500 miles isn't 5000 miles, but those Frontenac engines can't introduce too many reliability issues if they were consistently doing well in races of 100-500 miles. I also see that in 1923 a complete 8v Frontenac racing engine cost 3x as much as a new Model T.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Greg Myers said:

What kits had these speed parts ?

Some Model A four bangers thrown in.

Interesting none of the Monogram Model A kits had any...

All the Revell kits shown had either the Riley OHV conversion, or a Winfield high-compression flathead. Most had the Riley. The truck and its later derivatives, I believe, had the Winfield.

The Ala Kart double kit has another Riley OHV setup. That kit is the daddy of all the subsequent AMT '29 Ford roadster kits, which continued the Riley.

The only T there is in the XR6 double kit, which was the daddy of all the subsequent AMT '27  T phaeton kits...which all included the Frontenac DOHC from the double-kit original.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funny, I was about to post on pretty much this same topic for a Model A-based racer/rod I have in the planning stages. I've already done one T with the Revell A/B Riley head, and was thinking about my options for this next one. The idea of using the Olds head on a T block isn't a bad one, though it probably pre-dates the tech of the car that I intend to build by a bit. That was more of an early-mid '20s thing, IIRC.

 

Edit: Does anybody make flathead/'banger speed equipment in resin/aluminum? Kong ignition, etc.?

Edited by Dirty Dave
Added question.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dirty Dave said:

Edit: Does anybody make flathead/'banger speed equipment in resin/aluminum? Kong ignition, etc.?

Replicas and Miniatures of Md has a lot of flattie/ford banger speed parts. Click https://public.fotki.com/crstan/replican-and-miniat/replicas-and-miniat/ to see some of the parts.

Kong heads are occasionally available from from someone on eBay, same seller does a Frenzel supercharger setup for the flattie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dirty Dave said:

Funny, I was about to post on pretty much this same topic for a Model A-based racer/rod I have in the planning stages. I've already done one T with the Revell A/B Riley head, and was thinking about my options for this next one. The idea of using the Olds head on a T block isn't a bad one, though it probably pre-dates the tech of the car that I intend to build by a bit. That was more of an early-mid '20s thing, IIRC.

 

Edit: Does anybody make flathead/'banger speed equipment in resin/aluminum? Kong ignition, etc.?

 

I've gotten the nudge in the direction I needed, feel free to expand this into a more general 1920s/30s era speed equipment discussion. I'm finding this period quite interesting. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Aaronw said:

 

I've gotten the nudge in the direction I needed, feel free to expand this into a more general 1920s/30s era speed equipment discussion. I'm finding this period quite interesting. 

I agree. Early speed equipment is interesting to me because it was nearly all (with the exception of a few factory efforts) cottage industry and shade-tree engineering. If they had an idea, they tried it. If it sort of worked, they fiddled with it until it did. The rulebook had only begun to be written, and the sky was the limit, conceptually. Heck some of the technological dead-ends include the most interesting looking bits, IMHO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/26/2018 at 4:37 PM, Aaronw said:

 

I've gotten the nudge in the direction I needed, feel free to expand this into a more general 1920s/30s era speed equipment discussion. I'm finding this period quite interesting. 

Aaron....there was an article on early vintage hot rods (up until the mid 1930's) with ideas and examples, in the  February 2018 issue of the other model car magazine.  It is still available in the back issues section of their website.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, the Revell Riley Two-Port was only in the Revell 1931 Ford Tudor and (faux) Sedan Delivery kits, while the Winfield version was only in the Revell 1929 Ford pickup kits.  Both kits otherwise share a whole bunch of  additional brand name early hot rod accessories (details in the article referenced above).  

If all that is not enough, check out these references:  

Tom Woodruff's Rajo powered speedster:  

Tom Woodruff's Frontenac powered speedster:  

And these two on-line buildups:  

https://public.fotki.com/funman1712/tim-boyd-on-line-mo/tim-boyd-on-line-ho-11/tim-boyd-on-line-ho/

https://public.fotki.com/funman1712/tim-boyd-on-line-mo/tim-boyd-on-line-ho-12/tim-boyd-on-line-ho/

 

Plus, Tom Woodruff has just discovered this site with info on vintage racers and engines:  https://www.nwvs.org/index.shtml  (UPDATE....I missed that Bill had already posted this same link earlier in this thread....I agree with him, it's the most informative link I've seen yet on this topic....TB ) 

And finally, the Speedway Motors Museum has photos of many early hot rod era vintage engines...  https://www.museumofamericanspeed.com/displays.html

 

Hope that helps!  TIM  

Edited by tim boyd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, tim boyd said:

 

...Also, to the best of my knowledge, the Revell Riley Two-Port was only in the Revell 1931 Ford Tudor and (faux) Sedan Delivery kits...

 

Just to be clear, the Tudor and SD kits were derived from the original issue that included the Woody body as well, shown immediately below.

All the subsequent 1/25 '31 Woody-only issues (as shown above by Greg, and including the "Woodstock" and Advent issues) include the Riley parts as well.

Image result for Revell '31 Ford Woody

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bill....thanks for the added info.  I have the original combined release somewhere in my kit stash, so I knew about that part.  

But I remembered that the subsequent woody-only reissues had dropped all the hot rod parts and built only the (mostly) stock version.   

Just checked my kit stash, (I have the 1974 and 1997 Woody-only reissues), and was surprised to see the Riley Two Port, and even the dropped front suspension option parts there in all their glory.  

So thanks for clarifying....TIM

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll confess to not knowing beans about such old rods, so to make up for that, I try to figure out as much as I can from photos (I'm aiming to build a Revell '31 Ford 4-banger rod soon). The Jalopy Journal site is loaded with 'em, so if you use this kind of site specific search  https://www.google.com/search?q=site:jalopyjournal.com/forum+Model+T+speed+equipment  it should yield lots of photos and tech info. Click on the "Images" link to get straight to 'em.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:26 AM, Ace-Garageguy said:

Here's the best one-stop info source I know of for all things hot pre-1934 four cylinders.

https://www.nwvs.org/index.shtml

Great source for any builders looking for a lot of ideas for unique engine options and detail photos ! Thanks for posting such a great link!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/23/2018 at 11:31 PM, Richard Bartrop said:

This article has pages from an original Frotenac catalogue  http://theoldmotor.com/?p=44904

 

Can anyone tell me why the car pictured at this site has such a tremendously high hood line? It looks cool, but it's got to be hard to drive when the hood blocks the driver's sight line!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, TomZ said:

Can anyone tell me why the car pictured at this site has such a tremendously high hood line? 

My guess would be to accommodate some tall downdraft carbs. The Frontenac head itself doesn't add all that much height.

Beesley-I.jpg

Tall and narrow bodywork wasn't at all unusual, but the white car above is just...well...

Schoof-Special-Ford-T-racer-556x340.jpg

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TomZ said:

Can anyone tell me why the car pictured at this site has such a tremendously high hood line? It looks cool, but it's got to be hard to drive when the hood blocks the driver's sight line!

I assumed the high hood line was a result of whatever body was originally used as a starting point or maybe the hood is not too high but the seats are too low by comparison.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...