Desktop Manufacturing, Part 1: 3D Printing

[Ace-Garageguy]

Some time back, in a "kit review" thread that had a bad habit of running off the rails into "the kit manufacturers should do this and do that" (but with little grounding in the economic and technical realities of the model-kit-manufacturing industry as it exists), I posted several links to videos that illustrate pretty well what some of today's low-volume manufacturing options are, how they work, and a little about what they can do in the not-too-distant future.

I don't think the majority here saw most of this info, so I'm going to post a 3-part series of links to what can be done TODAY in LOW-VOLUME DESKTOP MANUFACTURING. The technologies are game changers, can conceivably keep the scale-model hobby alive and well for decades to come, and take a capital-intensive industrial business model and put it within reach of a middle-class guy working on his own.

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PART 1: We'll start with 3D printing, since almost everyone here probably has at least some understanding of the idea. This is the quality that's available today, right now, for the home operator who has a little money. It's not up-to-the-minute state-of-the-art, and it's kindof a messy process, but the results speak for themselves.

 

 

[Exotics_Builder]

Really Interesting!!

[Oldcarfan27]

This is revolutionary for the hobby! For the manufacturers, the aftermarket and the home hobbyists. This is just the tip of the iceberg. 

[mikemodeler]

This is the future of our hobby. While kit manufacturers will still crank out kits, I can see where individuals or small companies will develop items to enhance or change what the model companies offer us. Think about the recent 4x4 conversion from Fireball, if you would have told me I would spend $30 on a kit and another $30 on a conversion, I would have told you Heck NO! But here I am, with three conversion kits!

Thanks for sharing, excellent video and very interesting.

[MrObsessive]

41 minutes ago, mikemodeler said:

Think about the recent 4x4 conversion from Fireball, if you would have told me I would spend $30 on a kit and another $30 on a conversion, I would have told you Heck NO! But here I am, with three conversion kits!

Exactly Mike! While we can quibble about the cost of kits these days, if we really want to make it something 'special' we'll spend the bucks to get what it takes to make it so.

Nowadays, I'm not buying as many kits per se, but I am getting those detail parts and goodies that can give it that 'gotcha' factor.

And yes, Chief Joseph is leading the way in some very nice stuff made via 3D printing. Just his carbs alone can turn a mediocre 'blah' engine into something worth admiring!

[mikemodeler]

3 minutes ago, MrObsessive said:

Exactly Mike! While we can quibble about the cost of kits these days, if we really want to make it something 'special' we'll spend the bucks to get what it takes to make it so.

Nowadays, I'm not buying as many kits per se, but I am getting those detail parts and goodies that can give it that 'gotcha' factor.

And yes, Chief Joseph is leading the way in some very nice stuff made via 3D printing. Just his carbs alone can turn a mediocre 'blah' engine into something worth admiring!

Ya know Bill, you had to remind me of my ever growing collection of resin parts and in particular, Fireball items! LOL! Last night I was at the workbench and while my ADD was in overdrive, I looked at three or four different items from Fireball, Modelhaus, Scenes Unlimited & Olson Brothers as I jumped from WIP to WIP!

Yeah, my kit buying is slowing down, trading off kits I don't think I will build for those that I will and my accessory buying is on the rise, but I have to stop and focus on completing some builds before embarking on new additions to the stash.

If this 3D printing keeps up, I will have to get a second job to support my habit!

[MrObsessive]

Just now, mikemodeler said:

If this 3D printing keeps up, I will have to get a second job to support my habit!

You ain't kiddin'! While the regular kit buying has slowed down on my end, every once in a long while I see something that stops me dead in my tracks! Like this baby here! I'm about to make a post on this very car in the Big Boyz section.

If I was married I don't think my wife would appreciate me spending upwards of $800 for a model car kit.

But I ain't married sooooo...............

[Howard Cohen]

I agree that the serious modellers will spend more for parts and materials than many people realize, whether they spend it on decals, foil, paints, photo-etch, resin, 3D, whatever. Many years ago Revell brought out a snap Caprice Taxi/Police car. People complained about the $12 price tag, then went and spent $25 for detail parts without blinking. It seems we will spend the money on accessories while complaining about the basic kit, and most kits are basic. Most modellers will build the kit with the parts they have, not wishing to spend lots more on detail parts. Those who enter contests with massively detailed models are not the majority and the majority is the kit manufacturers mainstay. With the advent of 3D printing, we now have access to more detail parts and even the option of designing our own. Hmmm...endless possibilities? 

For the past few years I have been buying small collections in the area I live in, Toronto. I have bought about 40 collections averaging 3 dozen kits. Only 1 of those people has ever gone to a model contest or show. I know because I always ask. They prefer to stay home and build casually without any added parts from other kits or detail parts. That seems to be the customer base for the kits manufacturers. At the contests and shows, we see the heavy duty enthusiast who will spend the extra dollars. They are the 3D customers. Let's not confuse the two customers  

[Richard Bartrop]

Granted, you don't always appreciate how much you're spending on a project when you're doing it a piece at a time.

[djflyer]

My opinion has been 3D printing will be/can be a huge plus for the hobby.  Parts that cant be produced accurately in regular IM kits can be obtained through specialist suppliers.  Specific trim items that were never kitted, and likely never will be, can be produced. Entire car bodies can be done for almost any subject.  The capability of offering the same item in almost any scale is also a big plus.

But..there is already a fly in the ointment.  Apparently Shapeways - the biggest current producer - is not happy with handling all the tiny little pieces that modelers want. They (supposedly) have big price increases or limits coming on how small a single item can be. 3D Model Specialties, one of the biggest vendors there with over 1100 pieces, had plans to shut down or cut back his site as it exists.  Negotiations are on going so we'll see what happens.

[peteski]

I belong to a model railroad forum.  Due to all the Shapeways shenanigans several members decided to buy their own DLP printed (Anycubic Photon) and print on their own.  That printer is actually perfect for printing small parts.The results are pretty amazing.  If you are interested, scan through that thread: https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=45736.0

[Flat32]

I just bought one based on the review in Bill's post. The review in the railroad forum post is worth watching and the whole thread is very informative. 

Ray

[my66s55]

https://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=45736.0 Read the 3rd from the bottom post by Chris333. This is the reality of this printer. Absolute bottom of the barrel.  There cheap because they use cheap parts. The z axis is poor. The led is of such low intensity that it causes print time to almost double in some cases.

The lcd panel is a consumable. It deteriorates over usage time. Life expectancy is less than 800 hours. You might think this is a long time until you see how long it takes to print one of these parts. Guess who gets to replace it, as in remove the old and install the new. It uses a single led for it's light source instead of an array. If you look at the light from a flash light, it's strong in the center and fades out from that point. That means that the 120 mm by 68 mm is dissipated by as mush as half. If you purchase one of these printers, use it as a learning tool and than buy a decent one.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Yup, and for around $450 nobody should expect everything to be perfect, especially at this point in the game. This is still new tech, and the prices will continue to come down as print quality goes up.

Again, I stated in the opening blurb that the machines I presented weren't state-of-the-art. I suppose I should have also said this is an entry-level machine.

But the real POINT of the three-part post wasn't to extol the virtues of any particular machine.

Rather, it was to demonstrate that instead of endlessly complaining about what's not available from the manufacturers, and opining that a Borgward Hansa 1500 kit would surely sell a million units and make everyone in any given model company rich beyond their wildest dreams (if only the model companies weren't so lazy and blind to the tremendous market potential), that it's now entirely possible for somebody who's motivated and skilled to produce, for a tiny fraction of the cost of old-school design and tooling, anything their little heart might desire.    

[mikemodeler]

I think there will be a market for someone to create parts for those of us that do not want to invest in the technology or have that many unique items to reproduce. 

I bought stuff from Fireball Modelworks that he created using 3D technology for less money than I could have done on my own. I would rather pay someone to master the art of using 3D tech and creating some parts for me than to spend precious modeling learning by trial and error how to do it myself. Call me lazy, but there are many like me out here in that same boat. If time was not an issue for me, then maybe I would feel differently.

Over time I think we will see new companies emerge that will take on that Borgward Hansa 1500 project that Bill mentioned and produce it. Like a Modelhaus kit, it will be in the $100 + range, but given what it will take to produce, it will sell, just like Modelhaus kits did.

[Ace-Garageguy]

20 minutes ago, mikemodeler said:

I think there will be a market for someone to create parts for those of us that do not want to invest in the technology or have that many unique items to reproduce. 

I bought stuff from Fireball Modelworks that he created using 3D technology for less money than I could have done on my own. I would rather pay someone to master the art of using 3D tech and creating some parts for me than to spend precious modeling learning by trial and error how to do it myself. Call me lazy, but there are many like me out here in that same boat. If time was not an issue for me, then maybe I would feel differently.

Over time I think we will see new companies emerge that will take on that Borgward Hansa 1500 project that Bill mentioned and produce it. Like a Modelhaus kit, it will be in the $100 + range, but given what it will take to produce, it will sell, just like Modelhaus kits did.

Agreed 100%.

And I'm not advocating that EVERYBODY go out and buy this stuff and get up to speed. It will only take a few motivated individuals to combine the available technologies to change the landscape of modeling dramatically.

PS: I know a couple of guys who are so fast working with CAD, they can turn out a design for an individual printable part in short order; when they're working, the cursor's just flying around the screen (though I'm NOT one of them). But the potential is there for some really obscure stuff to be made available for "reasonable" money.

Fireball's exceptionally fine stuff is the shape of things to come.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[mikemodeler]

15 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

 

And I'm not advocating that EVERYBODY go out and buy this stuff and get up to speed. It will only take a few motivated individuals to combine the available technologies to change the landscape of modeling dramatically.

PS: I know a couple of guys who are so fast working with CAD, they can turn out a design for an individual printable part in short order (though I'm NOT one of them). But the potential is there for some really obscure stuff to be made available for "reasonable" money.

Fireball's stuff is the shape of things to come.

I think these videos might encourage a few people to consider getting into the model business Bill. As you highlighted above, it won't take a lot of people, just those that are sufficiently talented and motivated.

The biggest downfall I see is that time is still the enemy. Fireball had to stop taking orders on his 4x4 conversion kits to catch up with demand. If these companies can figure out how to produce the high quality pieces and not have long order fill times, they will have a steady stream of business, much like The Modelhaus did before their retirement notice. We have all read the posts here about companies who start out with a bang, only to wilt under pressure of demand.

 

All three of these videos are interesting to watch. As someone who has worked for various auto parts manufacturers over the last 35 years, it is eye opening for me to see the advances in prototyping parts. What used to take weeks or months now takes hours or days, very impressive. Thanks for sharing them!

[djflyer]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Agreed 100%.

And I'm not advocating that EVERYBODY go out and buy this stuff and get up to speed. It will only take a few motivated individuals to combine the available technologies to change the landscape of modeling dramatically.

PS: I know a couple of guys who are so fast working with CAD, they can turn out a design for an individual printable part in short order; when they're working, the cursor's just flying around the screen (though I'm NOT one of them). But the potential is there for some really obscure stuff to be made available for "reasonable" money.

Fireball's exceptionally fine stuff is the shape of things to come.

Agreed also.  Discussions I've had with other interested modelers also brought up the idea that this could be a business for the LHS take on.  I remember when (decades ago) R/C was becoming popular.  The local shop was one of the places you went to to get up and running (flying) and keep things working.  They had the people that had the knowledge and they had the parts needed.

Perhaps now the LHS could get in the business of printing for people that cant or dont want to take on 3D printing themselves.  Obviously it requires investment in quality equipment and having the people capable of doing it, but it could be a good source of revenue.

[Ace-Garageguy]

You guys need to be sure to watch the other two videos I posted, if you haven't already.

3D printing has been coming for a long time, and I'm almost to the "ho hum" point with it. It's here. It's a done deal, and the price vs. quality equation is rapidly improving.

But what's REALLY exciting to ME is the advent of desktop injection molding. It has the potential to alleviate the problems folks like Fireball have keeping up with demand...at least in part.

The process spits parts out literally in seconds, and though it's not appropriate for complex shapes that have a lot of undercuts like a highly detailed carburetor, it is perfect for simpler shapes that can have easily-managed draft-angles like cylinder heads, valve covers, wheels, etc.

Another possibility that I haven't seen mentioned yet with a desktop injection molding setup is that IT CAN BE UPGRADED (relatively easily by a competent mechanical engineer / fabricator / machinist) TO HAVE SLIDING SECTIONS IN THE Y AND Z AXES AS WELL, so much more complex parts can be molded.

[my66s55]

Ace, Mike, David, all good points. Now, I'm going to give you my thoughts on what could possibly happen. As far as Joseph goes, as far as I'm aware, he has 2 printers. One Phrozen Shffle that has all the qualities that the Photon lack and a Maoi laser printer. Laser printers are slower than dlp printer. He also is located just west of Pensacola and was right in the center of that last hurricane that came up the gulf. There are people who have upwards of 20 printers going at one time.

I posted photos of my Delehaye project in the on the workbench section. If you didn't see it, check it out.  Note the detail. I used the newly released Phrozen XL. It has a build plate area of 190 mm x 120 mm. Prozen has just announced and is taking pre-orders on the release of a printer with a 4k, 13.9 '' lcd. What's next? Phrozen printers are solid, well built printers designed to stand up to use. Add to this the fact that a flexible resin has been created and can be added to regular resin in any percent to create flexibility and decrease brittleness. Image a printer or two in a place like a locate hobby shop.

 

 

 

[Richard Bartrop]

PM Hobbycraft here already sells 3D printers, and they have for a while now.   And it can't hurt to check out who offers 3D printing in your area, and for how much.

[mikemodeler]

4 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

 

 

But what's REALLY exciting to ME is the advent of desktop injection molding. It has the potential to alleviate the problems folks like Fireball have keeping up with demand...at least in part.

The process spits parts out literally in seconds, and though it's not appropriate for complex shapes that have a lot of undercuts like a highly detailed carburetor, it is perfect for simpler shapes that can have easily-managed draft-angles like cylinder heads, valve covers, wheels, etc.

Another possibility that I haven't seen mentioned yet with a desktop injection molding setup is that IT CAN BE UPGRADED (relatively easily by a competent mechanical engineer / fabricator / machinist) TO HAVE SLIDING SECTIONS IN THE Y AND Z AXES AS WELL, so much more complex parts can be molded.

This was the most intriguing of all of the videos you posted Bill, for the reasons you state here.

Model kits will still be produced, but it's the conversion kits and bits and pieces that will flourish with this technology. 

 

The future of modeling is quite bright, it just has a new look to it.

[Randy D]

Great thread Bill !

I had the good fortune to meet Bill (Ace) at the recent Southern Nationals show in Georgia.  We were discussing this very subject as I had on display a 3D printed wire wheel in 1/24th scale.  I then meet Bill C. and Pico who post on this forum.  Bill C. has a store on Shapeways that features really nice stuff and he had his wonderful wire wheels with him.  Pico is a very talented 3D designer and modeler who is great to talk with as he loves to share his knowledge !  

   My interest in 3D printing comes from wanting to produce items for my home based model car online store.  As someone who is computer challenged in most areas, I knew I needed some help    I meet my future business  partner, Ricardo, at work.  He is a talented young man who has his own home business and brings the necessary computer skills to our endeavor, I just give him money!  I shared Doug's posts from a few months ago on the Wanhao D7  printers with him and we decided that this printer would be good for producing the small parts that will form the basis of my product line.  We purchased 3 units and included the "box" on each so we weren't tying up Ricardo's home computer.  The cost direct from China including shipping was $1600.00   Two of the machines will be producing goodies and the other machine is backup and parts.  Ricardo modified the machine's top on one so you can see it print. 

 I told Ricardo that if we could print a decent Borrani wire wheel we could probably print anything. This the latest effort printed at 20 microns.

 

 

 

[89AKurt]

I really need to learn what plastic is the best choice when ordering from Shapeways.  Seems to depend on who makes what.

[Randy D]

Wanted to post that and see if the pictures came through !    

Hopefully I will have product to sell by the first of the year.  If things go well we are looking to follow Doug and add a new machine that can produce larger items. 

One aspect of all the advancements in tech is the affordability of 3D scanners.  We hope to add a small unit to scan scale model parts and thus be able to replicate them.

 

Randy