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Team Associates 73 Grand Am Nascar race Car


DoctorLarry

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6 hours ago, swede70 said:

I tried to edit my post seen above to pump up the content.  I think I took about 150 Gray Ghost pictures when I was on the scene, hence other detail photographs are at my beck and call if only I sift through them carefully enough.  As for the 1:1 car, for quite some time the G.G. was quietly resting in a garage in nearby Brighton, MI., and for some exchange of messages, I was invited out to record everything I could with my digital camera, calipers, etc.  Gosh - the fellow even put the 1:1 car on jackstands so that I could further pour over it.  A terrific and rare experience this was as I'm sure you'll agree.  

As to my projects, I worried that it would be tacky to dilute focus from your own work for posting my own stuff on what is your thread.  Say 'please' and I could be persuaded to gingerly post some.

Mike K./Swede70 

I would like to see you start another post with your pics, instead of this one :).  References on old race cars are always in short supply and very welcome!

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Indeed - I'll start a new thread, although consistent with something part of a theme with regards to Herb Adams and Co., here would be a single short succession of photos. Replies regarding this might be better attached to a separate thread.  Indeed - a brace of H.L. Mencken books were spied behind one of my projects.  Pleased you caught that!  

I have two projects of the old Gray Ghost Trans Am '64 Tempest going, one in 1:25th scale based upon the Scale Coachworks transkit, the other based on a 1:18th Sun Star diecast model given that modifying such is what I normally do.  I started with the smaller plastic kit, while for access to the 1:1 topic prompted me to splurge and gather up the larger model. It's really rare for me to be allowed to inspect a period racer close-in, hence what would seem a duplication of effort.  Anything spied in white is either a resin clone of something or scratch built.  Short descriptions (big intake of breath here given I often overdo it) follow:

20157145_10203247711711320_8427088656456552172_o.jpg.5183330627e4c7a2b89ab1c974fd3c54.jpg

...the topic late-season in 1971.

5c4a529365ecd_GrayGhostScaleCoachworkstwo012(2).JPG.d0afb9401f8183089ad0c6e1b7d98e2f.JPG

...a 1:25th scale Scale Coachworks resin-bodied Gray Ghost with Lindberg interior panels, a AMT '66 Olds 442 chassis, and a bitsa Pontiac engine beneath an old Modelhaus hood.

5c3fbe3bca523_GrayGhostrevisited025.JPG.6edc37384897d8248ef3e7bace7e40ea.JPG

...the Sun Star 'Ghost with much scratch built.  The taped-on markings are preliminary decal art in-process.

5c3fbe859951c_1971GrayGhostunderhoodimagebestyetseen.jpg.d34bd96095ae5b5f0a13017e79d4e38f.jpg

...the topic underhood at Lime Rock '71.  From the new PP/SEMA archive, and a clearer version of what showed up in Motor Trend in-period.  This is the best period photo bar none, although if you'd like I'd be happy to send along other images of smaller assemblies taken close-in even as they reflect what the vehicle was like in 2011 or so.  

5c3fbedd489d2_GrayGhostrevisited026.JPG.772c6cc100e6d7f552e92d952c536266.JPG

...my model with revised 1:18th GMP '70 Judge 'power'.  Underhood panelwork is scratch built then.

5c3fbf2654e1c_GrayGhostrevisited017.JPG.84d03f01dc24c4deb54775b471dd4c9b.JPG

...rear three-quarter - and I'm done!  No more dwelling on me then.  Love the Herb Adams connection, while the scribble on the plaque is his when I briefly met him at a local book signing.  He was able to see the model, and in a scale-sense, bless the effort.  Thanks and I really like the NASCAR Grand Am effort Dr. Larry is working up here.

Mike K./Swede70

Edited by swede70
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Greetings Dr. Larry,

I don't know if you discovered this, but for searching the Petersen Publishing/SEMA archives yet again, I stumbled upon much more than the two race photos seen before. The cataloging in this instance was better, hence try some combination of '1973 Pontiac Grand Am Grand (including such twice wouldn't be necessary) National Car'  or try 'The Bill France Collection', although the latter search terms would likely involve a slog for what is likely a great many photos.  No  'Herb Adams' reference, no 'Winston Cup' reference - but oodles of detailed b& w pictures of both the interior and how the car appeared under hood.  Check out the O.E.M. steering wheel in particular! Needless to say, I was surprised and I sincerely hope you'll either know all about it and/or will discover this terrific spread of images thus.  Good luck!

Mike K./Swede70

Edited by swede70
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Looked closely at the pictures. The car has stock frame and floor pans. It was not "clipped" in the front with a Holman Moody clip. Front bars and roll cage were added, shocks were added and the front sway bar was flipped and mounted above the frame. Looks like stock control arms and steering as well. This thing was REALLY low-buck! It was literally a STOCK car that had safety stuff added and then, as they say,  went racin'. It has the stock cowl and firewall still welded to the body like it left the factory. The trunk was cut out and re-done for the fuel cell but this thing is really stock. How cool that they could run very competitively with professional racing teams with this car. Of course I will basically start over and save my current frame for another body. I made up a resin frame and floor pan for my Grand Am cars so I guess I will start over with that as well as my resin firewall. Good thing I made molds and copies of all the stock stuff! I have a new Pepsi Laguna that will sacrifice many of the other parts and another Elliot TBird chassis that will give up the truck arms and nine inch rear. Back to the table here. Interesting treatment of the rear spoiler as well. I always wondered why you saw squarish decals with 69 on the rear-the entire back of the spoiler was flat and covered up the rear tail lights. There is a shot with that panel off and you can clearly see the rectangular tail light openings. This is really cool and exciting (except starting from scratch, of course).

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Greetings Larry,

Not having remotely comparable topic knowledge in relation to period NASCAR as yourself, I too was thinking '...gee, this doesn't look like something that was ordered by phone from Banjo Matthews!'.  It really was so atypical and special, and competitive against strong odds.  Neat stuff all, while your previous work to be set aside in the moment will surely find a home soon - no worries.  

Mike K./Swede70

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Tim-any more pictures of that one? Mike-thanks for surfing the site and tipping me off. The pictures are amazing. There are over 100 shots and they show everything in detail except the undercarriage. My engine is inaccurate as well-their engine used a single plane intake like an Edelbrock Torker and a Holley Dominator. I had to order some resin carbs and will scratch build the intake. It looks like an earlier period car. I mean this thing is really stock-frame, firewall, suspension, dash, steering column and wheel, floorpans, everything.

Edited by DoctorLarry
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Greetings Dr. Larry,

I suspect that the intake isn't terribly different from what they ran on their '72-season Firebird Trans Am car as driven by Milt Minter.  Via the link provided you'll find a lengthy thread focused on the Pontiac Firebird in the SCCA Trans-Am Series.  Scan about halfway down it and you'll stumble across a few period photographs taken by one Ken Ulrich that will afford at least another shot of the intake, plus guidance as to finishes across the engine given it's a color image.  

See then:  http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=7815.0;all

Mike K./Swede70

Edited by swede70
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I've been mining these archives and am still amazed at the "stockness" of this car. The only thing lacking is a detail shot of the rear suspension. There appear to be some sort of traction bars on the lower control arms and there are some reinforcing plates bolted to the rear seat area but it does not look like truck arms. Also can't see a Panhard bar or Watts linkage in the back to control side-to-side motion. I also can't tell whether it has a nine inch Ford rear or a GM rear so I will wing it on those details. The rest of the car has a ton of remarkably detailed pictures so I should be able to replicate it pretty faithfully.

adams rear seat rollbar.jpg

adams ga back at speed.jpg

adams ga rear speed.jpg

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Greetings Larry,

If it helps, the Gray Ghost rear suspension was quite stripped down in relation to axle location beyond the rather standard looking four bar setup employed.  Much stiffer bushings of whatever material employed took up a certain amount of movement or slop.  No strict need for a Panhard rod, no additional trailing links, and certainly no Watts link was seen.  A B.O.P. rear axle assembly was employed even as rules allowed the fitting of something other than this, hence it seems that it was both strong and reliable enough.  Given the profusion of 'too stock to be believed' stampings and assemblies across the Grand Am in photos, I think I'd recommend the B.O.P. axle (being 'Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac') be employed.  Some effort was made to alter the geometry of the pickup points of the arms heading back from my photos, while it seems by the time the Team Associates Grand Am effort was mounted, a diff. cooler was judged necessary.  KONI shocks were seen then, but I'm really not versed or knowledgeable enough to suggest what was de riguer in Winston Cup NASCAR come 1973.  I'll return to this post to plug in a few rear end images from the 1:1 unrestored car even as they might not communicate all you'd hope.  Thanks...

Mike K./Swede70

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Hello again...

This should help - sorry I did not think to afford them before because some of this must certainly carry over.  In an unrestored state some things can be missed or overlooked, hence I've tried to scribble in a few notes consistent with passing on what I've learned for poking and prodding.  

5c4fdb546f0a7_GrayGhost9002.JPG.5a9c8911f8e1bf1fcc19d487cd401e9d.JPG5c4fdb6ce4ef6_GrayGhost9001.JPG.440b236cd5c78c7226c4b9adae18a3ef.JPG

...things to see above include the eccentric plates machined to mate the axle tubes to the diff. housing at an angle to afford negative camber.  Note too the zip ties on the base of the springs to ensure they'll not slip out, cables to prevent dislocation of assemblies at full rebound, and screw clamps employed to combat slippage of the rear sway bar bushings.  

5c4fdaccba6da_GrayGhost12018.JPG.d1816cb1ced3710c75f0e230a2e4e8cb.JPG5c4fdade0cc88_GrayGhost12019.JPG.cfb05ddf32d16ebc4114bb93e8b659a1.JPG

Things to see include the revised and nonstock top links for the four bar setup, as well as fabricated pick up points to revise the geometry versus stock.  The diff. cover was painted orange in this instance.  

5c4fdabfe1e1c_GrayGhost10007.JPG.d5b75e8b32def6424b8584e629454f23.JPG5c4fdb0014b1c_GrayGhost12020.JPG.aa93e8c851a11e47efab0b83f13bc80a.JPG

Not elaborate, but notice the small pinion snubber fitted, while further notice the additional material welded in to box the bottom arm or bar of the four bar rear suspension.  

5c4fdab6a7bcc_GrayGhost10002(2).JPG.fd3a4c64fd77b3b090c21e355f82ac5b.JPG

5c4fdb24b808d_GrayGhost12015.JPG.b2387ff8b7c5b07221bdf84e7681cd68.JPG

...maybe another thing employed, on the Gray Ghost a Firestone fuel cell was used, while the fuel pump set up seemed a bit unusual.  A pair of Holley pumps were mounted forward of the fuel cell within individually fabricated pockets with floors set lower than the standard dimensions afforded, while the structure for these pockets is plainly visible from below.  I hope some of this helps, while I really like the effort you've made thus far to capture a very neat topic in scale.  Thanks for all you do in turn...

Mike K./Swede 70

Edited by swede70
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