Engine help, please

[MarkJ]

Does anyone know the engine that was used in fords for 1978 and have a picture of one in a nascar ford from that year?  Thanks if you can help. My google searching has come up with nothing.

[yellowsportwagon]

Mark it would have been a Cleveland  engine. I don’t have any pictures but it would look like the engines in the later NASCAR Ford kits. The valve covers would not have been Ford Motorsport like the amt kit used. I just sand the fins and writing off and paint them silver.

[afx]

For what its worth here is a 351 from 1982.

 

[DoctorLarry]

Here's some earlier Torino shots:

[DoctorLarry]

Oops-first one was a Boss 9.

[Dave Van]

By 1978 the Ford teams were using 351 Cleveland blocks cast in Australia by Ford there....

In Cup dress they look much like the motor in the Monogram 1983 Thunderbird kit. 

[MarkJ]

Thanks guys for the discussion and the pictures. I don't have an  83 thunderbird kit but I do have an engine from an amt 1992 thunderbird kit. Would that work?  Also what is the difference between a 351 Windsor and a 351 Cleveland engine?

[DoctorLarry]

Externally nothing. Different cylinder heads but both would look basically the same.

[yellowsportwagon]

The cylinder heads. Are completely different on a Cleveland. They look like a Boss 302 head. A Windsor head looks like a 289 head.

[yellowsportwagon]

Look at the shape difference and number of bolts. First photo is Windsor second Cleveland 

[yellowsportwagon]

The blocked were slightly different too. But for all practical purposes a Cleveland was like a Boss 302 headed Windsor.

[Force]

The 90 degree family 351 Windsor and the 335 family 351 Cleveland are two completely different engines and don't share much except for bore spacing, bore and stroke, and bellhouse pattern (the taller deck 351M and 400 has the larger 429-460 bellhouse pattern), and they look different.

The Cleveland has a dry intake manifold and the water outlet is at the front of the block, the Windsor has a wet intake manifold and the water outlet is at the front of the intake, and as allready mentioned, the heads are different.

Cleveland engine block,

Windsor engine block, in this case a 289-302, the 351 looks the same but has just over an inch taller deck.

As for the Boss 302, it's a regular 90 degree Windsor engine block with four bolted mains and Cleveland style heads, but the Boss has a wet intake manifold like the Windsor.

 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Force

[yellowsportwagon]

That’s a better explanation than mine.

[Force]

Some say the Cleveland is a better engine but the Windsor was in production 18 years after the Cleveland was discontinued, Windsor was available 1961-2000 and 335 Family 1969-1974 for USA and Australia continued until 1982.
The head design is better than the heads of the Windsor allthough the exhaust side needs to be modified to work well, but the oil system in the 335 engine is a disaster for high performance and has to be modified for higher RPM, the Windsor needs no modifications, and the later 351M and 400 are useless.

[MarkJ]

Thanks again guys. Very interesting discussion. I am learning a lot.

[Bill J]

My understanding of why the Cleveland engine was discontinued is that Ford was not meeting emission standards with the Cleveland engines and decided to use the Windsor design for all it's small blocks. Cleveland engines have a much better head and intake design. Which is why the Boss 302 engine made good power and held up better because of the Windsor block type.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Bill J

[Goodwrench3]

Were the early 1980's NASCAR Ford blocks actually painted blue ?   The NASCAR GM blocks in the early 80's didn't seem like they were ever (or rarely) painted.

 

[MarkJ]

What I really need, if any one has one, is an under hood shot of any of the Bud Moore fords from 1976 to 1978. I know that is a tall order, but it sure would help. I found a small grainy under hood shot of a Junie Donlevy ford from that era but I think it might be a reproduction and not an actual car that was run back then. And the picture was taken at a road course race in Europe.

 

[yellowsportwagon]

That cars has been restored. It did run at Lemans back when. But that engine shot looks pretty typical of Fords back then.

[MarkJ]

Ok, I did some more searching and I have decided that the picture I posted is of the car that ran at le mans in 1976. That photo is of the 1976 car because the graphics on that car are not like the newly restored car that raced there recently. The modern graphics have the 90's in circles on the hood and doors and no big 90 on the roof. Also the drivers name on the roof is Dick Brooks and I know he did not drive the reproduction car. Also if you look at the people in the pits they are dressed like a seventy's crowd would have been dressed. My point is that the engine shot is very representative of a Cleveland engine run back then. I just wish it was a full shot and not so small and grainey. I found some pretty good shots of the engine in the reproduction car but they have the breathers in different locations  and the valve covers are finned on the reproduction car and don't look like they are finned on the 1976 picture of the car. Oh well, the search goes on.

[yellowsportwagon]

Mark are you on wastebook at all? There is some great vintage nascar groups on there.

[DoctorLarry]

I have a Stock car racing article on Moore's Torino, but no underhood shots-just chassis and interior.

 

[yellowsportwagon]

Those would be helpful too.

[DoctorLarry]

I will photo them and post.

[MarkJ]

Yes, please. Any shots of chassis and interior would be very helpful too.