Vega, Pinto, Gremlin Funny Cars

[Lunajammer]

Being a shooting brake fan and former owner of a Vega wagon and Astre wagon, I've always been frustrated at the poor dimensions of the Vega. Can't be built stock without wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

But it does fit the funny car chassis AMT used on its other short wheel-base American dragsters. All of these kits have the same wheelbase and body fitment. I believe the poor rear end proportions are self serving to drop onto that chassis with ease. I'd be interested in knowing if there is a real world (racing) precedent for this body mod.

 

 

 

(Photos courtesy of internet contributors).

Edited July 29, 2019 by Lunajammer

[Mark]

I don't know that the proportion issue has to do with making the body fit the chassis.  Not sure what the wheelbase is on a stock Vega, but the Pinto is 94" and I believe the Gremlin is 96".  The Vega is certainly in that ballpark.  The Vega and Gremlin bodies were probably done with no thought given to stock versions later.  The Vega wagon might have been done from photos as opposed to an actual car, in order to get the kit on store shelves right when the 1:1 Vega debuted.  All speculation though...

[Snake45]

I recently researched this and the real Vega and the AMX had exactly the same wheelbase, IIRC 97". I speculated that this frame was originally used in the JoHan '68-'69 AMX funny car kits, but Mark seemed to think not. 

BTW, to the best of my knowledge there were NO serious mid-'70s funny cars with wheelbases this short. 

[Mark]

These kits are closer to show rods than serious drag cars.  The first version of each of the three had dragster (spoked) front wheels which weren't used on funny cars bar the occasional odd-ball.  And try to fit a scale driver inside that roll cage.  There were a few funny cars with short wheelbases like these, most were Fuel Altereds that were rebodied in the quest for more appearance money.

[Mark]

24 minutes ago, Snake45 said:

I speculated that this frame was originally used in the JoHan '68-'69 AMX funny car kits, but Mark seemed to think not. 

Snake, the AMT boxed Jo-Han kits like the two-seater AMXs were all Jo-Han.  Same tires, same brittle styrene.  They were likely produced by Jo-Han at their facilities and packed in AMT boxes with AMT instruction sheets and decals.  I say that because of the plastic (same highly opaque, brittle stuff Jo-Han kits had) as well as the fact that those kits were not bagged.  AMT started bagging the unplated parts around 1969-70, in the mid-Seventies they bagged the plated parts with cellophane.  Jo-Han kits were never bagged until the Seville era.

That said, the Jo-Han AMX chassis under a Gremlin sounds intriguing.  The Jo-Han AMX is 1/24 scale (as are all post-1960 Jo-Han AMC promos, and all Jo-Han AMC kits save the '59 wagon but that shouldn't kill the idea.  It would get an AMC engine into the Gremlin (though it is a 1966 mill which wasn't used in the floppers).  I know I've got the parts to do this....

[Snake45]

15 minutes ago, Mark said:

Snake, the AMT boxed Jo-Han kits like the two-seater AMXs were all Jo-Han.  Same tires, same brittle styrene.  They were likely produced by Jo-Han at their facilities and packed in AMT boxes with AMT instruction sheets and decals.  I say that because of the plastic (same highly opaque, brittle stuff Jo-Han kits had) as well as the fact that those kits were not bagged.  AMT started bagging the unplated parts around 1969-70, in the mid-Seventies they bagged the plated parts with cellophane.  Jo-Han kits were never bagged until the Seville era.

That said, the Jo-Han AMX chassis under a Gremlin sounds intriguing.  The Jo-Han AMX is 1/24 scale (as are all post-1960 Jo-Han AMC promos, and all Jo-Han AMC kits save the '59 wagon but that shouldn't kill the idea.  It would get an AMC engine into the Gremlin (though it is a 1966 mill which wasn't used in the floppers).  I know I've got the parts to do this....

Yah all that, but is it possible AMT bought the short Logghe frame molds from JoHan? I don't recall JoHan using that (short) chassis again after the AMX. 

Come to think of it, when was the last time JoHan used the first-gen Logghe chassis in ANY kit? I know it was in the '70 4-4-2 (112" wheelbase); was it used after that? (Interestingly, the '70 4-4-2 was also sold in AMT boxes. I know--I actually have one.) 

[Mark]

The parts breakdown of the AMT chassis suggests that it was possibly cribbed from the Jo-Han piece, but the parts aren't the same.  The side rails are way different, for example.  I did just check a Gremlin body against an AMX.  Wheelbase on the Gremlin is 3/16" or so shorter.  I'd bet the chassis was designed to fit the Pinto (94" wheelbase, incidentally the same as a Chevette!) and then the other two bodies were cheated a bit to fit the same chassis.

Jo-han used much of that same chassis in many funny car kits.  The suspension parts interchange between them which is why I like that chassis even though it might not be the absolute best version of the 1:1.  It was used under AMC Javelins, AMXs, Hornets and Rebels, Plymouth GTX (but not Roadrunner), '64 Dodge and Plymouth, Ford Maverick/Mercury Comet, and Olds 442s.  The last kit that used it was a '74 Hornet issued in the late Seventies.  Those chassis can be found with engine mounts for Ford Boss Nine, 426 Hemi, AMC, and Olds, many different side rails, a couple different interior floors, and two sets of wheels.  The suspension bits are the same on all of them though.

[Casey]

On 7/29/2019 at 5:22 PM, Mark said:

I don't know that the proportion issue has to do with making the body fit the chassis.  Not sure what the wheelbase is on a stock Vega, but the Pinto is 94" and I believe the Gremlin is 96".  The Vega is certainly in that ballpark.  The Vega and Gremlin bodies were probably done with no thought given to stock versions later.  The Vega wagon might have been done from photos as opposed to an actual car, in order to get the kit on store shelves right when the 1:1 Vega debuted.  All speculation though...

Sounds entirely accurate to me. Since Funny Car was a new class for NHRA in '69, I;m sure AMT wanted a piece of the action, so three bodies which could be used with the same basic chassis made for a good internal sales pitch, I bet.

I doubt accuracy was a huge concern for AMT in '71, and while they clearly were influenced by Lou Azar's "Funny Gremlin", the kit's wheelbase was ridiculously short, likely for the reasons Mark mentioned, when compared to the real car:

 

The Logghe style chassis had fallen out of favor by '71, too, and solidly mounted rearends were soon to follow.

At any rate, we can enjoy they for what they were, and while not accurate, they can still be fun:

[Mark]

AMT's Funny Gremlin came first.  Lou Azar (later a wrestling promoter!) asked for permission to use the paint scheme on his car.  AMT said okay, as long as we can put your name on the kit box.  The kit of course has little in common with the 1:1 car, but AMT wasn't alone in doing that.

[Daddyfink]

From what I remember reading, the Logghe used in these cars was an earlier full length chassis, but it was cut up for these cars because it was already obsolete and it was not seen as that valuable anymore. Apparently it was one of the better kit versions of the chassis and you can add the missing tubing to fit other models that would be more period correct than these. 

I look forward to them coming back for the sheer nostalgia of it. 

[Mark]

The suspension parts and interior floor do bear a strong resemblance to an earlier AMT chassis, but that could be coincidental.  I haven't got an unassembled early kit to check against one of the subcompact car "short" chassis.  The earlier chassis had more plated parts, but that doesn't point to whether or not one was based on the other.

[Daddyfink]

1 hour ago, Mark said:

The suspension parts and interior floor do bear a strong resemblance to an earlier AMT chassis, but that could be coincidental.  I haven't got an unassembled early kit to check against one of the subcompact car "short" chassis.  The earlier chassis had more plated parts, but that doesn't point to whether or not one was based on the other.

It is an earlier kit chassis from AMT that has been shortened, because I really don't think AMT would tool up an obsolete chassis just for these cars. But then again, Revell did for their very cartoony early funnies. I will take a look at my Gremlin and compare it to my other early AMT cars to see what matches. 

[Snake45]

It looks a lot like the chassis in the JoHan '68 AMX, which AMT sold as the '69. That's why I suggested that it might have originated there. Or this chassis might be a copy/clone of that. 

I don't have that chassis anymore, but I do have one in a JoHan '70 Olds. I'll see if I can find it and compare them. 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Snake45

[Mark]

Parts breakdown is similar (all of the early chassis from all kit manufacturers are similar that way) but the Gremlin kit's crossmembers, rear axle, and radius rods look a lot like those in the earlier AMT funny cars (first '69 Camaro, longnose and Mach Won Mustangs, and '69 Cougar).  Where the parts attach to the trees would go a long way towards telling if the parts were repurposed.  I've got a Pinto and a couple of Gremlins that are untouched, but my Mustangs are either started or completely built, and I pieced my '69 Camaro together from a couple of started funny car kits and an annual kit body.

[Snake45]

55 minutes ago, Mark said:

I pieced my '69 Camaro together from a couple of started funny car kits and an annual kit body.

You wouldn't be interesting in swapping that annual kit body for a Funny Hugger body, would you? Prolly not, but it doesn't hurt to ask. 

[Mark]

Sorry, but I pretty much bought a (reasonable built) kit to get it.  I started with an original Funny Hugger kit, but that one had apparently been in a building that burned.  The box reeked of smoke and fell apart when handled, and some of the parts (including the body) were visibly heat damaged. 

The built/partial annual kit coughed up the body for this (just can't take those radiused wheel openings) and donated the interior bucket to another hardtop that needed one.