More Civilised Debate On This Forum

[MarvinGardens]

          Noel,

 

   Please don't take my comment about makin' here pay as anything more than just a suggestion. 

As to the digital rag versus pay forum differences: while I do tend to agree with your thoughts, my counterpoints:

1) If this forum was pay, there'd likely be a higher level of content quality (as no longer would most freeloaders with no real skill contribute),

2) Since there's already a great content of knowledge here, what possible benefit would a digital rag give over what's already here? (realize this ain't a slam,  but a real honest question)

3) If you have some real skin in the game (payin' for forum access), you will likely be more aware of what's up and try to police it and actually positively contribute.

 

   Several of the 1:1 forums I do frequent also have a 'donate' function, which also opens up a private area of the forum just for the donaters (and also increases their personal setting storage/PM capacity, and even gets you some real, tangible swag). Let's say the forum doesn't go pay and dies a sudden death, and the 'rag never gets printed because options weren't explored. Who actually loses?

 

   Personal opinion from 'troublemaker', but we ALL would lose.............. just keep that thought in the back of yer head!

 

[RichCostello]

I think it's ironic that some are worried about being more civilized on a model car forum when you can't go to WalMart without the possibility of being taken out by some nut job with an AK-47.

[Rider]

7 minutes ago, MarvinGardens said:

          Noel,

 

   Please don't take my comment about makin' here pay as anything more than just a suggestion. 

As to the digital rag versus pay forum differences: while I do tend to agree with your thoughts, my counterpoints:

1) If this forum was pay, there'd likely be a higher level of content quality (as no longer would most freeloaders with no real skill contribute),

2) Since there's already a great content of knowledge here, what possible benefit would a digital rag give over what's already here? (realize this ain't a slam,  but a real honest question)

3) If you have some real skin in the game (payin' for forum access), you will likely be more aware of what's up and try to police it and actually positively contribute.

 

   Several of the 1:1 forums I do frequent also have a 'donate' function, which also opens up a private area of the forum just for the donaters (and also increases their personal setting storage/PM capacity, and even gets you some real, tangible swag). Let's say the forum doesn't go pay and dies a sudden death, and the 'rag never gets printed because options weren't explored. Who actually loses?

 

   Personal opinion from 'troublemaker', but we ALL would lose.............. just keep that thought in the back of yer head!

 

I agree. 

I personally have made donations or offered a donation to ever forum I have been a member on. Including this one. 

 

This site has gotten much much better over the past 7yrs. There was a time when you couldn't post on here without being shot down like duck in hunting season. A pay as you go seems a god rout, and would keep the free loaders (non builders) who only post opinions. I like the idea of a vested interest as in a pay to play format.  

Just me 2cents. 

[hpiguy]

I really don't think people will pay to use a forum like this for so many reasons.

People want a magazine with editing and single track articles about subjects that don't get derailed about a different subject 14 times and also devolve into petty arguments, only to maybe deliver 10 posts out of 90 that give good content in a concise and direct manner like a magazine article does.

People don't want to sift through 215 random and off topic comments to find a picture of a kit build that may or may not have been removed by the hosting site by the time they build the kit in three months.

Few want to pay to read a thread on a new Impala kit only to have to weed through posts about the most minor of issues which would be covered in the magazine with half a sentence and moved on from.  On the forum it lasts for weeks, post after post rehashing the shape of a decals or roofline, etc.  We've seen it time and again. the horse gets beat, then all it's relatives get beat as well, then the barn gets torched too. Who wants to pay for that?

And also have to read through all the whining about the most pedantic things and never really delivering the content they pay for. Someone who is paying isn't going to tolerating being insulted or belittled or chased off by forum bullies, etc.

Anyone who gets banned or insulted or chased off will demand refunds, or call their bank  or CC for refunds (which they would probably get), etc. Guy pays for a year, gets banned in a month for a post that he thought was fine, calls his State consumer fraud division for someone taking his money and then blocking him from using what he paid for and so on.  Sure, you can add 'fine print' that says no refunds but most CCs will just refund the guys money anyway and hit you with a chargeback. 

The site goes down, people want refunds and will get them from their bank and CC company by showing them they got billed for a site that's not running for a few days..... What a mess it would be for whoever has to manage it all.



 

Edited August 18, 2019 by hpiguy

[Khils]

11 minutes ago, RichCostello said:

can't go to WalMart without the possibility of being taken out by some nut job with an AK-47.

 Don't even need that.......most think a minivan is sufficient! ?

[mikemodeler]

26 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I have noticed that some people tend to "perceive" hostility when there are general disagreements and then in turn become hostile themselves.

We need to remember that this is a forum and by definition it is designed for conversation.

Discussions can occasionally become spirited, but that is no reason to become personal and begin hurling insults at one and other.

We all have opinions and some of them can be strong, but we are adults and should be able to have enthusiastic debate without becoming belligerent.

 

 

Steve

To add to this, sometimes the written word is interpreted the opposite of what was intended as one cannot "get" the sarcasm, inflection or other subtle hints one may give while speaking in person. 

The other problem, as I see it, is that some people WANT to believe that only their point of view is the right one and will flog a dead horse defending their point of view endlessly.

[STYRENE-SURFER]

So many magazines are folding these days. One of my favorite food related mags shut down not long ago.

Question:( What is it, as far as the mag goes, that you don't get here?)

Yah, for sure I wish I had saved all my old copies to leaf through. 

But a digital database that was easily searchable online? 

I might pay for that. 

Now, I should say, I haven't ever subscribed, always bought them off the shelf.

My perspective is quite different than those of you who have subscriptions and are expecting something.

Hope this sounds civilized.

 

 

 

[iamsuperdan]

So believe it or not, the idea of a digital only magazine has come up in the admin forum. There is NOTHING definitie or decided, but I have broached the subject, and no one has said no.

 

As for a pay to play model for the forum, I don't see it working. Those who pay will not only want more content for their contribution, but they'll want more say in how things are run. On the surface, that seems fair, but I can't help but think that this would lead to many problems.

 

The more ideas that get floated, themore the staff and Gregg have to discuss. 

Keep listing your concerns, AND supply some potential solutions, and they will continue to be discussed and considered. 

 

 

[RichCostello]

1 hour ago, Khils said:

 Don't even need that.......most think a minivan is sufficient! ?

But a minivan is easier to dodge than automatic weapon fire.

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, mikemodeler said:

 The other problem, as I see it, is that some people WANT to believe that only their point of view is the right one and will flog a dead horse defending their point of view endlessly.

As I see it, there's nothing wrong with defending your point of view, no matter how rigorously, as long as it doesn't involve besmirching anyone else's character.

It usually only becomes a problem when somebody starts using disparaging comments about the "horse flogger".

Nobody is forced to take part in a protracted debate, but if you choose to, please be considerate.

Calling someone a "know it all" because they have a strong opinion is not going to help maintain civility under any circumstance.

 

 

Steve

[89AKurt]

If someone wants to get involved in a flamewar, go to Fakebook.?  You also get what you pay for.  Before I got a computer, with dail-up Earthlink connection, I had several magazine subscriptions.  Since then, I have cancelled *all* magazines, car related and Fine Homebuilding.  I pay for being on Flickr, to have access to *all* my photos, one could go free but they make it so you can't access past 200 or so.  The '68-'72 Chevy truck forum is free, unless you want to buy/sell with other members.  My vote, have a membership subscription.

[bobthehobbyguy]

On the subject of paying for the forum. First it is extremely difficult to charge for something that has been free. It really would have to be a value added feature such as digital access to all previous issues. Also how do you deal with those who are creating the content that gets people on the site.  You are going to lose those who generate the meaningful content if they have to pay for the privilege of contributing to the site.

As far as the digital version of the magazine Gregg is producing a digital version for those who want it. However that isn't something that everyone wants or has the means to access. Also many who have subscribed are expecting a paper copy.  As Gregg has stated subscription monies that were collected by Golden Bell and he never received those payments.

Don't really know the solution to the problem for getting the magazine back on track.  I thought the lifetime subscriptions were the best shot at getting the magazine on track.  Hope Gregg can make it happen because quite frankly Scale Auto has really become a disappointment. And if MCM can't be revived we could very well end up with no magazine supporting the model car community.

Finally I agree with the lack of civility in all aspects of life today. I  think that part of the issue is that communicating online some people say things they would never say face to face. That and the world in general seems to be getting more hostile every day.

[Rusty92]

On GMT400.com we have “supporting members” they pay $20 a year to keep the site running and get:

bigger avatar photo

larger inbox

ability to change their handle/username color

its pretty cool. 

[Bugatti Fan]

This thread has gone way off track about being civil, but the threads have made interesting reading none the less. I have noticed that in this debate many differing opinions have been  made, retaining a level of politeness to each other.

There will always be AK47 or similar shooting incidents. After Hungerford and Dunblane here in the UK automatic weapons and handguns in private ownership were quickly banned. Unfortunately, responsible gun owners who belonged to gun clubs and enjoyed target shooting  got caught up in all this and all weapons had to be handed in.

[Xingu]

Lets stay away from guns and politics and get back on track please.

[Jordan White]

11 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

On the subject of paying for the forum. First it is extremely difficult to charge for something that has been free. It really would have to be a value added feature such as digital access to all previous issues. Also how do you deal with those who are creating the content that gets people on the site.  You are going to lose those who generate the meaningful content if they have to pay for the privilege of contributing to the site.

I agree that the forum shouldn't outright go to a pay-to-play only model, but rather do like other forums and have a pay level that nets you additional features over the free version. This way you don't lose the traffic that wouldn't pay anyways, but would also possibly entice others to pay and thus bring in some additional income for the site. I would totally pay if access to all previous magazine issues (digitally) was available.

I know that the basic forum format is slowly dying, and any idea that would potentially drive away traffic further is probably not a good idea. I just know that as it stands, this forum blows the Scale Auto forum out of the water in terms of content, ease of use, and layout, and I would like to see it stay on top!

[aurfalien]

12 minutes ago, Jordan White said:

I just know that as it stands, this forum blows the Scale Auto forum out of the water in terms of content, ease of use, and layout, and I would like to see it stay on top!

Agreed 100%.

[GaryR]

The magazine and this forum belong to Gregg, not it's members.

I appreciate and am in fact, grateful for both!

That being said, more internet forums have been ruined by uncivil and ridiculous behavior than anything else.

The web seems to invite bad behavior doesn't it?
I can see no reasons at all for any animosity here, IT'S A FORUM FOR MODEL CARS!

Not the fate of the universe ! LIGHTEN UP! I can't think of anything model related to get so worked up over.

People project their crankiness, argumentative and negative nature online, just don't guys! just restrain yourselves.

I do notice that it's usually the same uber sensitive posters that get riled, maybe they should learn how to be polite and get along with others!

[Bespoke]

What about instead of the Pay to Play model you are discussing for the Forum, use a system that allows users to Donate? A Monthly/Yearly target could be added to the front page which automatically updates with a total received so Members will know how things are going. That way those that can and are willing can help financially with the Forum and Magazine, but you won't lose the number of active members, as people can still access for free. People will be able to see how things are tracking and donate more or less often as needed to reach targets to keep everything viable. Just my 2c, but i know it works on other Forums ?

[James2]

As I once stated, " You guys will argue over s#!t on a stick"

I got a warning point for that one....

LoL

[Bugatti Fan]

A pay to use forum?  Would enough people really pay for it either by subscription or donation?  Gregg has already stated that the 200 life subscriptions for the magazine fell well short, so would this forum go the same way if subscriptions were introduced? A number of folks day yes I would support it, but the reality is that many simply will not. Best keep the forum free it possible. If it goes to subscription I fear the usage will start to fall off quite quickly.

[mikemodeler]

The realities are this:

1. The magazine will take a lot of time, money and effort to resurrect, and Gregg has his hands full trying to do that. Not sure if he will be able to bring it back as we knew it but he seems determined to do so.

2. Revenue streams to sustain the magazine and this forum have been discussed multiple times and while some of us feel one way or the other regarding some of them, the responsibility is on Gregg to determine which will help him succeed.

3. A pay to use forum will only drive away members and those that remain will feel like they "own" a part of the forum and cause more friction.

 

I personally think the time has come to admit the magazine as we knew it is gone and it's time to consider either a digital version or go on without it. The idea of it coming back after being absent for so long sounds great, but given all the work that goes into the production and the fact that Gregg is trying to do it all himself just doesn't seem plausible.

As much as some detest Scale Auto, I am guessing they have their struggles too in growing their circulation and ad revenue to cover the costs of publishing.

I am sure there are some who will accuse me of attacking Gregg or the magazine and there will be others who agree with me, that's how this forum seems to work.

[Daddyfink]

The Harper Valley PTA needs to chill out. Really? Making it a pay site to drive people away? How on top of the hill of you! 

Why did I have to read this stupid Thread...I was doing just fine

Edited August 23, 2019 by Daddyfink

[Tom Geiger]

54 minutes ago, mikemodeler said:

As much as some detest Scale Auto, I am guessing they have their struggles too in growing their circulation and ad revenue to cover the costs of publishing.

I have always supported Model Cars Magazine for a couple of reasons.  First, I thought the hobby needed two magazines, because having only one can send the hobby in a wrong direction since it's unchallenged.  Both magazines have their place. 

Scale Auto is more of a broad audience magazine, trying to appeal to all model builders.  It's distant from the reader, much like reading any other car magazine.

Model Cars is aimed at the "Lunatic Fringe",  of which we all are card carrying members.  It's appeal is that it's more focused on high end building and the more niche vehicles we build.  It has the feel of a very good club newsletter.  It was for us, by us and you couldn't help but feel you belonged and had a stake in it.

I always subscribed and read both, as well as the old Plastic Fanatic and Model Car Journal.  To me, supporting these efforts was supporting the hobby.  

I will agree with Mike that reestablishing Model Cars Magazine is a long uphill battle. About the same as starting a new magazine.  I'd say that it would take about a year or more of on time delivery of a great product to get back in the good graces of subscribers and regain the interest of retailers.  Part of a magazine being in a hobby shop is that it brings people into the shop on it's publishing schedule to buy the magazine, and those people buy more stuff.   And for the longest time Gregg would say that IF he could get a distributor to put the magazine in retail chains, that would pay the freight.  He finally achieved that, and it was the first thing he gave up when things started to go downhill.

That said, I've always been a supporter of Gregg and the magazine.  Back when things were going well and Gregg had his health, he jetted to all the major events across the country.  He was the guy who nudged me to go to GSL the first time.  He was fun to be around.   It seemed that Model Cars was taking over the hobby in those days!   I'd like to see that happen again.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Tom Geiger

[Danno]

What Tom said!