Offering tips or blind praise- what SHOULD we do as a community?

[Phirewriter]

10 hours ago, MeatMan said:

My signature indicates I want constructive feedback. I'm trying to improve my skills.

I seem to remember someone posting on one of the boards I look at indicating he wanted NO negative input for anything they posted, interesting...

That said between this hobby, my professional pursuits and some of my other interests I always remember something I learned/was told many many years ago, there will always be someone better, more skilled, etc... than myself and therefore I always try to take inspiration or something positive from that in hopes of improving my own skills. Hopefully the members who post here can have that attitude given some of the excellent quality work displayed on this forum.

This hobby, at least for my purposes is for my personal enjoyment and as a creative outlet, not to be the best or better builder than my fellow modeller.

(I don't enter contests either other than the occasional NNL)

Edited September 9, 2019 by Phirewriter

[StevenGuthmiller]

It has gotten too the point where I will try to refrain from posting any kind of comments at all on the large majority of "Under Glass" threads.

Unless it is someone that I know, or have interacted with in the past, or if they have expressed genuine interest in the contribution of ideas, it has just become a mine field.

 

Generally, I will offer any help that I can with correcting any glaring problems with a particular build, or at least offer some help for the next one if I have anything to offer.

But in today's world, if you don't have express permission to critique, or have a friendly relationship with a particular individual that you are offering advice to, you're much better off just saying nothing.

 

Personally, I have always invited all contributions of ideas on my build threads and accept all critiques of my finished builds.

I will learn nothing if I cannot accept examination of my work.

 

To all posters on the board, if you are interested in an actual assessment of your work, please ask for feedback.

If not, chances are high that you will not hear from many of us.

 

In my opinion, if you are just here for the pats on the back, you will get little value out of a forum such as this.

 

I cannot tell you how much I have learned, and how much my building has improved since joining this board, and a lot of it was from people "piping up" when they see something that could be improved.

 

I say , "bring it on!"

 

 

Steve

Edited September 9, 2019 by StevenGuthmiller

[DiscoRover007]

I think you just have to use your best judgement. I also noticed the threads you mentioned OP. However I think with some threads you get the understanding upon reading it whether they are into the hobby to improve and become a more refined modeler or if they simply do it for fun and enjoyment.

Sometimes i notice a well done build 8/10 but I see one thing that is an eye sore yet I reserve comment because I think it would take away from the accomplishment of completing the kit. Generally though I think those that get more refined in their skill do so because they are their own critic, not because someone tells them whats wrong.

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

On 9/7/2019 at 7:37 PM, mikemodeler said:

I am the first to admit my models are built for me and by me and have yet to share them with this forum, so I will tread lightly here.

Absolutely do not let anything stop you from showing your work here Mike!

If you are truly interested in improving your skills, ask for any tips or suggestions on things that you can do to improve on future builds and you'll get suggestions for techniques that you never knew existed!

Think of the board as a "modeling class room" and you will learn things that you never knew possible.

I surely have.

 

Occasionally, I will have someone thank me for suggesting a tip or technique.

I can tell you right now that not a single one of those techniques was invented by me.

Every one is a direct copy or variation on a technique that someone else had already tried or perfected.

 

 

 

Steve

[niteowl7710]

This seems to be the only hobby I know of where some people seem to intentionally revel in not improving. This whole tired - "I build for myself"- cliche jumped the shark with the Fonz. News flash unless you're building on commission we ALL build for ourselves. Nobody takes up golf in hopes of being bad at it. Nobody's gonna give you a high five and congratulate you on bowling a 37.

Next thing that needs to go is all of the Whataboutisms. What if he had is arm blown off in the Nam? What if he lost 98% of his vision to an attack of rabid badgers? What if he was buried alive with his model? Like YOU could do any better dead in a coffin!!!

This is a lost cause here, long ago a decision was made by the powers that be that MCM is a no critique (unless explicitly sought) zone. 

[RichCostello]

I'm with James. I think that the act of posting pictures of your builds opens you up to comments(praise or criticism). If your skin isn't thick enough to accept help from someone that might have a better way of doing something, then don't post pics.

[Bugatti Fan]

Criticism is ok as long as it is constructive. Personally, I welcome any valid criticism that might help me improve my models.

Unfortunately there are many who's sensitivities are such that they cannot differentiate constructive criticism from a personal insult when none is intended. 

[peteski]

There have been few threads where I abstained from commenting out of fear that my comments might be negatively received.

[Jhedir6]

This is one of those subjects you can never win on. 

I've seen post of builds that were quite frankly, not very good, but the person receives a ton of praise. But as stated by others, you dont know that particular builders situation. Maybe they have a disability or are recovering from an injury or a stroke, and at the moment of posting that was the best they could do. 

Others seem to think that what they are posting is "fantastic", when it's not, and have no interest in improving their skills. And should you try to point something out, they lash out. These people I avoid. And it doesn't take long to figure out who they are. 

I remember several years back and young modeler posting here, and we knew he was young cause he stated it. His builds weren't very good, but you could see he was trying and each build got better. Some people would post huge praise (and rightfully so) and others would post constructive criticisms and tips on how to improve. This young builder seemed to understand that he wasn't being attacked but help and listened and absorbed those tips and encouragements and continued to improve....improve more than me and many others. Now, when I see his posts, I am amazed at how good he's become in not that many years. I wish the internet and forums like this and others were around when I was young as I had no teacher, just the few magazines I picked up now and then. Now, I've learned a lot from this forum myself, and know I'm much better than I use to be.

As for me, I have not problem with criticisms, I actually ask for it in most if not all of my builds. If someone trashes me, I'm thick skinned enough to take. As a point in case, I did a 24hr build back in January. I posted pics here and everyone that replied was great. I posted the same pics on FB and again everyone was great, except one guy, who was a total jacka$$. Now I laughed it off. I knew my build wasn't perfect, as anyone who's done a 24hr build knows, there just isn't enough time, unless you're one of those .1% that just seem to make no mistakes. I was pretty happy with my results. But over all, I rarely see anyone "trash" someone else's builds just for the sake of doing it.

In the end, it comes down to what your mother taught you " if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all".

[Spruslayer]

Ill throw my nickels worth in this one.

From a rookie view i would welcome critiques of the builds i post.Wile i build mostly OOB there are times when i am stumped to figure out how a certain part goes on a kit.If someone posted that i put part "X' on upside down,i would be grateful for the tip.I have learned far more from this forum that any other modeling forum out there.

 

I just finished the Shell tanker trailer and there was parts i still am not sure i put on correctly. Things such as color choice i would consider an opinion which dosent take away from the skill set but i understand it may not be right for that particular subject.I will have to plead guilty to posting in the under glass section with builds that are not completely done.

For me this hobby keeps a old retired guy hands busy and entertained and i really dont have a desire to produce a show winner but rather a man cave shelf sitter that you can look at and know what it represents.

And wile im whining,what up with the revelry between this board and the other forum which i wont name.

Spreading love,not hate woudl help this entire subculture hobby top to bottom in MHO!❤?

 

 

[randyc]

A "great job" post certainly can give one a little validation that their work has been noticed.   I have seen some questionable builds get praise and I have no problem with that.  It seems to encourage them to keep trying.   I like to get "great job" posts on my builds.  I've done this long enough to know where my issues with any build are and am not going to be upset if someone else calls me out on it.   As for "I build for me", I do.  I build what makes me happy and I don't build for contests or anything else.  Well other than the friend of mine I build for.  In return, he provides kits and diecasts for my collection.   

I do try to improve every build.  Not sure where else I can take my building at this point.  I've tried superdetailing - am getting too old and my fingers are too big and unreliable to do a lot with tiny parts.   I drop kit parts, so trying to fab up a carb linkage would be an exercise in frustration.   I can't compete with the ultra slick polish jobs.  I don't want to.  I try to do nice paint though.  And a "good job" post helps.  Everyone likes praise.  Not everyone likes or wants criticism.  And they have to be amenable to criticism.

I try to make my builds interesting to you guys, but I build for the fun of it.  My wife offered to let me build all day yesterday.  I did a couple sessions for about 5 hours.  Finished one - in Under glass now.   Paint is shiny but "orange peely".   No one has commented on that but they have commented on the paint color choices.  I admit it looks less than perfect, but it has a back story for my building of it and why it looks like that.  Even though it wasn't intentional, necessarily.   I am fighting to learn to use Wet Look clear half as good as many of you do.  LOL  

I also started the body on another.   My improvement will be incremental.  Right now, I try to get the body as perfect as possible - scribing the panel lines and around my chrome before the first coat of paint.  I will have 2 - 3 hours in smoothing and scribing before anything else much happens.   A "good job on the foil" will make that worthwhile to me; a tip to improve my paint is always welcome as well.  

No way to change how things are.  Just glad we are all here to share our hobby.  

[Jantrix]

22 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Not commenting at all is equally negative.

This is an issue. We turn off a fair amount of modelers here, just by not commenting because we don't want to ataboy a deeply flawed model. Posting a model, getting 300 views and 2 comments is a real soul crusher. I have had club members tell me that this forum is full of snobs after having a bad experience with this. 

6 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

Unfortunately there are many who's sensitivities are such that they cannot differentiate constructive criticism from a personal insult when none is intended. 

I've seen this many times both online and at contest. There is nothing for it sadly. I've been reported to admin for my comments. 

[Motor City]

My philosophy has been to build kits to resemble the appearance of promos, without Bare Foil, black wash, etc.  I want the engine to be the correct color, the chassis to be the correct color (body color or black - depending on the real car).  I don't Bare Foil the trim because on many models, the moldings and emblems aren't to scale or Bare Foil looks too thick.  I've seen many awesome builds on this forum, and some with horrible paint jobs.  Not everyone has the talent or is willing to spend the time to duplicate every detail such as ignition wiring, painting the individual caps on the battery, or other small details.  I'll save the minute detail to the models of real cars I've owned.  

[randyc]

3 minutes ago, Jantrix said:

This is an issue. We turn off a fair amount of modelers here, just by not commenting because we don't want to ataboy a deeply flawed model. Posting a model, getting 300 views and 2 comments is a real soul crusher. I have had club members tell me that this forum is full of snobs after having a bad experience with this. 

 

I had a friend on here email me.  He posted what seems to me to be a valuable potential resource thread and no one replied.   He was wonrdering if it was worth his effort.  I try to reply to things like that so folks do know it's being seen.   But some threads aren't going to get a ton of replies.  I updated a workbench post recently and no one replied.  I'm okay with that because I posted it for someone who may be searching for information on that particular model   I always look up model before building to look for the pitfalls I may encounter.  Surprisingly, there aren't a lot of articles on even the most popular kits.  Or you may not hit on the correct search terms.    

If I see a post getting a day or two old and no replies, I try to reply so they know someone is looking.  And it moves back to the top so others can see it for the first time maybe.

[Snake45]

4 minutes ago, Jantrix said:

This is an issue. We turn off a fair amount of modelers here, just by not commenting because we don't want to ataboy a deeply flawed model. Posting a model, getting 300 views and 2 comments is a real soul crusher.

FWIW, I started keeping some rough statistics on this a while back. I've discovered (on both my builds and others) that if you get 5% comments versus views, that's just about average. In other words, if you get 10 comments for 200 views, that's just about par for the course. A build that gets 10% comments for views is really exciting people for some reason. Over 10% and that's something REALLY hot or interesting. 

Also, some builders/posters seem to get more views and/or comments than others. Just like real life. 

[Xingu]

A lot of views are from people who are not members of the forum and are not allowed to post.

[Bill Eh?]

2 hours ago, Xingu said:

A lot of views are from people who are not members of the forum and are not allowed to post.

I am a member of the forum, but have not commented thus far. Michael, as to your post from above, I now see this message before I log in:

"Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account."

 

I'm not sure if this might be a contributing factor in this situation. People may comment, because they can, and then not register as forum members.

[Bill Eh?]

I just reread your post Michael, and reread all of the prior posts. I apologize as I believe that I misinterpreted your comment.

Are you saying that the low comments to views ratio can be partially attributed to lack of membership?

[Mr. Metallic]

Here's my take.

If I have something positive to say, I'll post it. If I like an build overall, I try to pick out something specific to comment on, just to show I gave it a thorough once over, not just an "atta boy"

I never post criticism publicly on a finished build, unless constrictive criticism is specifically asked for. If I see an issue on a finished build I will send a private message. That way the person can take the comment and do with it what they will without the potential for public embarrassment. Every time I have taken that route it has been appreciated by the builder. It takes the same amount of effort to send a private message as it does to post a public comment.

Commenting publicly on something in progress is a different story. Since it's in progress the builder still has an opportunity to take your suggestion for improvement, or ignore it.

[Richard Bartrop]

As always, there are degrees on these things.  I think if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything is probably still a good rule of thumb.  If people really want help, they'll ask for it.

On the other hand, the people saying that their soul gets destroyed by a lack of comments, there could be any number of reasons for that have nothing to do with hating you, or your model.  Basing your self worth on the number of comments (or likes, or whatever) is the way to madness.

Not something I've seen a lot here, but on other forums, someone will say that they are upset when too many people post exceptional work because it makes them feel inadequate about their own work.   I'm pretty sure the forum rules prevent me from saying what I think of that notion.  There are some outright masterpieces on this forum, and it would be dark times indeed if people thought they should stop out of concern for their precious self worth.

[Xingu]

5 hours ago, Bill Eh? said:

I just reread your post Michael, and reread all of the prior posts. I apologize as I believe that I misinterpreted your comment.

Are you saying that the low comments to views ratio can be partially attributed to lack of membership?

Not low membership. We actually have a fairly large membership.

If you are on the main forum page and scroll to the bottom, it will tell you how many people are online. When I just checked, it was 73 members and 157 guests. The guests can see most of the content, but cannot post comments. That is how the views can greatly outweigh the posted comments.

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 hours ago, Richard Bartrop said:

As always, there are degrees on these things.  I think if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything is probably still a good rule of thumb.  If people really want help, they'll ask for it.

On the other hand, the people saying that their soul gets destroyed by a lack of comments, there could be any number of reasons for that have nothing to do with hating you, or your model.  Basing your self worth on the number of comments (or likes, or whatever) is the way to madness.

Not something I've seen a lot here, but on other forums, someone will say that they are upset when too many people post exceptional work because it makes them feel inadequate about their own work.   I'm pretty sure the forum rules prevent me from saying what I think of that notion.  There are some outright masterpieces on this forum, and it would be dark times indeed if people thought they should stop out of concern for their precious self worth.

Yup.

But that line "on other forums, someone will say that they are upset when too many people post exceptional work because it makes them feel inadequate about their own work" boggles the mind.

[Richard Bartrop]

3 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Yup.

But that line "on other forums, someone will say that they are upset when too many people post exceptional work because it makes them feel inadequate about their own work" boggles the mind.

I've seen that on some art forums, mostly from younger members.   Thankfully, most outgrow it pretty quick.

[Don Wheeler]

Don't you think a modeler deserves some kind of encouragement for posting their work?  Maybe you think it's c%#p, but they are proud of it and want to share.  You don't have to say it's fantastic, but does it hurt to say nice job or something similar?  What's the harm in giving a little praise?  Of course, if they ask for a critique, that's different.

Don

Edited September 10, 2019 by Don Wheeler

[Ace-Garageguy]

20 minutes ago, Don Wheeler said:

Don't you think a modeler deserves some kind of encouragement for posting their work?

No.

20 minutes ago, Don Wheeler said:

 ...Maybe you think it's c%#p, but... does it hurt to say nice job or something similar?  What's the harm in giving a little praise?

Praise for "c%#p"? Isn't that actually lying? Lying pretty much never makes anything better, no matter what kind of good intentions the lie is dressed up in.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Ace-Garageguy