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Death of the Hobby


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This has been a very interesting topic to read through.  Times change, deal with it. ?  Nobody mentioned model rockets.  When I was a teen, it was this or Bandai Africa Korps, or the occasional car model.  First ones you needed to do woodworking, then they started using plastic nose cones and then fins, to make it easier.  I liked the challenge of making really smooth balsa fins by adding tissue paper over the dope.  This Estes Pershing had the D engine, I got the Flight Systems F engine transkit, what a blast, until the chute failed on the nose cone.  Now they have liquid fueled metal rockets that you need a pickup to carry, and a license, and file a flight plan and holy cow!  ?

Pershing model rocket.jpg

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I looked at the Lego link in an earlier post at their Bugatti Chiron site out of real interest only to be disappointed. Technically it is brilliant, but I would have expected the bodywork to be smooth like the real car on such a huge model. It just looks like Lego and toy  like to me, so I will not be in the market for one. Airfix  managed to use the Lego like build concept on their 1/24 scale Bugatti quick build kit quite successfully. Admittedly there are less than 40 parts on their kit but at least the body looks good. It has its drawbacks as it is aimed at kids to click together in half an hour and play with. It is a pity they did not make it a proper snap kit like Revell and Lindberg with full interior detail

Edited by Bugatti Fan
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3 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

I looked at the Lego link in an earlier post at their Bugatti Chiron site out of real interest only to be disappointed. Technically it is brilliant, but I would have expected the bodywork to be smooth like the real car on such a huge model. It just looks like Lego and toy  like to me, so I will not be in the market for one. Airfix  managed to use the Lego like build concept on their 1/24 scale Bugatti quick build kit quite successfully. Admittedly there are less than 40 parts on their kit but at least the body looks good. It has its drawbacks as it is aimed at kids to click together in half an hour and play with. It is a pity they did not make it a proper snap kit like Revell and Lindberg with full interior detail

I looked at the Lego instructions and the pages.  Like you, the textures are disappointing to me.  But I think Lego ppl see their models differently.  And it is not a replica in teh way we think of.  I do like the Airfix models and intend to get my son one.  That looks like an attempt to bridge the Lego builders and modelers like us.   That might work to get him into building scale models?  We'll see. 

My son doesn't play with his cars too much anymore so play value isn't as weighted.   He does like a new car once in a while, hotwheels or diecast usually.  If he gets a new one, he displays it and "manages" his collection.  

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35 minutes ago, randyc said:

I looked at the Lego instructions and the pages.  Like you, the textures are disappointing to me.  But I think Lego ppl see their models differently.  And it is not a replica in the way we think of. 

I believe we modelers see the car first, and that it's a plastic kit second.  Lego builders see it as Lego and what they built from the medium.   If that makes sense to y'all!

And remember that Lego almost went out of business at one point.  A fresh new CEO took over and revived the brand to the phenoma it is today.  There are books on the subject and business majors study the transformation.  I think today's model companies could take a lesson from it!

There is a local toy store here in Exton called "Monkey Fish Toys".  Their major business is in the high end hard to get Lego sets. We're talking hundreds of dollars each!  So there is money in that hobby.

Edited by Tom Geiger
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The Chiron has working sequential gearbox. 4wd transfer case, steering rack, visible working pistons, rods, crank, halfshafts, and is constructed like the real monocoque.  The body is more of a see thru/cutaway than a poor representation. same with their 991 GT3 RS. Kids don't learn about how cars work anymore, that's what these teach, and persistence as well. More like a Visible V8 than a BelKit. I had trouble with the steering rack in Bugatti, left out a gear by omission. Dad showed me how to take subsequent sub-assemblies apart to get to the gear without backing all the way up. We discussed how engineers need to make stuff to be repaired too, if a part fails. I learned a lot from that. Since I'm headed for engineering, it stuck with me. 

My dad got me interested in full size cars and modeling with snap kits, random builders out of his huge pile, and Michael Schumacher Lego F1 Ferraris. My sister too. Always had exotics in garage, used them as cars, not worship objects. Never saw a boat, car, WW2 fighter, or car he didn't like. Taught us to appreciate build quality, parts beauty, pre-computer slide rule engineering. Went to Power Tour, Goodguys, F1, Pebble Beach, and various Historics. Lots of exposure few get.

Funny to me that so many hate on current trends here but don't even have smart phone. Big wheels can be too big, but it's their car. Car guys don't leave modern cars stock. And asking for models of a Rambler wagon are akin to asking for a kit of a '17 Corolla DX. Who cares. Forza has latest hot car in game, paintable, and tunable with camber, caster, roll bar settings, locking diff settings, and spring rates, jounce and rebound shock settings. That's stuff few understand, but some of the 10 million Forza Horizon players do. They're virtual models. 

Acceptance, and something current, not kits of 40-50yo cars that weren't very well built to start with, will advance the hobby. Heaven help us if a drip rail or trim group is misrepresented. LOL. Perspective too, as pointed out above. Just a second generation thought. 

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1 hour ago, DukeE said:

 ...not kits of 40-50yo cars that weren't very well built to start with...

By whose definition? I was with you right up to that point. I have 50 year old cars that will be running when this generation of tin-box, overcomplicated, in many cases poorly-thought-out, nightmare-to-service appliances is unrepairable without being re-engineered, because the electronics and software won't be supported anywhere on the planet.

The new stuff works great until it doesn't. When it's out of warranty, good luck. And yes, I'm in the business.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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53 minutes ago, Richard Bartrop said:

There is a community devoted to old computer games, and some have gone so far as to write emulators so that they can run old games.  If it comes to that, I can see future car enthusiasts programming existing chips to perform the function of ones they can no longer obtain.

It's already being done where it's cost effective. But on a vehicle like my '89 GMC with early EFI, the "reasonably priced" aftermarket support parts are substandard offshore garbage. After having multiple back to back failures, I finally retrofitted the thing with a carb and an old-school HEI distributor. Hasn't missed a beat since...several years now...though I was supporting the local wrecker service prior.

Cheap old electronically-encumbered vehicles will be junked, because the average owner of a car valued at $1500 can't afford a guy like me to keep it running when parts aren't available. Yeah, when they finally make it to collector status, the very few that do, some enterprising fellas will do what it takes to keep 'em going...once it's worth mucking with.

We're already seeing non-repairable multi-speed automatic gearboxes. No internal parts available, no documentation. Buy a new box that can cost almost as much as the car is worth, or junk the whole thing. Same thing in many cases with engines. Sure, you can buy a low mileage engine or gearbox out of a wreck, but used electronic components are a risky buy at best, and are usually non-returnable if they're no good.

So yeah...you can fix this new stuff when it gets old...like I said, by re-engineering it (which includes substituting mechanical bits and hardware / firmware / software that's no longer available). Re-engineering of cars that are today 40 or 50 years old is not necessary, and it's easy for any competent mechanic to keep one operating, as new, indefinitely.

Keeping older computer-dependent cars on the road in the future is going to be difficult at best. But the way the car is seen by more and more folks as nothing but a disposable appliance, like a toaster, it's probably not going to be a problem that affects anyone but the lunatic fringe anyway. GM is working towards getting away from the "selling cars" model, and instead partnering with something like Uber to supply "transportation on demand", probably driverless too.

Yuck.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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The domestic model companies (mainly Revell at this point) don’t need to make models of uninteresting modern subjects, they just need to make more kits of modern subjects in general. There are dozens of different subjects that are interesting that they could do and still sell a bunch of kits. Modern pickups are big right now, and there’s no glue kit of any new Mustang. There are several sporty hatches, the recently stopped Chevy SS, the Challenger in numerous trims, just to name a few. Plus if the engines and drivetrains are nicely detailed, then they are great swap material for older subjects.

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I think Aoshima is probably the company that is most in tune with the trend and what modellers really want to build right now. Revell is still rehashing old kits. Tamiya is still high quality and their subjects make great stock representations.

I"m desperately waiting for one of these companies to make a modern 1/24 Tacoma, Nissan Frontier, modern Montero, or even a Land Rover Discovery 2. Those kits would sell like hot cakes. The SUV market in models has barely scratched the surface of its potential.

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10 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

By whose definition? I was with you right up to that point. I have 50 year old cars that will be running when this generation of tin-box, overcomplicated, in many cases poorly-thought-out, nightmare-to-service appliances is unrepairable without being re-engineered, because the electronics and software won't be supported anywhere on the planet.

The new stuff works great until it doesn't. When it's out of warranty, good luck. And yes, I'm in the business.

I'm going to take a stab at it and guess that he meant that the 50 year old car KITS are the badly built - or more accurately badly engineered - things in his statement. 

And they are. Over shallow interior tubs, mile thick glass, chrome headlights, holes in the engine block for music wire axles, exhausts and suspensions molded to the chassis plate, and on and on down the list. 

I'll personally bake a cake for the forklift operator who "accidentally" drops the AMT '33 Willys Sedan Delivery tooling and renders it unusable. 

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45 minutes ago, Justin Porter said:

I'm going to take a stab at it and guess that he meant that the 50 year old car KITS are the badly built - or more accurately badly engineered - things in his statement...
 

OK...I'll stretch the point and concede you could read it either way, but again, not ALL 50-year-old car kits are "badly engineered". Granted, some of the best-detailed kits out there, like the vintage Revell stuff, are referred to as "fiddly" and hard to build, when in fact it's a lack of skill and patience on the part of the builders that keep them from turning out great models.

Yeah, I know, a certain segment wants zero effort in a hobby that's supposed to be relaxing...whatever that means...and seem to want everything done for them. So why not just buy a finished diecast? Or a pre-painted snapper?

And frankly, I just really get sick of hearing that everything old is crapp and everything new is wonderful.

It just isn't true. There's plenty of poorly engineered new cars and plenty of poorly engineered old cars. And there are poorly engineered and scaled models on both ends of the timeline as well.

There's also design and engineering excellence on both ends, real and in scale.

There are kits (and real cars) that get some aspects done brilliantly while making a dog's breakfast out of others.

But if things keep going the way a large part of the populace seem to be pushing, in 20 years, I just don't see anybody building models of Uber-esque self-driving silent soulless transportation modules, any more than we see people building models of refrigerators and home air-conditioners today.

Anyone who denies that America's love affair with the car is dying just isn't paying attention to reality...or refusing to accept it.

Here's a parting thought: this is America, the land of limitless opportunity. No matter what segment tries to deny it, it still is, and that's one reason why so many people are trying to come here. There is nothing, repeat NOTHING, to stop anyone who's really concerned about the future of the hobby from starting a company and showing everybody how it should be done.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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4 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

OK...I'll stretch the point and concede you could read it either way, but again, not ALL 50-year-old car kits are "badly engineered". Granted, some of the best-detailed kits out there, like the vintage Revell stuff, are referred to as "fiddly" and hard to build, when in fact it's a lack of skill and patience on the part of the builders that keep them from turning out great models.

Yeah, I know, a certain segment wants zero effort in a hobby that's supposed to be relaxing...whatever that means...and seem to want everything done for them. So why not just buy a finished diecast? Or a pre-painted snapper?

Frankly, I just really get sick of hearing that everything old is crapp and everything new is wonderful.

It just isn't true. There's plenty of poorly engineered new cars and plenty of poorly engineered old cars. And there are poorly engineered and scaled models on both ends of the timeline as well.

There's also design and engineering excellence on both ends, real and in scale.

And there are kits (and real cars) that get some aspects done brilliantly while making a dog's breakfast out of others.

But if things keep going the way a large part of the populace seem to be pushing, in 20 years, I just don't see anybody building models of Uber-esque self-driving silent soulless transportation modules, any more than we see people building models of refrigerators and home air-conditioners today.

Anyone who denies that America's love affair with the car is dying just isn't paying attention to reality.

No. Not all of them. I'll happily concede - using my own preference for classic sports cars as an example - that Revell's Austin Healey 100-6, Jaguar XK-E, and Porsche 356 are all lovely builds with truly impressive scale fidelity for their era,  that the IMC Indy cars and Sports Racers remain truly worthwhile builds, and that even AMT's run of Indy cars in the mid 70's are quite good despite some cost-cutting measures. Even the Aurora/Monogram sports cars with the exceptions of the Ferrari 250GTO and Chaparral 2 make for good representations of their subject matter. 

But I've invested a lot of time reading reviews, purchasing kits, and refining the abilities to build even "tricky" kits. I know what I'm getting into on the car side of things because I know that it's going to be slim options and frequent excursions into archaic kit types to build what I want to build in cars. 

In other spheres of the hobby, a subject is often kitted by several companies with the exceptions of truly obscure material, leaving builders options for everything from highly detailed "no expense spared" builds out of the box to toss-it-together-in-an-evening inexpensive kits for the casual builder. Just this past year, there have been 4 new kits of the P51-D Mustang in 1/48th scale (Meng, Modelsvit, Airfix, Eduard) covering this broad spectrum so that there's a Mustang for every builder. The most recent example of this phenomenon I can think of in the car world is the Ferrari Enzo. 

 

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Interesting thread, this. Kinda inspiring too.

As a result, I've been kinda thinking about some recent vehicles I'd like to have in the stash. The Toyota FJ came to mind, and low and behold, Fujimi makes one...and it's on the way to my hot little hands.

Here's one I really love to see both Toyota and some model company bring to reality; I'd stand in line. Probably a snowball's chance, too.

Toyota-Supra-4x4-2020.jpg.5702fc524ccb2389b1c52836b9b9373c.jpg

 

 

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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10 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

By whose definition? I was with you right up to that point. I have 50 year old cars that will be running when this generation of tin-box, overcomplicated, in many cases poorly-thought-out, nightmare-to-service appliances is unrepairable without being re-engineered, because the electronics and software won't be supported anywhere on the planet.

The new stuff works great until it doesn't. When it's out of warranty, good luck. And yes, I'm in the business.

I'm a car guy. I like 50-80 yo cars, amongst others. But you're in biz, so it's easy to keep old cars running. If you're not, it isn't. Certainly not with the poor knowledge of cars in general, even with my friends. How many current young car guys have seen feeler gauges, or carbs for that matter? LOL. Tinbox. Cheap Hondas and Toyotas run forever now. They rarely need fixing. Truly a get-off-my lawn rant, and I respect your efforts. New cars can be boring, heavy, and ugly. But the market won't allow bad cars for long. See Fiat, Alfa (sad, stupid effort). 

Safety wise, cars far better. Poorly engineered? Tin-box? Now? Agree hard to service in many cases, takes longer to get to the plugs than change them. There's a huge secondary electronics market for modern cars. Great stock to own. 

50-60yo kits are great. Best available then, and still look like intended car. But totally miss new target market. Need Gti, Focus RS, new Shelby, goofy but fast Hyundai N, stuff you see beyond the 85th 69 Camaro (I like them, just not thrilled by another red Camaro). 

Relax, I was brought up on your side. Acceptance and tolerance will keep hobby going. But as your most recent Supra 4x4 shows, that's the stuff that'd sell. #notgonnahappen #wheresmydiscountcoupon #videogamesareevil #SMH

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3 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Frankly, I just really get sick of hearing that everything old is crapp and everything new is wonderful.

That's okay, I get tired the continuous drone that everything new is crapp, and everything old is wonderful.

Yes, there were some nice kits back then, and I've enthused more than a few times about the quality of the Jo-han classic kits,  but I'll take I'll take AMT's 2000 version of the '66 Riviera over their '66 release any day of the week.  Revell's '40 Ford simply blows the AMT kit out of the water, especially if you're looking for a source of vintage running gear.   Even Lindberg managed to produce some gems around the turn of the century.   Sure, we have fond memories of the "good old days" but progress does happen.

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Anyone who denies that America's love affair with the car is dying just isn't paying attention to reality.

Believe me, I have been paying attention.  I was paying back during the days of the first Energy Crisis, and before, when learned men were solemnly pronouncing the end of America's love affair with the automobile.    People have been saying it's been dying for over 50 years, much like how the Jehovah's Witnesses have been saying that we are the last generation.  You'll forgive me if I take both those pronouncements with just the tiniest grain of salt.

Soulless transportation modules has been the auto industry's bread and butter pretty much since day one,  and that's fine.  Most people want a tool, not a toy.  Thankfully, every so often you get these flashes of genius, or madness, and that's what makes things interesting.  That we saw so many plain vanilla cars kitted in the past had more to do with Detroit's demands than the merits of the subject or the demands of the modeling market, but exciting cars still get made.   Look at all the chatter over the new Corvette.

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Here's one I really love to see both Toyota and some model company bring to reality; I'd stand in line. Probably a snowball's chance, too.

Toyota-Supra-4x4-2020.jpg.5702fc524ccb2389b1c52836b9b9373c.jpg

 

 

I want one too.

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I don't see the scale model building hobby dying, but it has changed a lot since the 1960's. If you view the hobby from a purely car modelling perspective it has shrunk dramatically. In general there are a lot of new companies producing a very wide range of subjects, however not many are automotive subjects and some like the ICM 1/24 scale kits ate double the cost of a Revell or AMT. . Most modern cars are just appliances to get you from A to B and are just plain boring. Sure the new supercar segment is cool but a 1960s Ferrari is a lot cooler. (OK subjective opinion here!)

The range of military vehicle kits available in 1/35 is astounding, and there are at least a half dozen or so new brands producing them. Most are 'adult priced' and are very complex - not beginner stuff. The aircraft segment has been similarly well stocked with new subjects and manufacturers.

I think the science fiction genre is where most or the newer builders end up - both my grand kids have built Revell and now Bandai Star Wars kits - and had a blast doing it. One is 9 and the other 11 and they enjoyed the few they have built. Our local hobby store - yes we are lucky and still have one - sells a lot of Gundam, which has surprised the owner who really did not expect that. His sci - fi section has increased in size and at the expense of the automotive section.

I think the hobby is quite healthy, especially if the cottage industries and aftermarket segment is included.

However I build all kinds of things - I found that is the secret to keep my interest in building from stagnating. If you are in a slump try something new or different. It's amazing what is available out there..

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Brian I'm with you on '60s sports cars, and I'd still like to see someone release a Cheetah kit.  Mind you, I think those classics from the '30s are pretty sweet too, and the cars from the dawn of the automobile age have their own funky charm.   That said, those new Aston Martins look pretty nice.

I like some of the Japanese scifi kits.  I'm not always familiar with the series they come from, but some of the designs are really cool.    I have this one the build pile right now.

yamato-2520-6d907fa4-dc4a-47a4-a020-fa8d

The hobby is changing, and not all of the change is bad.

Edited by Richard Bartrop
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22 minutes ago, BrianC said:

I don't see the scale model building hobby dying, but it has changed a lot since the 1960's. If you view the hobby from a purely car modelling perspective it has shrunk dramatically. In general there are a lot of new companies producing a very wide range of subjects, however not many are automotive subjects and some like the ICM 1/24 scale kits ate double the cost of a Revell or AMT. . Most modern cars are just appliances to get you from A to B and are just plain boring. 

The range of military vehicle kits available in 1/35 is astounding, and there are at least a half dozen or so new brands producing them. Most are 'adult priced' and are very complex - not beginner stuff. The aircraft segment has been similarly well stocked with new subjects and manufacturers.

 

Ok!! Just started into cars after a long time building 1/32 winged things. I have to say i was suprised by what wasn't being molded. Modern pick-ups, Camaros, Mustangs, Jeeps, some of the japanese stuff, exoticars, porches, BMWs....I'm also suprised  by the kits themselves. "Warning!! My own opinion ahead!!" I understand it has to do with price and what they will charge, but the molding and detail of the parts isn't that great. I am doing an unfair comparison to what is available in the aircraft and armor world. "Adult prices" has everything to do with this, but the mold quality and detail available is astounding in these kits. Tamiyas P-51, Corsair, Mosquito or the detail and molds in the recent Airfix 1/24 kits will blow you away. I wish car kits were like this, again i understand price points, but there must be other car builders that would be willing to pay adult prices for a great molded and detailed kit.

Don

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15 minutes ago, Richard Bartrop said:

Brian I'm with you on '60s sports cars, and I'd still like to see someone release a Cheetah kit.  Mind you, I think those classics from the '30s are pretty sweet too, and the cars from the dawn of the automobile age have their own funky charm.   That said, those new Aston Martins look pretty nice.

I like some of the Japanese scifi kits.  I'm not always familiar with the series they come from, but some of the designs are really cool.    I have this one the build pile right now.

yamato-2520-6d907fa4-dc4a-47a4-a020-fa8d

The hobby is changing, and not all of the change is bad.

It's funny, last week at the hobby shop, i picked up and put this kit down 4-5 times. I guess sooner or later it's coming home with me.

Don

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2 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

OK...I'll stretch the point and concede you could read it either way, but again, not ALL 50-year-old car kits are "badly engineered". Granted, some of the best-detailed kits out there, like the vintage Revell stuff, are referred to as "fiddly" and hard to build, when in fact it's a lack of skill and patience on the part of the builders that keep them from turning out great models.

Yeah, I know, a certain segment wants zero effort in a hobby that's supposed to be relaxing...whatever that means...and seem to want everything done for them. So why not just buy a finished diecast? Or a pre-painted snapper?

And frankly, I just really get sick of hearing that everything old is crapp and everything new is wonderful.

It just isn't true. There's plenty of poorly engineered new cars and plenty of poorly engineered old cars. And there are poorly engineered and scaled models on both ends of the timeline as well.

There's also design and engineering excellence on both ends, real and in scale.

There are kits (and real cars) that get some aspects done brilliantly while making a dog's breakfast out of others.

But if things keep going the way a large part of the populace seem to be pushing, in 20 years, I just don't see anybody building models of Uber-esque self-driving silent soulless transportation modules, any more than we see people building models of refrigerators and home air-conditioners today.

Anyone who denies that America's love affair with the car is dying just isn't paying attention to reality...or refusing to accept it.

Here's a parting thought: this is America, the land of limitless opportunity. No matter what segment tries to deny it, it still is, and that's one reason why so many people are trying to come here. There is nothing, repeat NOTHING, to stop anyone who's really concerned about the future of the hobby from starting a company and showing everybody how it should be done.

Just having a little fun here about building refrigerators or AC's

Air Conditioner Outdoor Unit B (Plastic model) Item picture1

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13 minutes ago, dmthamade said:

... "Adult prices" has everything to do with this, but the mold quality and detail available is astounding in these kits. Tamiyas P-51, Corsair, Mosquito or the detail and molds in the recent Airfix 1/24 kits will blow you away. I wish car kits were like this, again i understand price points, but there must be other car builders that would be willing to pay adult prices for a great molded and detailed kit...

Yeah, that's kinda the point I was making when I mentioned that, for the most part, we don't see (on this board) those modelers. There are multi-hundred dollar 1/24 kits of very interesting subjects, beautifully done. People wish for a Cheetah kit. Well, I have a real beauty, but it's not cheap, and the number of people who even know what it is is, apparently, too small to justify ever tooling one for injection-molded styrene.

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