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ratherbefishin

Rattle can suggestions

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Right now I’m limited to using rattle cans.  Can someone recommend an acrylic spray can manufacturer?  Also, some newbie questions if you don’t mind;

-do I use a clear coat on all acrylic painted parts or just the bodies?

-I’m using craft acrylics on engine parts, interiors and chassis do I clear coat these as well?

-will using a matte finish clear dull coat work to replicate faded, weathered paint?  Not rust, necessarily, but just to show age, weathering and avoiding the show room shine.

-in order to limit the thickness from rattle paints, are several mist coats preferred?  Do I sand after each mist coat or just after full coverage?

-I am warming the can before each application and have to do my painting outside (Florida), I just hate the thick build up since I cannot thin the paint.

I would appreciate any other pointers you can give me and I appreciate your patience.

Thznk you,
Curt

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I use Dupli-color colors and clears for the body, I have used craft paint on one kit and cleared it with Dupli-color and it turned out great. You could also consider using pledge (future) for clearing over the craft paints there is a long thread here about the product read it there are thousands of uses for it. I have used the craft paint on interiors often and when I do I clear it with a water based satin finish clear for the craft paint and I think it comes out well. I'm not as detailed as some as the guys here so I'm sure they can add a lot of info for you.

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You can also consider trying Testors clear lacquer in a rattle can.

It's very mild and you can spray it over most any paint without issue.

 

Steve

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I've never used acrylic rattle cans but there are supposed to be some decent ones around. My experience with acrylics in general on plastic is you really need to prime if you want good adhesion . My experience is you should really prime anyway, even with enamels and lacquers, my scratch tests have concluded they bond better to plastic with primer under them but acrylics are especially prone to chipping or even wearing off when applied directly to plastic.

As to any rattle can painting ( I used to rattle can exclusively decades ago and even won a couple second and third place contest wins using them), it really helps to heat the can up up in fairly hot water before application. You want to feel the can very comfortably warm after shaking, heat shake, heat shake till it remains warm after shaking. You will see a marked improvement in how the paint exists the can and also lays down on the model surface.

Clear flat or satin will help some to gain a used look but still looks too clean for some areas of a model car, even better is applying simple washes. You can make them or buy them and on things like engines and firewalls you can simply brush them on and wipe back or wick away to the desired level of use you want to see. It makes a striking difference even in a failrly new looking build, because very few real cars have 0 grime/dust etc... That said, in my personal case, I like to put down a clear satin lacquer coat first. I often use Model Master metalizer clear coat, which is a very thin lacquer coat and unbuffed it will come out satin. I use water soluble oil stains over that for my wash. I've also used the stains though, directly over craft paints and gained a much more realistic and more 3d look.  Sounds like a lot of steps and a lot to learn but it's really not difficult.

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If there is a reason for using acrylic spray paints, there is one brand I am familiar with. Liquitex. I use their tube paint with my air brush and get great results. They are pricey though. Mail order seems to be about the only way to purchase them. Walmart has them as well as others. 

https://www.walmart.com/browse/home-improvement/spray-paint/liquitex/1072864_1067617_1067620_1091547/YnJhbmQ6TGlxdWl0ZXgie

 

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All I used is rattle cans and IMO, you can't beat Tamiya sprays. I've tried others like Dupli Color, Krylon etc. and they just don't compare. I still use the other brands occasionally. But, when I want great results, I use Tamiya.

For clear, I use their TS-13. Usually three coats over paint. I only use it on bodies.

For a dull finish, I use Testors Dull Cote.

It is best to do mist coats. You don't necessarily have to sand between coats. I usually spray a coat, wait ten minutes, spray another, wait ten more and spray a good wet (heavier) coat. Allow it to dry a day, lightly sand with 1000 grit and spray three coats of clear in the same method. I will sometimes sand between the second and third coat if I have a lot of orange peel. But, I rarely have to do that.

Also, primer is a must! Use a good primer on the body like Tamiya or Dupli Color. The cheap stuff on everything else.

 

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Be careful with the term "acrylic". Tamiya spray paints are acrylic - acrylic lacquer. And they are my favorite spray paint. They don' t necessarily need primer under them. It depends on the plastic and how heavy the first coat goes on. (Lacquer can craze plastic.) Resin parts always need priming.

Most people mean water-based paint when they use the term acrylic. If you mean that, the only paint I've seen in spray cans is Valejo. I love Velejo paints for brush painting and airbrushing. However, I've only used their spray paint once. It was their gloss clear and it did not go well. It took weeks for the paint to cure and stop being tacky. Several hours in a food dehydrator did not help. I've had this happen once before with airbrushed Gunze aquious acrylic gloss clear. So one thing I would tell you is to stay away from water-based acrylic gloss clearcoats. Which means if you want to clear coat your model, you'll need to use enamel or lacquer paints.

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I am one of those that thought acrylic always meant water based, so I stand corrected.  I always prime all parts before painting and frankly, it’s been my experience that ALL paints adhere better over some primer.  Thanks for the help.

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On 12/19/2019 at 12:17 PM, Plowboy said:

All I used is rattle cans and IMO, you can't beat Tamiya sprays. I've tried others like Dupli Color, Krylon etc. and they just don't compare. I still use the other brands occasionally. But, when I want great results, I use Tamiya.

For clear, I use their TS-13. Usually three coats over paint. I only use it on bodies.

For a dull finish, I use Testors Dull Cote.

It is best to do mist coats. You don't necessarily have to sand between coats. I usually spray a coat, wait ten minutes, spray another, wait ten more and spray a good wet (heavier) coat. Allow it to dry a day, lightly sand with 1000 grit and spray three coats of clear in the same method. I will sometimes sand between the second and third coat if I have a lot of orange peel. But, I rarely have to do that.

Also, primer is a must! Use a good primer on the body like Tamiya or Dupli Color. The cheap stuff on everything else.

 

Roger, I tried your method of primer on everything and loved the results. Even on brush painted parts. Tamiya is the best paint but I do like one coat clear...

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I'm not much of a spray can guy, I like to decant...

You have already received alot of good info as far as the what's and the hows... 

Tamiya is great a stuff in a spray can!

Testors is great stuff in a can also, but the can and the nozzle and lack of pressure should be illegal to sell to people imo.... the paint itself is great though.

But, as far as needing a primer...

This is all my personal opinion that I've formed from my own experience ymmv.

A mechanical bond is required for all paint to adhere well.

That mechanism can be achieved in two basic ways.

In regards to styrene, paints using "strong" or "hot" or "fast" solvents such as certain lacquers or enamels reduced with Lacquer thinner will etch into the plastic chemically to some degree , thus creating a mechanical bond to the plastic.

Essentially it chemically sinks its teeth into the plastic... primer is usually unnecessary in this case (unless for body work or color reasons) as it is simply redundant and an added thickness that could be better spent on color or clear for polishing out later... as far as durability, if you are using a primer that's just as "hot" as your paint and not hotter, why would we expect its bond to the plastic to be any better than the color paint itself? After all primer is  just a more course paint.

As far as Acrylics and other paints with very mild (alcohol, mineral spirits) or even no solvents at all, the chemicals aren't present to etch and create the mechanism... in this case sanding and a primer or just one or the other is used to give the surface to be painted the "teeth" neccessary for the paint to adhere well. 

In a nut shell... strong solvents create their own "teeth" and the other stuff needs those teeth to be on the painting surface before application.

Man, I rambled... sorry.

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All  I can say is do as I have done and conduct your own scratch resistance tests with and without primer. Theories are wonderful, evidence is more reliable and sometimes surprising.  Additionally, some paint have dramatic changes in darkness when shot over white, various shades of grey or black and even more with different colors under them. I'll be done with the primer saga now, certainly there are more ways than one to approach this and I always do a mock up paint job first when dealing with new colors or paint brands and types, then I'm not surprised by some anomaly when painting a much more costly model.

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10 hours ago, LL3 Model Worx said:

In regards to styrene, paints using "strong" or "hot" or "fast" solvents such as certain lacquers or enamels reduced with Lacquer thinner will etch into the plastic chemically to some degree , thus creating a mechanical bond to the plastic.

Essentially it chemically sinks its teeth into the plastic... primer is usually unnecessary in this case (unless for body work or color reasons) as it is simply redundant and an added thickness that could be better spent on color or clear for polishing out later.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this.

 

Yes, "hot" lacquers will "etch" into the plastic.

So much so in many cases, that it will craze the plastic and irreversibly destroy it, especially with the cheap, thin plastic used in today's kits.

Been there with this many times over the years.

I understand that there are techniques involved where this is a possibility, but we should be careful about how we state things.

When a novice builder asks for our help, we need to be certain that we are not giving them advice that might be detrimental to the beginning of their modeling career.

Nobody wants a mess their first time out.

 

For the sake of this argument, I don't consider Testors or Tamiya lacquer paints "hot".

Yes they are considered lacquers, but they are formulated for plastic models and are extremely mild.

The issue arises with true automotive type lacquer paints like Duplicolor, or some of the aftermarket air brush lacquers.

A fairly heavy shot of Duplicolor over bare plastic is just as likely to ruin the body as not.

 

 

In my experience, primer is necessary for hot lacquers precisely because they can etch, or craze the plastic.

Yes, bond is a consideration, but it is secondary to the chemical reaction that is likely to occur between the paint and plastic.

 

I don't want to take any swipes at Leroy personally, but I felt that I had to speak on this, especially due to the fact that Curt is just starting out and we want to be certain that he is getting very sound and simple advice.

 

Sorry Leroy.

I'm not trying to pick a fight!

Just offering an alternative view. B)

 

 

 

Steve

 

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I am a fellow "Rattle can" modeler. In spite of building off and on for 50 years I am still a painting rookie. I have always sprayed Testors straight onto the plastic. I don't mind removing flashing but I have no patience for sanding and have basically never done putty. Doing a mist coat is a 50-50 proposition. There will be differing opinions on this but in my experience, it contributes to orange peel. I have often sprit and sprayed to 100% coverage on the first and often only coat. Have I had issues? Yes, transparent paints do not like this method. The paint will run away from any ridges leaving them the plastic color. With solid paints I often get away with it. Humidity is a key factor. If you want gloss, spray when the humidity is 40% or below. Higher humidity will make your glossy finish coat "blush" rendering it with a matte finish. Orange peel is present on most of my models due to spraying mostly enamels. I live with it. Though brushed on Future (acrylic) after decals and BMF but before the window glass will definitely improve the gloss. I have a bunch of Tamiya paints but have not sprayed very much of it. When hobby paints jumped way up in price, the economics of alternate sources of paints drove me to the Krylon and Duplicolor paints as you get much more for your money. Stay away from the Krylon "Fusion" paints. They are hot solvents and if you are not please with the results, the plastic will never be the same. If I plan on spraying a transparent color, It really needs a base coat. White paint or primer or sometimes metallic silver will improve your chances of a bright color. One of my failures is Testors Plum Crazy Purple. No primer, grey plastic and way too many coats made for a very dark purple result. NOT the beautiful medium metallic purple I was hoping for. Another near miss was Medium metallic red Duplicolor over Krylon white primer. The primer stuck to the plastic but the paint is marginally adhered to the primer. The color and finish came out beautiful but was very easily chipped off during final assembly. The only thing that saved it was multiple coats of Future. Now that I finally have a paint booth, I will eventually step up to getting an airbrush because the results the skilled modellers are getting is where I want to be.

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2 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this.

 

Yes, "hot" lacquers will "etch" into the plastic.

So much so in many cases, that it will craze the plastic and irreversibly destroy it, especially with the cheap, thin plastic used in today's kits.

Been there with this many times over the years.

I understand that there are techniques involved where this is a possibility, but we should be careful about how we state things.

When a novice builder asks for our help, we need to be certain that we are not giving them advice that might be detrimental to the beginning of their modeling career.

Nobody wants a mess their first time out.

 

For the sake of this argument, I don't consider Testors or Tamiya lacquer paints "hot".

Yes they are considered lacquers, but they are formulated for plastic models and are extremely mild.

The issue arises with true automotive type lacquer paints like Duplicolor, or some of the aftermarket air brush lacquers.

A fairly heavy shot of Duplicolor over bare plastic is just as likely to ruin the body as not.

 

 

In my experience, primer is necessary for hot lacquers precisely because they can etch, or craze the plastic.

Yes, bond is a consideration, but it is secondary to the chemical reaction that is likely to occur between the paint and plastic.

 

I don't want to take any swipes at Leroy personally, but I felt that I had to speak on this, especially due to the fact that Curt is just starting out and we want to be certain that he is getting very sound and simple advice.

 

Sorry Leroy.

I'm not trying to pick a fight!

Just offering an alternative view. B)

 

 

 

Steve

 

No problem Steve... that's why I stated at the beginning of my post that it was just my opinion and that individual mielage may vary.

Heck theres more opinions out there than products to apply them with... so why would I be upset if someone disagrees?

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2 hours ago, LL3 Model Worx said:

No problem Steve... that's why I stated at the beginning of my post that it was just my opinion and that individual mielage may vary.

Heck theres more opinions out there than products to apply them with... so why would I be upset if someone disagrees?

Thanks Leroy.

It's nice to find that there are still reasonable people who can deal with differing opinions without taking it as some sort of personal attack.

 

 

 

Steve

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20 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Thanks Leroy.

It's nice to find that there are still reasonable people who can deal with differing opinions without taking it as some sort of personal attack.

 

 

 

Steve

Thanks Steve.

Life is too short to sweat the little stuff...lol

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I appreciate ALL the advice,folks. I’ve primed two bodies in Rustoleum gray , using Tamiya over one and Krylon Colormaster on the second.  The Tamiya has some orange peel issues (my fault) but was easily dealt with.  The Krylon just seemed so thick, it was hard for me to do mist coats and ultimately the paint obscured detail.  The only reason I chose Krylon was the color.

in the future I thinks I’ll stick with Tamiya for bodies and I need to find a less grainy primer.  I did find that a light sanding really smoothed out the Rustoleum primer but I don’t know if that makes the primer less effective?

Thanks again for the help, I having a ball with this rediscovered hobby!

Curt

 

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2 hours ago, ratherbefishin said:

I appreciate ALL the advice,folks. I’ve primed two bodies in Rustoleum gray , using Tamiya over one and Krylon Colormaster on the second.  The Tamiya has some orange peel issues (my fault) but was easily dealt with.  The Krylon just seemed so thick, it was hard for me to do mist coats and ultimately the paint obscured detail.  The only reason I chose Krylon was the color.

in the future I thinks I’ll stick with Tamiya for bodies and I need to find a less grainy primer.  I did find that a light sanding really smoothed out the Rustoleum primer but I don’t know if that makes the primer less effective?

Thanks again for the help, I having a ball with this rediscovered hobby!

Curt

 

"Fine" primers are going to give you a much better result.

Try some Duplicolor primer in the color of your choosing.

I now use a lot of Duplicolor "Primer Sealer" and I love it!

 

Or Tamiya's primers are very fine as well.

I don't use Tamiya primers because they are far too expensive for my taste and I don't care for the spray nozzles, but the primer itself is good.

 

Either of these will likely give you a smoother finish than Rustoleum.

 

My guess is that the Rustoleum primer that you're using is an enamel?

My experience is that enamel primers are not nearly as good as lacquer primers.

 

 

Steve

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Steve, it doesn’t say specifically that it is enamel primer, but it did leave a very grainy finish.  I did have a better result with the 2x flat red primer.  I will try the Duplicolor too.  Thanks.

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I think most primers are more like lacquers than enamels.  They dry fast (and are ready to be sanded), where enamels take a while to set and fully harden.

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