New From Round2/AMT 2020

[Bills72sj]

1 hour ago, keyser said:

The focus is on the money, the market. TV/sci-fi. Largest seller ever is the Hazzard Charger, suspect the Monkeemobile still sells, the Smokey and the Bandit T/A, KITT. But They started Star Trek stuff in 74 or so. Owned the market and it's done nothing but explode. Not even Japanese anticipated it. R-M is in it too. But  even Space 1999 stuff sells like mad from TV series a few decades ago

Model companies have financial issues first. Hard to deal with fickle market. But Star Wars, Star Trek, all transcend generations. And they pay up. 

It's a business. To make money. 

You pretty much nailed it. It is a BUSINESS. I love to watch sci-fi but do not build any. I am a 50's to 70's car guy. I'll take what I can get at a reasonable price.

[niteowl7710]

Well take a gander at the MSRP of the average Round2 car kit with the price of the new SciFi kit and tell me who's willing to spend more money to get new tool kits with a high level of detail and who's demanding they make a '68 Coronet but not have it cost more than $5 in the process. Round2's FB, IG, YT pages are all people demanding old kits, or accusing them of ripping them off with how much kits cost. Sooooo...

[Luc Janssens]

What

1 hour ago, niteowl7710 said:

Well take a gander at the MSRP of the average Round2 car kit with the price of the new SciFi kit and tell me who's willing to spend more money to get new tool kits with a high level of detail and who's demanding they make a '68 Coronet but not have it cost more than $5 in the process. Round2's FB, IG, YT pages are all people demanding old kits, or accusing them of ripping them off with how much kits cost. Sooooo...

What's the box-size of the Eagle II, and what would be the size and price of an 1/8th scale '79 Monogram Trans Am?  

all  apples and oranges,  now compare the prices of R2 car kits with those of Revell, the latter can tool up all new for less, (even Revell Germany)

 Also Round2 is entering Tamiya pricing in my neck of the woods, but where the quid pro quo? 

Newcomers like Belkits and Beemax can invest and sell car kits at a premium, so that tells me that automotive models will pay the price, as long as it's a subject they really want.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Luc Janssens

[niteowl7710]

That Eagle II is a version of that kit that was already released that has more detail added. The original version clocks in with a MSRP over just shy of $150. Meaning they sold enough $150 kits to justify offering an even more detailed one at $175.

Meanwhile any new tool automotive kit from a regular company(Revell, Moebius, Round2) has to have 3-5 variants baked in to be greenlighted in order to sell enough kits to amortize the tooling costs because of the artificial - MAH KiTs ShOulD CoSt WhaT tHey dId iN DaH 60s - price caps. Belkits models cost $52-65 depending on how you source one. Their customers are diehard rally/race car builders who are willing to subsidize their subject matter. But by and large are car modelers as a whole? 

Edited February 2, 2020 by niteowl7710

[keyser]

I LOL'd at that price cap comment. 

Let's see- yield per tool at MSRP of OMG $32, or MSRP $150-175. Duh.

THAT's why they need 3+ variants for car tool, profit is a fraction of the Sci-Fi/TV/Movie stuff. 

Prices crush even high end resins and military stuff. I'd expect not a lot of 40% coupons used on the Sci-fi stuff either. 

Few of the people seem to buy the existing resin of automotive kits. OK. Wait. and wait. and rant. #notgonnahappen. 

[Luc Janssens]

Again apples and oranges

• Are alternative versions possible of one spaceship/craft?
• Are there old tools available of certain spaceships/crafts?
• What’s the price setting of the competition?

20 years ago, for automotive kit manufacturers, the money came in by the truck loads, due to the buying power of big outlets such as Walmart, so alternative versions were not really needed (but often a 2nd was done anyway) as the sheer volume kept MSRP low.

Since then a few events happened, all but one mayor retailer (a craft store) kicked out the model companies, due to changing interests of their clientele (read ROI on their shelf space)

Lindberg under the leadership of a shady character, blew out their entire inventory (shooting plastic though every tool that had) flooding the market with mediocre products, which sat on the shelves unsold hurting their competitors cuz it sent a message through retail and distribution channels, that model kits don’t sell, consumer trust got a blow too, cuz the bulk of it was nicely wrapped junk (I'm being polite)

Also the remains of once proud companies Amt & Mpc (owned by Tommy), were sold to a guy who’s family made it fortune selling cat litter, lets call him tool collector, cuz later he bought Lindberg lock stock and barrel too.

Anyway they started re-releasing kits from old tooling, sometimes un- the other changed by restoring or adding parts, so their price-setting is made-up by payroll, production, licensing, minimal re- or added tooling, transportation, warehousing, loan costs and profit margin.

The competition like Revell and Moebius have to be in that same price bracket, to not price themselves out of the market, so they get creative by designing kits with multiple siblings, which is good business sense IMHO, the lack of this kind thinking (back in the day by Ertl management) is what lead to the problems R2 faces with their Camaro retool

So my statement that Round-2 is by choice more sci-fi oriented then automotive, still stands.

?

But as always open to other opinions, that is the only way we learn to understand each other better.

 

Luc

Edited February 3, 2020 by Luc Janssens

[Tom Geiger]

5 hours ago, Luc Janssens said:

Also the remains of once proud companies Amt & Mpc (owned by Tommy), were sold to a guy who’s family made it fortune selling cat litter, lets call him tool collector, cuz later he bought Lindberg lock stock and barrel too.

Anyway they started re-releasing kits from old tooling, sometimes un- the other changed by restoring or adding parts, so their price-setting is made-up by payroll, production, licensing, minimal re- or added tooling, transportation, warehousing loan costs and profit margin.

Here's the big misconception.  Just because the tooling is old doesn't mean it's paid for.   Round 2 bought it all not that long ago.  No doubt there is debt service against that purchase.  Thus, that tooling still has a cost associated with it.  They have to work those assets so that they earn their keep. 

[Dave Darby]

3 hours ago, Tom Geiger said:

Here's the big misconception.  Just because the tooling is old doesn't mean it's paid for.   Round 2 bought it all not that long ago.  No doubt there is debt service against that purchase.  Thus, that tooling still has a cost associated with it.  They have to work those assets so that they earn their keep. 

Agreed.  Only thing is, I think we have arrived at the point where the increased MSRP is going to cost sales. I know It started hitting my budget when they went up to 29.99. I dont begrudge them that, and I still buy the kits, but I can't in the same numbers I used to. That potential loss in sales may be reflected in Hobby Lobby's reduction of shelf space for model car kits, too.

[Chris in Berwyn]

I used to pick up kits that I might have a plan for 10 or 15 years ago as the price was low enough that if I didn’t build it, so be it.  Now at $30 per kit, My purchase are way down.  The only time I buy something now that I don’t have a plan for if it’s $9.99 at Ollies.  

 

[Luc Janssens]

6 hours ago, Tom Geiger said:

Here's the big misconception.  Just because the tooling is old doesn't mean it's paid for.   Round 2 bought it all not that long ago.  No doubt there is debt service against that purchase.  Thus, that tooling still has a cost associated with it.  They have to work those assets so that they earn their keep. 

That why I included loan costs, (paying off the loan for buying the tooling from Tommy)  Tom.

Oh I see I forgot a comma between warehousing and loan costs, lemme fix that...

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Luc Janssens

[tim boyd]

Lots of good info in this thread; one thing I have learned is that among business professionals in the hobby industry, Round 2 owner Tom Lowe is (and has been, for about 25 years now) highly regarded for his expertise in identifying subjects and negotiating licensing agreements that can be monetized through the sale of kits (auto, sci fi, et al).   While he may have come from a family with financial assets, it appears to me that much of what he has accomplished over his career has been based on his own business savvy, intuition, and experience.   Most importantly, from a perspective of model kit buyers and builders, over the last 15 years or so he has assured the continuation of the product offerings of most of our domestic kit brands.  

************

One thing I learned myself in the mid 1970's, when I first started doing contract work for AMT and would meet semi-regularly with their management team, was that these companies are run with the goal to be profitable businesses above all else.  In recent years as i have done investigatory work on the business history of the auto hobby kit segment for various projects here, that point has come across time and time again, and helps mightily to explain why the model companies sometimes do things that seem way out of touch from the singular perspective of model car kit buyers and builders....

TIM   

Edited February 3, 2020 by tim boyd

[bobthehobbyguy]

Thanks Tim for your insight as an insider to the business.

[keyser]

Thanks again Tim. The dismissive and frankly rude comments about Mr. Lowe obviously uninformed.

General Mills, Tomy, others have failed. I'd agree it's a business, and not an easy one since demise of promo business. I wish him and RG partners the best.

[Luc Janssens]

1 hour ago, keyser said:

Thanks again Tim. The dismissive and frankly rude comments about Mr. Lowe obviously uninformed.

General Mills, Tomy, others have failed. I'd agree it's a business, and not an easy one since demise of promo business. I wish him and RG partners the best.

Guess time will tell, if he's the big savior of Amt/mpc or if he will bring the automotive hobby to an all new high...but believe me I very much would like to be proven wrong.

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Luc Janssens

[SfanGoch]

4 hours ago, tim boyd said:

While he may have come from a family with financial assets....

I know my cat is eternally grateful to Edmund Lowe. Possessing the wherewithal (and a true passion and interest in this segment of the hobby industry) to acquire these companies, ready to get things going from the start and invest in rehabilitating molds to release as many classic kits which modelers have been jonesing for years  is preferable to a guy/group with no working capital to invest into existing assets and will operate on the proverbial shoestring budget, essentially guaranteeing that one, if not more, divisions will get shortchanged in the long run. Granted, the Sci-fi portion of Round2's seems to get priority in developing new kits; but, that's where the money is. It'd be stupid business practice not to go with the dough.

[Tom Geiger]

5 hours ago, tim boyd said:

Lots of good info in this thread; one thing I have learned is that among business professionals in the hobby industry, Round 2 owner Tom Lowe is (and has been, for about 25 years now) highly regarded for his expertise in identifying subjects and negotiating licensing agreements that can be monetized through the sale of kits (auto, sci fi, et al).   While he may have come from a family with financial assets, it appears to me that much of what he has accomplished over his career has been based on his own business savvy, intuition, and experience.   Most importantly, from a perspective of model kit buyers and builders, over the last 15 years or so he has assured the continuation of the product offerings of most of our domestic kit brands.  

People seem to forget that 15-20 years ago Chicken Little was predicting the demise of our hobby.  Tomy had no idea what to do with AMT etal and Revell / Monogram was up for sale.  The big fear was that the owners would abandon the business and scrap the tooling.   We are fortunate that Hobbico stepped in and bought R/M, while Tom Lowe purchased all the AMT tooling.  

If indeed he hadn't stepped in there is no telling if that tooling would exist today.

[Plowboy]

1 hour ago, Tom Geiger said:

People seem to forget that 15-20 years ago Chicken Little was predicting the demise of our hobby.  Tomy had no idea what to do with AMT etal and Revell / Monogram was up for sale.  The big fear was that the owners would abandon the business and scrap the tooling.   We are fortunate that Hobbico stepped in and bought R/M, while Tom Lowe purchased all the AMT tooling.  

If indeed he hadn't stepped in there is no telling if that tooling would exist today.

Exactly! People seem to forget that Tom Lowe had to pay for all of the molds. Who wouldn't expect him to try to recoup his money for every mold bought? I think once he has more capital from his investment, we'll see more new kits. 

[Mike999]

23 hours ago, Chris in Berwyn said:

I used to pick up kits that I might have a plan for 10 or 15 years ago as the price was low enough that if I didn’t build it, so be it.  Now at $30 per kit, My purchase are way down. 

High prices for new kits affect me in another way, though the kit companies won't be happy about it.  With all the re-re-re-runs of so many kits I already have, I'm more likely to go to eBay and look for old stuff I don't have. I recently paid a little more than "new kit price" for an unbuilt Jo-Han '62 Chrysler (USA Oldies).  I'd much rather have that than most of the currently available car kits.

[Tye Brown]

On 2/3/2020 at 12:51 PM, Dave Darby said:

Agreed.  Only thing is, I think we have arrived at the point where the increased MSRP is going to cost sales. I know It started hitting my budget when they went up to 29.99. I dont begrudge them that, and I still buy the kits, but I can't in the same numbers I used to. That potential loss in sales may be reflected in Hobby Lobby's reduction of shelf space for model car kits, too.

BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH!!!!!!!!!!!!! $29.99 for a kit & your whinging about that lol...In Australia AMT, MPC, Revell kits all sell for around $60-$70AUD. You guys don't know how good you have it hahahaha

[Tye Brown]

16 hours ago, Tom Geiger said:

People seem to forget that 15-20 years ago Chicken Little was predicting the demise of our hobby.  Tomy had no idea what to do with AMT etal and Revell / Monogram was up for sale.  The big fear was that the owners would abandon the business and scrap the tooling.   We are fortunate that Hobbico stepped in and bought R/M, while Tom Lowe purchased all the AMT tooling.  

If indeed he hadn't stepped in there is no telling if that tooling would exist today.

Spot on Tom, well said

[slusher]

10 hours ago, Mike999 said:

High prices for new kits affect me in another way, though the kit companies won't be happy about it.  With all the re-re-re-runs of so many kits I already have, I'm more likely to go to eBay and look for old stuff I don't have. I recently paid a little more than "new kit price" for an unbuilt Jo-Han '62 Chrysler (USA Oldies).  I'd much rather have that than most of the currently available car kits.

I have to really want something and then hope Hobby Lobby has it..

[Dave Darby]

2 hours ago, Tye Brown said:

BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH!!!!!!!!!!!!! $29.99 for a kit & your whinging about that lol...In Australia AMT, MPC, Revell kits all sell for around $60-$70AUD. You guys don't know how good you have it hahahaha

Well we aren't in Australia. And just a couple of years ago, we were paying 24.99 per kit. Hobby Lobby has shrunk their model car selection by a third.  What would you attribute that to? I'm not complaining about the prices. I know the folks running RC2 are not greedy, and that it takes money to stay in business. I'm pointing out that they may may have reached a point where the neccessary MSRP may (or even HAS) cost them sales. I'm sure not done buying yet. When I can find them. Im sure it's even worse for you.

[stavanzer]

Indeed, Dave, you may be correct. I know that I've really scaled back my buying. I'm waiting now for the kits that have not been out for many years (like the awful '63 Impala) before I pick up "just another kit".

Round2 has gotten chintzy with tires in the last couple of years too. Kits that had 8 or even 10 tires, now come with 6, at most. Going back to the '63 Impala, it supposedly has a Drag version. but you get only 4 stock tires. No Such luck in the Kit. No Drag Slicks, No Dragster Engine parts. Just some fairly lame decals.  More like a Street Car in Drag, than a real Drag Racing Car. That kit has 2 options really. (well Okay, 3).

1. Wild Custom

2. Mild Custom

3. Stock.

It does have a ton of typical AMT 1960's car kit accessories. TV, Tools, ect.

[the other Mike S.]

I don't know why I should feel guilty using my 40% coupon at HL.  R2 and Revell are still making a profit even at those prices.  After all, they moved their operations over to China to reduce costs.  While I can appreciate the thicker cardboard boxes (thanks R2), molded in white plastic bodies and the beautiful pad printed tires, I do have a general price limit for a current 1/25th scale model kit. 

Like what was mentioned above, I typically buy what I like when the reissues come out.  At current prices, I can buy 2 (or even 3 at coupon prices) of my favorite subjects.  However, when they eventually get to $50 a kit, that will definitely curtail my purchases.  At that price, it will have to be something I really, really want.

The promo market suffered from the same price escalation.  Back when they were $20 or less, I used to buy multiple copies of each color.  When they started approaching the $30+ barrier, I restricted my choices down to one color each (or even just my favorite color) on the latest ones that retailed for $35+.

I'd hate to see model kit building become a rich man's hobby.  Right now, I can't afford the real 1:1 scale cars so I buy the models of my favorite automobiles.  If and when the time ever comes that the average model kit becomes too expensive, it will be time to find another hobby I guess.   

 

 

[Tom Geiger]

17 minutes ago, the other Mike S. said:

I don't know why I should feel guilty using my 40% coupon at HL.  R2 and Revell are still making a profit even at those prices.  After all, they moved their operations over to China to reduce costs.  While I can appreciate the thicker cardboard boxes (thanks R2), molded in white plastic bodies and the beautiful pad printed tires, I do have a general price limit for a current 1/25th scale model kit. 

When AMT originally went outside the USA to Mexico, quality suffered.  Molding was poor, wrong parts in boxes etc.  Then they moved manufacturing to China and things improved drastically even over the USA produced models.   Sprues individually in clear plastic bags, even things like convertible windshields reinforced with cardboard and taped to protect them.  Definitely a lot more labor involved, at lower wages.  

Still prices have crept up.  But can you imagine what the prices would be if production was still in the USA?