1/24 diecast scale variations

[Gramps46]

Here on the forum there has been continuing mention of the scale variations of diecast models.  I can only speak to I/24 scale as that is the only scale I collect, mostly Mint, Welly, Maisto, and BBurago.   I once thought the makers built to what I will call "box scale" meaning the model should look good in a window box.  I know there has been a lot of change in the diecast industry such as the demise of the Franklin and Danbury Mint brands,  transition of BBurago from Italy to China, the combined ownership and location of Maisto and BBurago and the realistic box labeling of Welly as 1/27 - 1/24 and the invasion of JADA into the market.  I have seen a big improvement in BBurago, fallen in love with $9.99 drug store Wellys and Maistos, and the abundance of Ferraris and Porsches.

I guess where I am going with this is what are the diecast product planners and designers thinking when they make product size decisions?  I doubt it is mathematics, maybe access to 1:1 examples other than photos, or is it the influences of the intended market, i.e. JADA movie and TV models.

I sure wish there was a diecast industry insider who could enlighten us or maybe some of you have seen or are aware of articles or threads you could share with us on other sites which address this topic.

Your comments and insights would be appreciated.

[Dave Van]

JADA is the big offender in labeling a model 1/24 and it's NOT! 

I bought a FnF  Pink Honda S2000 (online ) that was labeled 1/24 it was much closer to 1/18.....as big as a Dodge Charger!!!

Why???? Because the mass market 1/24 die cast are really just toys made for kids and no one cares.... 

[Snake45]

I believe in some cases, the scale is altered up or down from a model kit to avoid copying/copyright infringement accusations. Some examples I can think of: 

The Testor/Classic Metal Works '71 Hemi Cuda was obviously reverse-engineered from the Monogram 1/24 kit to 1/25. This might also be true of the Welly '70 Challenger and '72 Firebird. 

The undersized (1/26?) '65 Riviera from Maisto might have similarly been shrunk from the AMT kit. 

Going the other way, I have a diecast 1/24 '69 Firebird from somebody that's obviously blown up from the wretched old MPC 1/25 kit, as it copies all that kit's flaws exactly. 

[kilrathy10]

5 hours ago, Snake45 said:

I believe in some cases, the scale is altered up or down from a model kit to avoid copying/copyright infringement accusations. Some examples I can think of: 

The Testor/Classic Metal Works '71 Hemi Cuda was obviously reverse-engineered from the Monogram 1/24 kit to 1/25. This might also be true of the Welly '70 Challenger and '72 Firebird. 

The undersized (1/26?) '65 Riviera from Maisto might have similarly been shrunk from the AMT kit. 

Going the other way, I have a diecast 1/24 '69 Firebird from somebody that's obviously blown up from the wretched old MPC 1/25 kit, as it copies all that kit's flaws exactly. 

I'm in agreement with your theory of copyright infringement as being the chief culprit in this crazy situation... I can only think of that as being the cause... There is no way these companies could be that mathematically challenged...

[Dave Van]

Varying the scale does not avoid copyright laws.......'Trade Dress' covers that all a round. 

The scale issue is more that they want to fit the same size box for each car and increase or decrease the sacle to fill said box. 

[randyc]

Good topic.   I have a Welly?  motormax? 50 Chevy.  It looks okay.   Color and details are identical to the Mint car - dog dish caps, etc.   But the details are cheapened in that the hood ornament is 2d rendering of the bird on the Mint version.   It's flat.   The trim is molded in to the body, of course.   And the chassis is a one piece  deal typical of the cheap diecasts.  I don't have a 1/24 Mint car or a 1/25 plastic to compare it to for size.  This is one that was interesting but not enough to spend much time or money on - I have $8 including shipping in it.  Looks good on the shelf with some basic Snake Fu applied.   See photo.

My 55 Chrysler by Motormax? looks to be 1/25 length and maybe 1/24 width when compared to the Moebius 56.  Another photo below.  ONE of them is off a little? 57 Franklin Mint is otw.  

The CMW 71 Cuda was an abomination in my eyes.  The rear quarters were too tall?  Or something.   It just never looked right.  One of the few I actually took out of display.  Saved for parts though.

And I would agree that the cars are scaled to fit in ONE size box so they can use same size master shipping cases and so on.   We obviously will still buy them.  And I must say, that selling them on ebay, that size box that most use works well.  I can put them in a 10 x 6 x 4 with just a little bubble to pad and they are in the mail.   Mint car boxes are all over the place.  Have to find a box specific to each car.  

And I have a JADA dune buggy in Todd's stuff that says 1/24 on the bottom, but it much closer to 1/18.   It's much larger than a Chevelle that I had on hand to comparae to.  Jada is generally offensive to my eye with a few exceptions.  The trim and details are too far out unless you are collecting exapmples of more urban type cars?  LA?  IDK.  Not something you would ever see locally where I am.   I was able to fix the 63 Caddy to suit me though.  And I have the 58 that might be a 2020 project.   I want it in Lake Placid Blue or something close (matches my Strat in LPB).

[Snake45]

5 minutes ago, randyc said:

The CMW 71 Cuda was an abomination in my eyes.  The rear quarters were too tall?  Or something.   It just never looked right.  One of the few I actually took out of display.  Saved for parts though.

Hmmmm, I didn't notice that. Looks okay to me--looks just like a shrunken Monogram 1/24. Maybe the billboard stripes are making it look fat? The Monogram 1/24 Cuda isn't perfect, but it's hella closer than either of Revell's first two attempts at the '70. (I'm not 100% impressed with the third try, either.) 

Most or all of the CMWs seem to have been reverse-engineered from kits. Their '66 GTO and '69 Camaro are obvious ripoffs of the Revell 1/24 kits, and the '70 Chevelle also looks like a shrunken Monogram 1/24. I kinda like them anyway. 

 

[randyc]

I think I see what it is that bothers me and it's funny what each of perceive as horrible or unacceptable.   the rear quarters are too short.  And when looking at these two, everyone will feel something.  Be it ok or not okay or what.  But the rear is what stood out to me as grievous.  lol  And my Monogram is long gone from my collection to compare to.

BTW, I was fine with the DM 68 SS396 til you pointed out the roof and rear window openings.   Now I can't unsee that.  Same with flat top Novas.

[kilrathy10]

17 hours ago, Dave Van said:

Varying the scale does not avoid copyright laws.......'Trade Dress' covers that all a round. 

The scale issue is more that they want to fit the same size box for each car and increase or decrease the sacle to fill said box. 

AAAAAAHHHHH..... You're talking sense, Man... That makes perfect sense.... It all boils down to a much simpler explanation, then...

So the only reason 1/27 trucks exist is because of this simple thing? Not good... I can't stand that scale, as you can't display them with much of anything, but I can see it, now...

Still kinda iffy on Jada, though... Really weird...

[kilrathy10]

1 hour ago, randyc said:

I think I see what it is that bothers me and it's funny what each of perceive as horrible or unacceptable.   the rear quarters are too short.  And when looking at these two, everyone will feel something.  Be it ok or not okay or what.  But the rear is what stood out to me as grievous.  lol  And my Monogram is long gone from my collection to compare to.

BTW, I was fine with the DM 68 SS396 til you pointed out the roof and rear window openings.   Now I can't unsee that.  Same with flat top Novas.

Man, that is crazy.... If you have no point of reference, this car looks great... Then you look at the actual car and think, "What is going on?" It's all scrunched up...

Edited January 10, 2020 by kilrathy10

[Snake45]

2 hours ago, randyc said:

I think I see what it is that bothers me and it's funny what each of perceive as horrible or unacceptable.   the rear quarters are too short.  And when looking at these two, everyone will feel something.  Be it ok or not okay or what.  But the rear is what stood out to me as grievous.  lol  And my Monogram is long gone from my collection to compare to.

BTW, I was fine with the DM 68 SS396 til you pointed out the roof and rear window openings.   Now I can't unsee that.  Same with flat top Novas.

My gosh, you're right--that butt IS short! And I had TOTALLY missed that when I just Snake-Fued one! 

But it STILL looks better than the first two Revell efforts. 

Short-butt must be a diecast thing. And this would make three of them I've done with short butt this year, the other two being the Jada '69 Daytona and Jada '67 Impala.  

[Gramps46]

Having visited Monogram back in the Morton Grove era and being impressed with the size of the dies and injection molding machines I got to wondering if the available mold insert size had anything to do with the size of the model.  For instance a long wheel base Cadillac or pick up truck would be limited to a smaller scale than a shorter 2 door.   We have certainly  seen that in the Welly line where they are now open about the scale variations on their packaging.  

Changing the subject a bit,  I can accept the fact that there is a difference between collectibles and toys.  The Mint cars along with Automodello and a few other brands are collectibles where as the less expensive (I dislike the term cheap) brands are more toy like.  BBurago even labels some of theirs as Race and Play but I will be darned if I am getting down on the floor and play with my Ferraris.  I still wish I had surveillance of the "toy" shelves in drug and big box stores and would be able to see what type (age) the customers are.

[kilrathy10]

1 hour ago, Snake45 said:

My gosh, you're right--that butt IS short! And I had TOTALLY missed that when I just Snake-Fued one! 

But it STILL looks better than the first two Revell efforts. 

Short-butt must be a diecast thing. And this would make three of them I've done with short butt this year, the other two being the Jada '69 Daytona and Jada '67 Impala.  

It's so odd that the die cast companies count on most of us not to notice, and for the most part, we don't.... ?

[kilrathy10]

9 minutes ago, Gramps46 said:

Having visited Monogram back in the Morton Grove era and being impressed with the size of the dies and injection molding machines I got to wondering if the available mold insert size had anything to do with the size of the model.  For instance a long wheel base Cadillac or pick up truck would be limited to a smaller scale than a shorter 2 door.   We have certainly  seen that in the Welly line where they are now open about the scale variations on their packaging.  

Changing the subject a bit,  I can accept the fact that there is a difference between collectibles and toys.  The Mint cars along with Automodello and a few other brands are collectibles where as the less expensive (I dislike the term cheap) brands are more toy like.  BBurago even labels some of theirs as Race and Play but I will be darned if I am getting down on the floor and play with my Ferraris.  I still wish I had surveillance of the "toy" shelves in drug and big box stores and would be able to see what type (age) the customers are.

 

                                                                     For what ever reason, I had to edit this.... My quote is as follows:

 

You're so right... I know that they are, for the most part, toys, but I remember, even as a little tike, I was put off by Hot Wheels issues where the wheels stuck out way further than the Matchbox offerings... Matchbox cars seemed more realistic than Hot Wheels, and as much as I complain about the scales, I most certainly, can't complain about the price... Those BBurago's are pretty awesome for the price...

I'd love to see who keeps screwing up the great cars CVS sells via camera surveillance, too... They're sold without the box on open shelving where the kids can get to them and "turn" them into "toys".... I don't know how many times they had something I would have bought had someone not broken the mirrors off....

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by kilrathy10

[randyc]

2 hours ago, Snake45 said:

My gosh, you're right--that butt IS short! And I had TOTALLY missed that when I just Snake-Fued one! 

But it STILL looks better than the first two Revell efforts. 

Short-butt must be a diecast thing. And this would make three of them I've done with short butt this year, the other two being the Jada '69 Daytona and Jada '67 Impala.  

Unless you're looking at the JADA Charger with the wonky wheelbase and LONG nose.  LOL.

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by randyc

[randyc]

 

1 hour ago, kilrathy10 said:

You're so right... I know that they are, for the most part, toys, but I remember, even as a little tike, I was put off by Hot Wheels issues where the wheels stuck out way further than the Matchbox offerings... Matchbox cars seemed more realistic than Hot Wheels, and as much as I complain about the scales, I most certainly, can't complain about the price... Those BBurago's are pretty awesome for the price...

I'd love to see who keeps screwing up the great cars CVS sells via camera surveillance, too... They're sold without the box on open shelving where the kids can get to them and "turn" them into "toys".... I don't know how many times they had something I would have bought had someone not broken the mirrors off....

I picked up a 2008?  GTO at Rite Aid that was missing parts.   Gave it to cashier and told her they might want to do something with it because it was broken.  She said she would give it to the rep when they restocked.   A week or two later, same GTO was back on the display.   And as many cars as they jammed in there, they get busted just by the stockist trying to put 100 cars where there is only space for 50.   I have found missing parts in the display racks.  If it's a car I want, I take the parts to fix it with the car.  They are at that store to be sold as toys I guess.  No box.   toy price point.  

And I used to want HotWheels becasue they were hot rods.  When I was a Kid.  Can't hardly look at them now.   I'd rather spend $4- $10 on a nicely detailed 1/64.  

[kilrathy10]

7 hours ago, randyc said:

 

I picked up a 2008?  GTO at Rite Aid that was missing parts.   Gave it to cashier and told her they might want to do something with it because it was broken.  She said she would give it to the rep when they restocked.   A week or two later, same GTO was back on the display.   And as many cars as they jammed in there, they get busted just by the stockist trying to put 100 cars where there is only space for 50.   I have found missing parts in the display racks.  If it's a car I want, I take the parts to fix it with the car.  They are at that store to be sold as toys I guess.  No box.   toy price point.  

And I used to want HotWheels becasue they were hot rods.  When I was a Kid.  Can't hardly look at them now.   I'd rather spend $4- $10 on a nicely detailed 1/64.  

That's exactly what I'm talking about, and if there are 2 of what I want and I can make one complete out of them, I've taken those parts, as well... Totally been there...

And, I just bought my first 1/64 scale models this past Christmas... Love the detail and the subject matter... And, I'm digging the prices for them, as well...

[randyc]

12 hours ago, kilrathy10 said:

That's exactly what I'm talking about, and if there are 2 of what I want and I can make one complete out of them, I've taken those parts, as well... Totally been there...

And, I just bought my first 1/64 scale models this past Christmas... Love the detail and the subject matter... And, I'm digging the prices for them, as well...

I have about 100 of the nice 1/64 on display all over the house.  Sometimes I put them out quietly to see how long it takes the missus to spot them. 

[kilrathy10]

3 hours ago, randyc said:

I have about 100 of the nice 1/64 on display all over the house.  Sometimes I put them out quietly to see how long it takes the missus to spot them. 

LOL!!! I'm blessed to have a very accommodating wife, but it hasn't always been that way... I just left Hobby Lobby, and I about lost my mind with the 1/64's they have... I had to tear myself away...