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andy12646

Wrinkled Paint - What Happened?

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I have two projects that I am working on concurrentley. The bodies of each have been washed thoroughly in Dawn, allowed to dry for a couple of days, sanded and washed and allowed to dry again. After a week or so, I wiped the bodies down with alcohol allowed to dry and primed with Rust-Oleum 2X Ultra Cover Flat White  Primer. I placed them in my dehydrator for 8 hours and left them set for about a week. After sanding, washing and a rub down with alcohol again I painted the bodies. First one with Krylon Fusion Pumkin Orange Gloss. Some SLIGHT wrinkles appeared when dry but were easily fixed. I painted the underside of the second body with Rust-Oleum Cobalt Blue Metallic and more wrinkles developed than with the body painted with the Krylon. Never thought I would get that kind of reaction with Rust-Oleum over Rust-Oleum. Can someone tell me what may have happened? Your thoughts and/or advise would be greatly appreciated.

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Not entirely sure of the problem but the first thing that I notice is the use of alcohol as a cleaning agent. In my mind I think any residual alcohol on the surface could effect same paints. Usually the Dawn bath and a thorough water rinse is sufficient cleaning. You didn't mention any priming of the surface which is something I would normally recommend. I have a recently purchased Rust-Oleum American Accents and notice they state that includes both paint and primer so I don't think that in its self would be a problem. The most common paint wrinkling is attributed to the use of both Enamel and Lacquer paints on the same surface.  

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1 hour ago, andy12646 said:

...Krylon Fusion...

That's probably one problem right there. That stuff is VERY aggressive as it's meant to bite into household plastics and dig in. 

Looking at the recipe, I see at least three different chemicals that can and will do bad things to kit styrene: 

https://www.krylon.com/document/SDS/en/US/724504023210

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This probably has NOTHING to do with using alcohol as a cleaner. 

UNLESS...the rattlecan primer you're using is so wimpy that the final alcohol wipe softens it enough to wrinkle under a topcoat.

BUT...I've been using alcohol cleaner prior to painting everything under the sun for over a decade...including full size aircraft where f'ups are VERY COSTLY...with never a problem. HOWEVER...I only use lacquer or catalyzed urethane and polyester primers.

I SUSPECT the MAIN reason you're having a problem is that the solvents in your paints are hotter than what your primer can resist. 

Fusion is a VERY HOT paint, designed to adhere to plastics by etching into them.

It's SO HOT that it will craze bare kit styrene badly. There have been numerous threads about this.

Your other Rustoleum blue is obviously hotter than your primer can tolerate as well.

Just because two paints are made by the same company, that's no guarantee they're all compatible...and consumer paint manufacturers are notorious for not thoroughly testing for inter-product compatibility...or providing thorough compatibility info on the cans.

TEST ON A SPARE BODY (OR ON THE UNDERSIDES) BEFORE PAINTING ANY MODEL

DO NOT RELY ON ASSUMPTIONS AND OPINIONS

 

Edited by Ace-Garageguy

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I can understand the problem with the Krylon Fusion over thr Rust-Oleum Primer but not the Rust-Oleum Blue over the Rust-Oleum Primer.

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2 minutes ago, andy12646 said:

I can understand the problem with the Krylon Fusion over thr Rust-Oleum Primer but not the Rust-Oleum Blue over the Rust-Oleum Primer.

I guess you missed my remark about products from the same company not necessarily being compatible.

That's why you TEST FIRST.

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Rustoleum is actually too hot for styrene. I primered a model with Rustoleum and a week later, it still wasn't dry. So, I stripped it. When I did, it was immediately evident that the primer had etched into the styrene. It didn't craze it badly. But, I couldn't sand all of it away. I'll never use Rustoleum on styrene again. 

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Rustoleum has caused issues for my boyfriend through the years, and that's on REAL auto parts!  😉   It supposedly doesn't play well with other paints, either under or over itself.

The "oleum" in the name is interesting:

Quote

Rust-Oleum is a manufacturer of protective paints and coatings for home and industrial use. It was founded in 1921 by Robert Fergusson, a sea captain, after he noticed that fish oil spilled on rusty metal decks stopped corrosion from spreading. He soon incorporated whale oil into the formula, although many changes have been made over the years. Rust-Oleum products no longer contain whale oil, instead using resins derived from Alkyds, polyurethanes, epoxies, latex, etc.

Quote
oleum
[ˈōlēəm]
 
NOUN
  1. a dense, corrosive liquid consisting of concentrated sulfuric acid containing excess sulfur trioxide in solution.

 

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Last year I had a problem with spraying Krylon clear over Krylon Gloss Khaki. The Khaki was smooth as silk, but as soon as the clear hit it, bad wrinkles appeared. Luckily, I started with the hood, so I didn't mess up the body.

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I'll study this thread later.... but when I need this texture for Ferrari cam covers or such, this would be a trick if it can be controlled.

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4 minutes ago, 89AKurt said:

I'll study this thread later.... but when I need this texture for Ferrari cam covers or such, this would be a trick if it can be controlled.

Yah, but you know what'll happen--if you WANT it to wrinkle, it'll be smooth as glass. 

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55 minutes ago, Snake45 said:

Yah, but you know what'll happen--if you WANT it to wrinkle, it'll be smooth as glass. 

🤣 Which Murphy's Law is that?

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Something else that can cause is when you can recoat. On the can it sometimes says you can  recoat the same paint . in a certain amount of time. For example you can recoat within 2 hours or after 24. Another reason against you different manufactuer or different paint types from the same manufactuer. Makes testing even more important.

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Chris (HPI guy) seems to be using Rust-Oleum over Rust-Oleum primer with no issue. Yes, I've been watching his videos lately. 

Any thoughts on why it works for him and not others? I was planning on using his method when I can get back to building. 

Thanks,

Russ

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2 hours ago, russosborne said:

Chris (HPI guy) seems to be using Rust-Oleum over Rust-Oleum primer with no issue. Yes, I've been watching his videos lately. 

Any thoughts on why it works for him and not others? I was planning on using his method when I can get back to building. 

Thanks,

Russ

One more time...ALL PAINT PRODUCTS FROM ONE MANUFACTURER ARE NOT NECESSARILY COMPATIBLE

Some quick research on the web pulls up pages saying that the 2X Ultra Cover product is Acrylic Modified Alkyd enamel.

We know Fusion is hot like a lacquer. There's problem 1

The blue metallic the OP had an issue with is FROM A DIFFERENT RUSTOLEUM PRODUCT LINE THAN THE 2X PRIMER.

There's a good chance that's problem 2.

But it's not my dog, and that's all the research I'm doing.

All these products have technical data sheets available explaining how to use them, and what their chemical composition is.

AND WHEN IN DOUBT, TEST FIRST.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy

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NOTE: Your primer is an enamel. Most enamel primers are non-sanding. Sanding opens the surface and MAY allow solvents to penetrate enough to cause wrinkling.

I've had this happen on real cars a couple of times when I didn't know what crapp the previous jackleg had used.

NOTE 2: 2X primer IS NOT RECOMMENDED UNDER THE BLUE YOU'RE USING.

Here's the TDS for the blue. Read the list of recommended primers. Problem solved.

https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/DigitalEncyclopedia/Documents/RustoleumUSA/TDS/English/CBG/Stops Rust/SRT-07_Stops_Rust_Outdoor_Metallic_Sprays_TDS.ashx

Edited by Ace-Garageguy

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Thank you, Ace! Your answers make sense. I figured  Problem 1 was because of the different manufacturers of the primer and paint. As far as Problem 2, I never thought about the difference of products within the SAME manufacturer. Also, I was never aware that enamel primers were non-sanding as I have always sanded the primer before finish painting. I think I have just been lucky with the results though I have only completed about a dozen models. BTW I did test prim and paint plastic spoons before I preped and painted the bodies. Wouldn't you know, the spoons turned out great! All this leads me to one last question: what primer would you recommend for enamel and what primer for lacquer. Sand before finish coat or not?

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Plastic spoons are not the same as what models are made of, however, they may contain Polystyrene in them, they also consist of  PET (#1 plastic) or polypropylene (#5 plastic).

I would recommend, Lacquer primer for both Enamel and Lacquer paint.  

Edited by porschercr

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21 minutes ago, porschercr said:

Plastic spoons are not the same as what models are made of, however, they may contain Polystyrene in them, they also consist of  PET (#1 plastic) or polypropylene (#5 plastic).

I would recommend, Lacquer primer for both Enamel and Lacquer paint.  

Trevor,  plastic spoons are not a mixture of different types of plastic.  They are either made of polystyrene, or usually polypropylene.

Polystyrene will be closest to what injection model kits are made from (Either polystyrene or ABS).  Polystyrene spoons are very brittle (they will easily snap). Polypropylene cutlery is very flexible and will not snap easily.  I have never seen plastic cutlery made from PET. The recycling symbol on the box are also a clue as to what the spoons are made of.

Edited by peteski

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1 hour ago, andy12646 said:

Thank you, Ace! Your answers make sense. I figured  Problem 1 was because of the different manufacturers of the primer and paint. As far as Problem 2, I never thought about the difference of products within the SAME manufacturer. Also, I was never aware that enamel primers were non-sanding as I have always sanded the primer before finish painting. I think I have just been lucky with the results though I have only completed about a dozen models. BTW I did test prim and paint plastic spoons before I preped and painted the bodies. Wouldn't you know, the spoons turned out great! All this leads me to one last question: what primer would you recommend for enamel and what primer for lacquer. Sand before finish coat or not?

Duplicolor sandable primer..Its lacquer based and can virtually shoot anything over it..I've also found Plasticote sandable primer is good too if you can find it, but make sure its got the three number product on the back  ex T-235, that tells you its lacquer..

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52 minutes ago, peteski said:

Trevor,  plastic spoons are not a mixture of different types of plastic.  They are either made of polystyrene, or usually polypropylene.

Polystyrene will be closest to what injection model kits are made from (Either polystyrene or ABS).  Polystyrene spoons are very brittle (they will easily snap). Polypropylene cutlery is very flexible and will not snap easily.  I have never seen plastic cutlery made from PET. The recycling symbol on the box are also a clue as to what the spoons are made of.

I apologize, I misread.

Edited by porschercr

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11 minutes ago, moparfarmer said:

Duplicolor sandable primer..Its lacquer based and can virtually shoot anything over it..I've also found Plasticote sandable primer is good too if you can find it, but make sure its got the three number product on the back  ex T-235, that tells you its lacquer..

👍

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THANKS to you all for you input and recommendations in helping me further understand the many characteristics and compatibility of various paints and primers.

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