Tamiya Ford Mustang GT4

[Luc Janssens]

1 hour ago, tim boyd said:

Well,,,,,in 40+ years of writing about model cars, I've been called many things, but this is the first time I ever recall being called "Hypocritical" in a public forum. 

Ironically, at certain times that's what I've privately thought while reading comments that put import kitmakers on a pedestal reading "those who can do no wrong" while continually bashing (sometimes with full justification, other times not so much) the domestic kitmakers.   You wanna talk about one piece blobs of chassis detail found in domestic kits tooled in the 1960's?   OK, fine, let's compare those to the import kitmakers' "kits" tooled in the 1960's.....yes....those incredibly poorly rendered, distorted blobs with battery powered engines.....not today's newly tooled kits from all the kitmakers, be they domestic or imported.  Incorrectly flipping the inner door structure ribbing on the '30A Coupe kit....well, that's a far more relevant comparison, although in my own view it doesn't quite match up to omitting an entire upper engine and engine compartment structure.  Getting basic body proportions wrong...well now that's a pretty major fail that deserves every bit of criticism that applies.  That makes it much less likely that a given kit will be built...just as an omitted engine compartment also makes it less likely a kit will be built (at least by some of us).   

Guys, I respect and even cherish the various views expressed here, and am greatly encouraged that this forum brings a voice to a diverse group of younger (relatively speaking) model builders who bring much needed fresh perspectives to our hobby.   One of those perspectives is that clearly that some (or even many?) of you do not place the value on completely detailed innards - specifically in the engine compartment, that some others of us others do.  Fine, viva la difference! 

And i am not going to begin to suggest that Revell, Round 2, Moebius or anyone else for that matter, consistently belongs at the top of the kitmaker pile.  I also wish to acknowledge my appreciation  for today's imported kitmakers, particularly so Tamiya, for their vast range of modeling kit topics (including some subjects that the domestic kitmakers should have, but declined to, put into kit form),  the new techniques and innovations that they have brought to the hobby and the art of kitmaking,  the assembly quality and fit/finish they achieve, and their unwavering support of the publications that chronicle kit building in all its forms.   There is no doubt that they have been a great contributor to the success of model car building.  

But they, nor any of the kitmakers of this world, are above criticism when the shoe fits.   And in this case, the lack of an engine compromises what this kit could have accomplished for the hobby and for the kitmaker, not to mention those of us builders out there who still believe that for the price these kits demand, they should be complete in every detail.  

In this forum, I readily acknowledge that I am clearly in the minority in this view, but this is my strongly held belief and I will stick to it until the day I die.  Nevertheless, I acknowledge the right of other members of this forum to express their strongly held views as well.   I hope we can continue this discussion, but hopefully without name calling going forward.   

Best to everyone...TIM 

 

Tim, I don't know if you're in the minority here, just because a few take the time to voice their opinion, many many more here only read and don't wanna enter the discussion, cuz there's no right or wrong.

Also the weak and strong point of the automotive side of the hobby is that there are many different kinds of modelers, be it either the weekend modeler or the group which is often referred to, as the lunatic fringe, and then everything in between, so a company always will have something for everyone, while disappointing everyone else

There are modelers who are pretty comfortable with wire axles, one piece chassis and chrome-headlamp design, the other wish a true scale replica, with all the whistles and bells of the subject chosen.

Tamiya in this instance made a design decision, based merits only know to them,  it could be price setting, consumer feedback or just what they thought the kit should look like, now we can all voice our opinion here, but doubt that any of our concerns, wishes or praise will get to the those making the dissensions there, they will look at the ROI and feedback from their national and international distributors.

Is it bad voicing our opinion be it praise or disappointment, no cuz personally I too would've like an engine, but know that aftermarket companies who are much more flexible and more in touch, (and can make a buck on dealing) with the smaller niche, will jump in to fill that void, will it come at an extra cost, yes...but I'm willing to pay that to have something that will give me 100% satisfaction.

And yes no need for name calling,  but in the heat of the moment, we all sometimes do something we might regret later, and I'm not an exception, we're all here just because of one thing, the passion that unites us all, the love of building/collection and talking about scale automotive model kits.

Luc

Edited March 31, 2020 by Luc Janssens

[vamach1]

I agree 100% Mr. Boyd.  I think the Japanese have always liked the Exotic european engines and will go to great lengths to make detailed racing and non-race car kits and let the American based companies make muscle cars and sedans, etc. usually with engines to please the Ford, Chevy, Mopar guys etc.. Meanwhile in Europe most North American builders ignored the fabulous (usually curbside but very accurate) 1/43 kits in resin and metal and covered many cars not available to ths day in 1/25 scale.  I know these statements are a ast over simplification but I am pretty grateful for whatever is out there but I also will be the first to point out "errors" such as "that engine never came in that year Mustang" but most of us are talented enough to makes things right.  If not, we look to the resin casters that make our hobby ever better and we can forget about all the current chaos and do what we enjoy in one of the few silver linings of the times - time to spend with family and some extra hobby time.

[Daddyfink]

So, the engine vs. no engine shall remain an argument for the ages. But, as I learned from a wise, and very talented, model builders years ago is, who is going to see it while it sits on a shelf collecting dust? 

Also, how much more would this kit be if the extra tooling had to be made for the engine and everything that goes with it? I know, some of you would pay it, but, some of us would hesitate. 

Like I said before, we as American model builders are spoiled with almost every kit having an engine, even if it is a lump of an engine. But like I also said, I would happily buy a well detailed and proportioned kit if it meant no engine. Current tooled kits have been hit and miss by U.S. kit makers, but Tamiya has been pretty consistent in quality and fidelity. And most of their kits do not have engines. 

Don't believe me, then go build a Tamiya kit and then decide. 

[highway]

15 minutes ago, Daddyfink said:

So, the engine vs. no engine shall remain an argument for the ages. But, as I learned from a wise, and very talented, model builders years ago is, who is going to see it while it sits on a shelf collecting dust? 

Also, how much more would this kit be if the extra tooling had to be made for the engine and everything that goes with it? I know, some of you would pay it, but, some of us would hesitate. 

Like I said before, we as American model builders are spoiled with almost every kit having an engine, even if it is a lump of an engine. But like I also said, I would happily buy a well detailed and proportioned kit if it meant no engine. Current tooled kits have been hit and miss by U.S. kit makers, but Tamiya has been pretty consistent in quality and fidelity. And most of their kits do not have engines. 

Don't believe me, then go build a Tamiya kit and then decide. 

EXACTLY!!! You hit the nail on the head and drove it in all in shot Jesse! 

My only question is how many that complain about Tamiya making this a curbside kit or any other curbsides for that matter and also complain about import kit prices would trip over a Tamiya kit running for the chance to spend twice to three times the cost of an import kit for an old screwbottom kit or promo that is gasp....A CURBSIDE!!! 

[Chuck Kourouklis]

All I can say is, this looks waaaayyy better than Tamiya's LAST attempt at a Mustang.  Yup, said it: Tamiya is a manufacturer that at least occasionally does wrong.  And even that horrid SN95 was retooled into a Cobra R with a mashed greenhouse and a rudimentary engine, so who knows?

On the other hand, Tamiya kits have NEVER failed me on deadlines. There are just no excuses in the last 10 or so I've built; stuff fits as its supposed to fit, so yeah, I'm going to rate a 135-piece Tamiya rally car that both spends its parts count on a detailed interior and practically sucks itself together over a 92-piece domestic that can't get its hood around an optional blower.  I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is no objective basis for panning a kit simply for omitting an engine; the more credible opinions on these matters are formed on a kit by kit basis.

That said, is there a SUBJECTIVE basis for complaint? Particularly in light of what US domestic manufacturers - who were there first - have conditioned us to expect? Sure!  That's why even though I part ways with Tim on his ultimate conclusion, I share nearly all of his disappointment.  Comes to it, I'd really rather have a full engine too.

And while the hypocrisy described in this thread is a real thing, I personally have yet to see where Tim is guilty of it.

[Jhedir6]

48 minutes ago, Chuck Kourouklis said:

All I can say is, this looks waaaayyy better than Tamiya's LAST attempt at a Mustang.  Yup, said it: Tamiya is a manufacturer that at least occasionally does wrong.  And even that horrid SN95 was retooled into a Cobra R with a mashed greenhouse and a rudimentary engine, so who knows?

 

Not defending the last Mustang R from Tamiya but keep in mind, that kit was done what almost 25yrs ago now? There was no 3D scanning like we have now. The new GT4 Mustang should be 100% spot on, why? Cause Tamiya came to Canada to Multimatic's shop with their 3D scanning equipment and scanned that car, as well as the Ford GT. Eventhough the GT doesn't have a full engine either, I dont really think anyone can find many other faults with the detail and accuracy of the kit other than the tires...which no one seems to get right nowadays outside of actual race tires, 3D scanning takes out the guess work on proportions. 

Now I've not had one in my hands yet, not for lack of trying to get an early copy, but from the pics/videos and instructions I'd say they got it right....minus the full engine. And without anyone being able to get someone from Tamiya to "on the record" state why they skipped the full detailed motor, its all speculation on all our parts.

I'm excited for this kit, why, cause its not a reissue of a 40yr old tooled kit that I have 15 of in my stash already with new box art, Coke decals and a higher price tag. I'll happily pay $60 a piece for each of these kits (cause that's what a good price in Canadian will be) cause Tamiya kits are just plain worth it. 

[Luc Janssens]

8 minutes ago, Jhedir6 said:

I'm excited for this kit, why, cause its not a reissue of a 40yr old tooled kit that I have 15 of in my stash already with new box art, Coke decals and a higher price tag. I'll happily pay $60 a piece for each of these kits (cause that's what a good price in Canadian will be) cause Tamiya kits are just plain worth it. 

A comment I can agree with 100%

[vamach1]

I bet a few out there would not mind seeing both of these kits reissued.  I built these in the 90's.  After I took the pictures I touched up the stripe decals with blue paint on the Kemp Cobra.

Edited March 31, 2020 by vamach1

[Zoom Zoom]

I build kits from domestic & overseas companies, have been doing so for decades. I'm stupid happy that the Mustang GT4 is coming from Tamiya, have two on order and different ideas for both. The kit is right up my alley, I've been following sports car racing since the mid '70's, a Mustang fan since the '60's when my aunt bought herself a new '65 Mustang CV and then another new one in 1970. She loved those cars, it was infectious. From my countless hours spent at the bench Tamiya has more than earned my respect; I build models from nearly every company and have been building them for 50 years, Tamiya stands rightly atop the heap and they somehow manage to improve even more with every kit they introduce, they also learn from past mistakes. They're far smarter/savvier than anyone in this thread, myself included. I've seen the buzz in social media from the guys that are going to happily buy/build multiples. Tamiya's going to have no problem selling these kits. They have a worldwide audience of enthusiasts building their models, at a younger average age that gives hope to the future of this hobby. 

The only fail (really a travesty) I see in regards to this Mustang model is the simple fact that it's taken over 5 years for only one company, Tamiya, to make a serious enthusiast-oriented kit of a modern 2015-up Mustang. It's up to their usual high quality and customer satisfaction, regardless of complaints about the lack of an engine, which is fine by me, I build primarily for the design aspects of a car, not the guts that make a real one work (unless they're visible in a closed up car). I can't get in and drive any of them. Big picture: domestic kit companies have handed the enthusiast builder market for this subject (and others-like the new Ford GT) on a silver platter to Tamiya. Revell's 2015/2018 super-simplified Mustang GT's were paid for by Ford for promotional purposes, they had to be simple enough for a toddler to build, cheap and fast-tracked to get them out in a short timeframe and are inferior in detail to even cheap 1/24 diecast models, and meanwhile Revell is no longer a domestic company. You want your Revell Mustang or Ford GT to look like a Tamiya kit when finished? You're going to have to sweat for it, and don't turn it over or look too close inside. There is no domestic company for whatever reason that is healthy and viable enough anymore to take on an easy-selling subject like the modern Mustang, otherwise it would have happened by now. Meanwhile those of us buying/building the Tamiya kit will be happy that someone somewhere was capable of filling the void. The aftermarket will step up as they always do with modern racing subjects because serious builders often spend many multiples of the kit purchase price on aftermarket super-detailing supplies. That's a win for the kit company, the aftermarket, and the builders. 

Bottom line: we're getting a killer kit of a modern Mustang from literally the best company possible to tackle it at this point in time. That's honestly all that matters at this point. 

[Chuck Kourouklis]

23 minutes ago, Jhedir6 said:

Not defending the last Mustang R from Tamiya but keep in mind, that kit was done what almost 25yrs ago now? There was no 3D scanning like we have now. The new GT4 Mustang should be 100% spot on, why? Cause Tamiya came to Canada to Multimatic's shop with their 3D scanning equipment and scanned that car, as well as the Ford GT...

Brother, the choir can only say "amen" to your preaching.  I've only hectored the domestics online and in print about LIDAR for the better part of a decade by now.

4 minutes ago, Zoom Zoom said:

I build kits from domestic & overseas companies, have been doing so for decades. I'm stupid happy that the Mustang GT4 is coming from Tamiya, have two on order and different ideas for both...  Bottom line: we're getting a killer kit of a modern Mustang from literally the best company possible to tackle it at this point in time. That's honestly all that matters at this point. 

Lookit that, two "amens" in one day. ?

[Dave Van]

Anyone having one of the awful SN95 Tamiya kits can send it to me for disposal......I owned a 1/1 and would love a few of the kits....warts and all! 

[DiscoRover007]

Im super stoked for the Mustang GT4. Glad Tamiya is taking on American Muscle . I hope it is the start of a new trend. Would love to see Tamiya take on a Viper in 1/24 scale, Dodge Challenger, hell hopefully the new C8 Corvette. 

[Luc Janssens]

What IMHO makes Tamiya great is that it's a company not run by American MBA's, Their mission, create within limits the best possible plastic model kit, for enthusiast modelers. They embrace new technology and will incorporate it when they design, it also helps that Tamiya is still Tamiya and not a company that changed hands several times, so they can maintain their level of quality and all noses point the same way concerning strategy, but Japanese are also stubborn people and will do what "they" will think is right , anyway that's what Francois Verlinden always said to me, and he dealt with (the late) Mr Tamiya  (sr.) .

 

In the US the engineers more often than not have struggle with the "faster cheaper" managers who look at end users as suckers, relying on old technology for short term profit and every time the company changes hands, a new corporate executive will implement his great new vision on what the company product line will have to look like, but by the result of these ideas will show, will be gone on his quest to be at the top of the food chain.

Anyway the gist I'm getting from this tread is, we're all very happy that Tamiya is releasing this kit, only some of us hoped there was more icing or extra whip-cream topping on the already absolutely delicious cake, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

Luc

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Luc Janssens

[martinfan5]

11 hours ago, Jhedir6 said:

Yes its based off the Shelby GT350 but it does infact have a Roush-Yates engine in it.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/gt4/

 

Ahh, right it does, so I even looked at that, but its clear I missed the very first sentence that said it was a RY engine.?

Edited March 31, 2020 by martinfan5

[martinfan5]

2 hours ago, Jhedir6 said:

I'm excited for this kit, why, cause its not a reissue of a 40yr old tooled kit that I have 15 of in my stash already with new box art, Coke decals and a higher price tag. I'll happily pay $60 a piece for each of these kits (cause that's what a good price in Canadian will be) cause Tamiya kits are just plain worth it. 

I mean , this , Tamiya is moving forward why Round 2 is living in the past while sipping on Coke, price wise,   Round 2 kits are sitting right around $30, the new Mustang kit can he had for in the $30's...............

Edited March 31, 2020 by martinfan5

[RickyD]

2 hours ago, martinfan5 said:

I mean , this , Tamiya is moving forward why Round 2 is living in the past while sipping on Coke, price wise,   Round 2 kits are sitting right around $30, the new Mustang kit can he had for in the $30's...............

Yep, the upcoming AMT '64 Olds reissue with the retooled body has an MSRP of $34. The recent Moebius '65-'66 Ford pickups and '65 Plymouth AWB kits are also priced in the mid-$30 range. So anyone thinking Tamiya kits MUST be full detail because they're premium-priced compared to the rest of the market is obviously out of touch with said market.

Edited April 1, 2020 by RickyD

[Jordan White]

5 hours ago, Zoom Zoom said:

The only fail (really a travesty) I see in regards to this Mustang model is the simple fact that it's taken over 5 years for only one company, Tamiya, to make a serious enthusiast-oriented kit of a modern 2015-up Mustang.

This has been my thoughts as well, there have been several newer subjects that would be huge sellers, yet no one wants to kit them. Current gen Mustang (until now), current Ecoboost F150, Challenger Hellcat, C8 Corvette (yes it just came out, but no peeps yet about a kit), Ram Cummins (or really any truck within the past decade), Focus RS, and so on. I’m excited for this kit since I love Tamiya kits and it’s of a subject that I’ve not seen yet.

[Hotrod 97]

Oooo a Mustang kit, and a race car kit, all in one (see my signature for more details ?). I’m gonna have to get my hands on one. Or, ya know, a few...

[Justin Porter]

15 hours ago, RickyD said:

Yep, the upcoming AMT '64 Olds reissue with the retooled body has an MSRP of $34. The recent Moebius '65-'66 Ford pickups and '65 Plymouth AWB kits are also priced in the mid-$30 range. So anyone thinking Tamiya kits MUST be full detail because they're premium-priced compared to the rest of the market is obviously out of touch with said market.

Absolutely! 

In fact, here's a fun sampling of Tamiya 1/24th scale auto kits that currently sit UNDER the upcoming '64 Olds F85 kit's MSRP according to my wholesale distributor. 

Porsche 959 $22.50 (kit number 24065)
R32 Skyline GTR $22.50 (kit number 24090)
1966 VW 1300 Beetle $30.00 (kit number 24136)
Toyota Supra $28.00 (kit number 24123)

Now, granted, those do lend some leverage to the "Why no full engine?" argument as they all are full detail kits, but they're also older tooling from either the 80's or 90's. Still nice to build with, but nothing like their kits of the past decade. 

It's also worth mentioning that for a time Tamiya went positively BERSERK with their price-point as evidenced by kits like their Lexus LFA or Aston Martin DBS, but for the past five years or so they've concentrated on restraining themselves to come back to a more competitive spot. I'd say probably either the 300SL Gullwing or the new NSX were when they started to come back down to Earth. 

 

[Luc Janssens]

52 minutes ago, Justin Porter said:

Absolutely! 

In fact, here's a fun sampling of Tamiya 1/24th scale auto kits that currently sit UNDER the upcoming '64 Olds F85 kit's MSRP according to my wholesale distributor. 

Porsche 959 $22.50 (kit number 24065)
R32 Skyline GTR $22.50 (kit number 24090)
1966 VW 1300 Beetle $30.00 (kit number 24136)
Toyota Supra $28.00 (kit number 24123)

Now, granted, those do lend some leverage to the "Why no full engine?" argument as they all are full detail kits, but they're also older tooling from either the 80's or 90's. Still nice to build with, but nothing like their kits of the past decade. 

It's also worth mentioning that for a time Tamiya went positively BERSERK with their price-point as evidenced by kits like their Lexus LFA or Aston Martin DBS, but for the past five years or so they've concentrated on restraining themselves to come back to a more competitive spot. I'd say probably either the 300SL Gullwing or the new NSX were when they started to come back down to Earth. 

 

Round2 is also older tooling, and Moebius doesn't have "one trick pony's" in their automotive lineup,  also both don't have such features like metal transfers and pre-cut window masks.

 

[keyser]

Chuck, that's one amen per Zoom. 

Seems myopic that hugely popular car like Mustang didn't advance from snap. Same with 2 iterations of Raptor/F150. They sell 2-3 Ford trucks per minute, 24/7/365, so I'd think someone would like a replica. 

Hellcat, Trackhawk, new Bronco, all popular. Someone had said Vette kits dead, OK, do promo style kit, but get it out there. 
Hard to get anyone under 30 to think Pintos, Vegas, and Pacers are fun builds. 

[Justin Porter]

9 minutes ago, Luc Janssens said:

Round2 is also older tooling, and Moebius doesn't have "one trick pony's" in their automotive lineup,  also both don't have such features like metal transfers and pre-cut window masks.

 

Oh I agree entirely. Moebius, I feel, is sitting right about where they should on price point. Revell I congratulate for keeping prices as low as they have while still creating new tooling like the astonishing new Land Rover. Tamiya is offering excellent products at their price point (for the most part) and isn't pricing out of step with the rest of the hobby and is even beating competitors on some examples. 

Heck, in the realm of 1/20th scale F1 kits they're by far and away the price leaders compared to Fujimi and Ebbro. 

[Luc Janssens]

4 minutes ago, Justin Porter said:

Oh I agree entirely. Moebius, I feel, is sitting right about where they should on price point. Revell I congratulate for keeping prices as low as they have while still creating new tooling like the astonishing new Land Rover. Tamiya is offering excellent products at their price point (for the most part) and isn't pricing out of step with the rest of the hobby and is even beating competitors on some examples. 

Heck, in the realm of 1/20th scale F1 kits they're by far and away the price leaders compared to Fujimi and Ebbro. 

Pure speculation on my part, but the reason too that Tamiya didn't include an engine in their kit, could be that they feared they could've been priced out of the north American market, if  Revell would've tooled up a new kit of it, remember this kit was in the works before  Hobbico imploded.

And the American market in this case seems of importance cuz the kit will be released here first...

[Chuck Kourouklis]

3 hours ago, keyser said:

Chuck, that's one amen per Zoom. 

Seems myopic that hugely popular car like Mustang didn't advance from snap. Same with 2 iterations of Raptor/F150. They sell 2-3 Ford trucks per minute, 24/7/365, so I'd think someone would like a replica. 

Hellcat, Trackhawk, new Bronco, all popular. Someone had said Vette kits dead, OK, do promo style kit, but get it out there. 
Hard to get anyone under 30 to think Pintos, Vegas, and Pacers are fun builds. 

Bears repeating. ?

[martinfan5]

4 hours ago, keyser said:

Chuck, that's one amen per Zoom. 

Seems myopic that hugely popular car like Mustang didn't advance from snap. Same with 2 iterations of Raptor/F150. They sell 2-3 Ford trucks per minute, 24/7/365, so I'd think someone would like a replica. 

Hellcat, Trackhawk, new Bronco, all popular. Someone had said Vette kits dead, OK, do promo style kit, but get it out there. 
Hard to get anyone under 30 to think Pintos, Vegas, and Pacers are fun builds. 

Bears repeating X2?

Edited April 1, 2020 by martinfan5