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The issues with scratch building


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11 hours ago, peteski said:

All the tooling accessories? You don't have to buy all the accessories, and there often are new accessories introduced.  If you bought them all then yes, their price would surely exceed the cost of the bare tool.

I started with the Sherline lathe, and a basic set of cutters over 30 years ago., Since that time I slowly added more and more accessories.  Some of the accessories I bought were not required (I could do the job with what I had, but the new accessory would make the task easier).

I agree Peter, I bought my Sherline lathe around 14 years ago with just the accessories included in the package back then and I bought the needed accessories and cutting tools when they were necessary based on my new needs.   Few years later, I bought the milling base and the milling column separately and shared the head stock and motor unit on both equipments for several years before finally buy another one a get two complete machines.  I think it's still a good way to spread the expense over time if you're not too hurry of course...

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2 hours ago, AmericanMuscleFan said:

I agree Peter, I bought my Sherline lathe around 14 years ago with just the accessories included in the package back then and I bought the needed accessories and cutting tools when they were necessary based on my new needs.   Few years later, I bought the milling base and the milling column separately and shared the head stock and motor unit on both equipments for several years before finally buy another one a get two complete machines.  I think it's still a good way to spread the expense over time if you're not too hurry of course...

Yea, me too.  Of course when you do that, don't ever, under any circumstances, go back and total up what you have spent!  It will leave you gasping for air for a month!?  PS  I have a real problem.  I live about 15 minutes from the Sherline factory and can zip over any time I need something.  Far to much zipping!?

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5 hours ago, AmericanMuscleFan said:

I agree Peter, I bought my Sherline lathe around 14 years ago with just the accessories included in the package back then and I bought the needed accessories and cutting tools when they were necessary based on my new needs.   Few years later, I bought the milling base and the milling column separately and shared the head stock and motor unit on both equipments for several years before finally buy another one a get two complete machines.  I think it's still a good way to spread the expense over time if you're not too hurry of course...

You pretty much described my upgrade process.  First major upgrade was a vertical column attachment to convert my lather into a small milling machine.    Few year later I had the  funds to buy the X-Y mill table. That, along with the vertical column I originally used with my lather gave me a full blown mill.  I still only had one head-stock/motor between them until when I bought a second head-stock/motor.  The last "luxury" item I bought was a DRO (digital readout).  I only bought one head unit and enough handwheel sensors to equip both, the mill, and lathe. I switch the DRO between the lathe and mill, as needed.  Of course, in between I bought multiple accessories, as I found them needed for the tasks at hand. For example a precision drilling attachment is one of them.  So yes, over the 30+ years I owned Sherline equipment, I spent more money for the accessories/updates than I spent on my original lathe, but it was well worth it.  What is really nice about the Sherline is the flexibility of its modular construction.  the head-stock/motor can be easily swapped between lathe and mill (one Allen screw needs to be loosened).

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4 hours ago, Pete J. said:

Of course when you do that, don't ever, under any circumstances, go back and total up what you have spent!  It will leave you gasping for air for a month!

Yes, and not counting that I bought the lathe when our heavily devalued Canadian dollar was at its historical lowest exchange rate back then (1 CND = 0.60 USD).  I wanted one so badly that I paid a high price but my Sherline equipments are my pride and joy and I don't regret for a second the investment, I know they will last and the pleasure working with is priceless!

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1 hour ago, afx said:

The issues with scratch building is once you start you can't stop!

This!

It’s addictive. Once I realised I could make some parts better than came in the kit, I feel compelled to do so. 
 

Sure takes a long time to finish a build these days, though. 

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I saw a short video showing a turret attachment being used on a Sherline lathe. Great for repetitive work as it effectively converted the little Sherline into a capstan  lathe by replacing the tail stock with this device. Furthermore the machine had an extra tool holder at the back of the cross slide with an inverted tool to allow for the direction of rotation. Does the  little Sherline not have a reverse rotation gear built in?  If not it will be similar to my little Unimat only being able to rotate in one direction.

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8 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

I saw a short video showing a turret attachment being used on a Sherline lathe. Great for repetitive work as it effectively converted the little Sherline into a capstan  lathe by replacing the hailstorm with this device. Furthermore the machine had an extra tool holder at the back of the cross slide with an inverted tool to allow for the direction of rotation. Does the  little Sherline not have a reverse rotation gear built in?  If not it will be similar to my little Unimat only being able to rotate in one direction.

No reverse.  Strictly a one way machine, though I don't know if it would have to be.  The motor on the current models is a DC motor so I suppose you could rig up a wiring  harness to reverse the direction.  The cross slide is also designed to run on the "back side" of the piece with the tool upside down.  When I think about it, a reverse would be handy.

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Please excuse the typo in my last post.  Hailstorm should read tail stock. Thought that I had edited it. Must have forgot to save the edit. Hope it makes more sense now. My tablet has a habit of auto changing words unlike my PC.

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2 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

Please excuse the typo in my last post.  Hailstorm should read tail stock. Thought that I had edited it. Must have forgot to save the edit. Hope it makes more sense now. My tablet has a habit of auto changing words unlike my PC.

You original post still has the mistake. It was only made 18 hours ago, so you could still edit it and correct the hailstorm. :)

As for the nasty auto-correct problem, I don't own a tablet, but I suspect that you could disable auto-correct, and just make your own misteaks. ;)

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Edit worked on my original as you suggested Pete. Thanks for that. Thought that posts could not be edited once committed and left for a day or so. I will check out my tablet and see if I can disable the auto correct check function on it.

Edited by Bugatti Fan
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Checked my tablet (Amazon Kindle Fire) but could not find an option amongst the settings to disable the auto correct. I will just have to be a bit more attentive when posting. 

With regard to small(ish) lathes there are two companies in the UK who have supplied machines to the educational sector for many years. Boxford  and Denford. They still supply machines to education, mainly CNC machines now. But back in the early days technical colleges and schools used their conventional machines. I can remember using Boxford bench top lathes at Tech College when I was an apprentice way back in the 60's. There must be a number of these machines around second hand it anyone wants something a bit bigger than a Sherline or Unimat 4.  Boxford I believe still hold spares for all of their old machines, and possibly Denford also.  Another machine that comes to mind is the Myford lathe. Very popular with model engineers. And also the Colchester Student Lathe. Both of these are excellent machines and are free standing units.

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I thought I'd add my two cents. Going back to the OP , I also use wire and other type of metal shapes for strenght in thin stuff. My scratch building is not as advanced as the wonders one sees here but it has similar roots. You don't have one, make one. I also use store bought structural styrene and brass but I seem to find a lot of it in discarded everyday stuff. So I maintain a well stocked shape box. I have a Taig Lathe which meets most of my needs. I still have to learn how to index holes. At least I think that is what it's called. Like the hole pattern in a circle (rim, flywheel, flange,etc).I built a lot of tools and machines for my engine shop dio using junk mixed with styrene. Or I'll use an existing kit part as a base and start from there, i.e. the Big Al  AC truck engine. I have scale charts all over the wall as well. I second the comment above that this gets to be somewhat addictive.

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2 hours ago, landman said:

You don't have one, make one. I also use store bought structural styrene and brass but I seem to find a lot of it in discarded everyday stuff. So I maintain a well stocked shape box.

It's true Pat and it's always a good habit to keep some of those everyday material that might useful to build parts from scratch.  You do have a nice inventory by the way...

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I'm glad to see so many doing things with a lathe.  What a great tool it is.  That and learning a bit about soldering small parts has made a big difference in how I approach my scratch building.  Another material I found was Renshape.  It is good not only for making patterns to cast from but it is great stuff to carve.  With no grain it is strong in every direction.  And when it is milled there is no fuzz around the edges of the cut.  I was very fortunate a couple of years ago to be able to purchase a 2" x 4' x 24" block of the 450 grade for very little $$.  Oh.  And it takes primer and paint with no problems.

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On 5/8/2020 at 12:52 AM, Pete J. said:

If I were to guesstimate, I would say you are pretty much spot on, but I would think that with end mills and other bits and pieces, I'm pretty close to double the original purchase in accesories, but then that is well over 10 years of working with the machines. 

Pete,

From our discussions and research I have done on my own; if planned out well, the tooling can easily cost 1/3 of the initial investment.  Mind you, the materials is where it will bite you in the ass. I am saying this because you can make all the tools you need with the right setup. Knowing that, and if you have the skill, the tools you can buy versus the tools you can make, the cost ends up decreasing exponentially. But of course this is choice vs. simplicity and ease of access vs. time investment. 

For stupidly determined people like me, I would go the time investment route and hell, I would probably go the ease of access route from time to time. Just the fact that I have decided to invest in a sherline vs. making a lathe or mill myself (due to lack of tools) shows that I am taking the accessibility route. The cost of making your own desktop mill (if you have a drill press, tap and die set, reamers, etc.) can cost about 100$. Making a desktop lathe can cost about the same....

Here are a couple of useful links to do so (I was going down this route to start):
https://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/hobby-lathe-plans.html
https://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/turret-lathe-plans.html
https://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/lathe-modelling.html
https://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/tap-holder-attachment.html
https://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/drill-vise-mill.html
https://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/lathe-tool-slide.html
https://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/low-speed-drill-press-plans.html
https://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/power-hacksaw-plans.html
 

Majority of these plans came from Popular Mechanics back in the 50s.

Yah, I'm going to be building a few of these...

Justin

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44 minutes ago, Chariots of Fire said:

I'm glad to see so many doing things with a lathe.  What a great tool it is.  That and learning a bit about soldering small parts has made a big difference in how I approach my scratch building.  Another material I found was Renshape.  It is good not only for making patterns to cast from but it is great stuff to carve.  With no grain it is strong in every direction.  And when it is milled there is no fuzz around the edges of the cut.  I was very fortunate a couple of years ago to be able to purchase a 2" x 4' x 24" block of the 450 grade for very little $$.  Oh.  And it takes primer and paint with no problems.

Man, don't even get me started on soldering! HAHAHA. I went to brass as soldering silver is a PITA! Then I discovered that brass makes heat travel more evenly and faster than silver. DANG!!!!

Talking to a machinist friend of mine locally who does large scale train builds and restorations, he said stick with steel as it is the cheapest and greatest metal for parts. Unfortunately for the tiny stuff, brass and nickel-silver is the only way to go.

And I see that a lot of people here went the lathe route first then milling route. I am still curious if it is a lack of skill and confidence issue or it is really a cost issue. I say this not to offend, but really to question. For me I am taking the lathe route, only due to cost reasons. If I start with a sherline mill, the accessories to convert it to a lathe and get the other tools to make things work will be almost double the cost of going the opposite route. I wonder why that is. Also as Pete explained to me, you can always make your own tools. And from the 200+ videos I have watched in the past week about machining, yes this is true. Francis has also helped me making my decision, and seeing his work is amazing also!

I am always humbled by seeing the skills of the builders on this forum! 

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Pat (Landman in Ontario) your Taig lathe looks incredibly very much like the Peatol Miniature lathe that I mentioned in an earlier post. Could it be the self same machine under a different brand name? Last time I saw one was at a Model Engineering Exhibition about 20 odd years ago and if my memory serves me correctly you had to buy the basic machine and add things like the motor etc.

Justin in Montreal, I think that most people go the lathe route first simply because it seems the logical place to start only having 2 axes X longitudinal and Y front to back. A milling machine has a Z axis (vertical) also to contend with. Having said that it very much depends on what sort of things one wants to make from the outset that will determine which machine to go for.

As modellers there are many different small machines available to us like miniature lathes. milling machines,  circular saws. fretsaws. wood lathes. routers,  thicknessers etc. Have a look on Proxxon's website to get an idea of their awesome  large range available. Having mentioned Proxxon before, and before somebody asks, I have no connection with that company. It is just that they have a very comprehensive range of miniature machine tools especially designed with model makers in mind. Don't take my word for it. Just have a look for yourself.

Dremel also have a range of accessories to make their tools more adaptable. One that comes to mind is an adapter to make the Dremel tool into a miniature router, so some of theirs may be worth a look if you already have a Dremel. Their tools seem to come and go over here in the UK. but I understand that they are a mainstay hobby power tool and very popular in the US. I bought one some time a go over here and it is a good bit of kit.

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I bought the lathe because I knew there were certain things I wanted to do with it.  To me a mill is secondary although I use my small drill press and a cross slide for that purpose on a limited basis.  Just a question of what sort of things need to be made for what we do as modelers.

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I found this little machine by accident and I love the concept as well as how well it is made.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/nora/  Click the link to see much more of this very versatile machine.  It is so neat I may make casting patterns for it after I make a CAD model.

This is the parent website. http://www.lathes.co.uk/index.html  If you like machines bookmark this one.

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Edited by Flat32
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Raymond, I looked at that fantastic precision milling and drilling machine. Very impressive. Very expensive also I would imagine if you could locate one.

Pat on Ontario, I looked at the Taig Machines website and used their UK distributor link. As I suspected the Peatol name came up so it is one and the same machine. I used to think that the machine was UK made and marketed abroad under the Taig  brand, or alternatively manufactured in the UK under licence..The site shows the USA manufacturing facility..Looking at the machine itself and it's accessories  it appears to be of very high quality. Some of the unique features of the tail stock look very different to the Unimat and Sherline's more conventional ones.

There is a company named Warco in the UK that supplies Chinese made machinery to schools erc. But I do not know if they have any miniature lathes or mills for sale.

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18 hours ago, Chariots of Fire said:

I'm glad to see so many doing things with a lathe.  What a great tool it is.  That and learning a bit about soldering small parts has made a big difference in how I approach my scratch building.  Another material I found was Renshape.  It is good not only for making patterns to cast from but it is great stuff to carve.  With no grain it is strong in every direction.  And when it is milled there is no fuzz around the edges of the cut.  I was very fortunate a couple of years ago to be able to purchase a 2" x 4' x 24" block of the 450 grade for very little $$.  Oh.  And it takes primer and paint with no problems.

here is an example, the rear fenders were made with Renshape.

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