Who can print me truly factory-quality waterslide decals?

[peteski]

David, MS Paint was not designed as a precision drawing program.  It has very limited capabilities.  Trust me, it is much easier to use tools designed for the job.  As others mentioned there is a good freeware vector-based program called Inkscape.  But if you need to use bitmaps, there is a good freeware bitmap editor called Gimp.  In Gimp you can save your drawing in any format, and it will preserve the actual dimensions.  It also has rulers and guide lines you can set up to help you with the designs.

I also agree that keeping track of dimensions is vital for precision  modeling.  As a long time modeler, and also as someone who has designed and printed many custom decals on my Alps printer, I understand that completely.  That is exactly why I use tools such as Corel Draw and Corel PhotoPaint.  If you are interested in getting good results, I highly recommend to ditch MS Paint, and use a better drawing program.  They are not that difficult to learn. Even I only use a small percentage of Corel's capabilities, but trust me, it makes the design process so much easier.

As for taking measurements, steel ruler is good, but even better is a digital caliper. I own few of those, and just like my drawing programs, I find the calipers indispensable in my hobby.

Good luck with your project!

Edited December 10, 2020 by peteski

[CabDriver]

Having someone make a vector of your art is absolutely the way to go - I don’t think the original decal manufacturer was at fault here.  

Supplying an Illustrator file to the printer might be useful too, so they can easily isolate the layers and colors for production purposes

[Bills72sj]

I have had some success with inkjet water slide decals on both white and clear papers. Inkjets have their limitations on colors such as no gold, silver or printed white.

I have used bmp files in MS paint to produce them. The key is to start with the largest size of art you can get then reduce the "PRINT" size NOT the file size. Many of the decals I printed out were printed as small as 3% of the original artwork. This really helps with the crispness and resolution. My inkjet printer does ok because the ink flows together ever so slightly before it dries minimizing the dot effect. Below are examples of waterslides used for my recently completed diorama.

 

[Dave Van]

2 hours ago, Casey said:

This is the company Round2 and Revell (sometimes) use for their decals: http://www.cartograf.eu/

GREAT work....but they will require 300-400 sheets......over $2000.

[Dave Van]

 

2 hours ago, Casey said:

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Dave Van

[peteski]

Yes Bill, MS paint works, but it is a hassle. And then you have to print at some unknown percentage to get the right size.  Proper tools for the job not only allow you working in correct scale, they have lots of features that make drawing artwork easier.  Rulers, guide-lines, ability to work in layers, all make the design process much easier. And such tools are free, and the learning curve is not that steep. You can start using Gimp similarly to MS Pain, then as you dive deeper into the program's features, you can start using all sorts of tools to make your job easier.  You can first crawl before walking or then running.  But I can guarantee that it will cut your design time, and will make it much easier than working in MS Paint.

 

Here is a snippet of one of my designs.  I took a photo of the real sign, then utilizing layers created the artwork for making a scale sign in N scale (1:160).  The tiny sign on the lower right is drawn actual size for N scale.  While this is Corel Draw, Photo Paint or the other free drawing programs all have similar capabilities.

This drawing is a "scratchpad". For the final artwork I take the final design (in this case the small image on the lower rigth) and use that to make the print-ready artwork (in a separate file).

[Straightliner59]

I made most of the major decals, for all of these models on an inkjet. My first attempt was the fender markings on the Chevy II. I am not happy, with them. The door decals on that car were made three years ago, when I finished the car. I had learned enough, by then, to create much nicer markings. I draw mine using PhotoImpact Pro 13. I paid less than $100 for it. It does vectors, and pretty much anything PhotoShop will do. I've tried both Inkscape and Gimp. Both are excellent! I would use them, if I hadn't learned PhotoImpact, first. Once you've learned some stuff, you can make some very nice decals with an inkjet printer.

[Bills72sj]

2 hours ago, peteski said:

Yes Bill, MS paint works, but it is a hassle. And then you have to print at some unknown percentage to get the right size.  Proper tools for the job not only allow you working in correct scale, they have lots of features that make drawing artwork easier.  Rulers, guide-lines, ability to work in layers, all make the design process much easier. And such tools are free, and the learning curve is not that steep. You can start using Gimp similarly to MS Pain, then as you dive deeper into the program's features, you can start using all sorts of tools to make your job easier.  You can first crawl before walking or then running.  But I can guarantee that it will cut your design time, and will make it much easier than working in MS Paint.

 

Here is a snippet of one of my designs.  I took a photo of the real sign, then utilizing layers created the artwork for making a scale sign in N scale (1:160).  The tiny sign on the lower right is drawn actual size for N scale.  While this is Corel Draw, Photo Paint or the other free drawing programs all have similar capabilities.

This drawing is a "scratchpad". For the final artwork I take the final design (in this case the small image on the lower right) and use that to make the print-ready artwork (in a separate file).

 

Thank you for the feedback. Yes MS Paint is quite the time consuming pain for creating artwork. It was just the best functioning program I had to make good quality decals from already existing art. Below is the only artwork that I made from scratch. Much of it was done the hard way pixel by pixel.

[peteski]

2 hours ago, Bills72sj said:

Thank you for the feedback. Yes MS Paint is quite the time consuming pain for creating artwork. It was just the best functioning program I had to make good quality decals from already existing art. Below is the only artwork that I made from scratch. Much of it was done the hard way pixel by pixel.

Yes, pixel-by-pixel is how you often end up doing things in MS Paint.  The decals you show in the photo are very nice. I bet it took many  hours to draw that artwork.

BTW, thanks for trimming the image when you quoted my reply. It makes for less scrolling and seeing the same image over and over. I wish more people would do that.

 

Daniel: your decals look great too!

Edited December 10, 2020 by peteski

[Plumcrazy Preston]

Here is my latest artwork for decals. I now have the damm thing reduced pixel by pixel to three and only three spot colors: black, white and metallic silver. It is BMP at 300-dpi. It is exactly 8"x10". 

It has a Plum Crazy background that somebody needs to remove to make transparent. 

Now the fun will be finding the right vectorizer company who can make the damm thing 100% perfect for the nitpicking ALPS decal printer service. This set is for my Kenworth W-925 truck tractor at 1:25 scale and two future aircraft models: a Boeing 727-100 jet plane at 1:96 scale and a Bell 205 (civilian Huey) helicopter at 1:48 scale. The commercial aircraft made private aircraft are to get the same purple custom paint treatment.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Plumcrazy Preston

[peteski]

You will have to let the decal maker know that you need metallic silver (not a light gray color). Are the airliner windows also metallic silver?

Edited December 10, 2020 by peteski

[Plumcrazy Preston]

5 hours ago, peteski said:

You will have to let the decal maker know that you need metallic silver (not a light gray color). Are the airliner windows also metallic silver?

This decal maker is very finicky and offers a limited number of spot colors for ALPS production:

https://www.kadee.com/custom.htm

They offer metallic silver but not any other kind of gray. I have to pick the closest spot color that will work. They claim they don't do half tones or grey scale. It seems as there are many compromises and limitations to decal printing even though man has been put on the moon 51 years ago. I have to get my artwork to conform strictly to what the printer can do and is willing to do. Since I have white graphics, I need ALPS. 

 

 

[Straightliner59]

6 hours ago, peteski said:

Daniel: your decals look great too!

Thank you, kind sir!

[camaro69]

Hi David,

here´s a decal sheet I already have drawn for another member here. Printing costs were 12,50 € for a sheet of DIN A5. I think they are laser printed so you have to clearcote them after appliyng but as you can see white, grey and silver isn´t a problem.

 

And here a sample of yours. On the left your last BMP - on the right a screenshot of my vector drawing out of your avatar.

 

Rico

Edited December 10, 2020 by camaro69

[Erik Smith]

4 hours ago, camaro69 said:

I think they are laser printed so you have to clearcote them after appliyng but as you can see white, grey and silver isn´t a problem.

A laser can print white? I had no idea. 
That sheet looks very well done! Can you share the source? 

[Plumcrazy Preston]

Thanks, Rico.

 

The trouble I'm having now is finding the right "decal printer". I tried Kadee and they are giving me a bunch of krap. 

 

1. they won't print decals with BOEING or KENWORTH on them because of copyright/trademark issues. They told me I have to get permission from Boeing and Kenworth 

2. they say that I have to use two heavy coats of MicroScale Liquid Decal Film over their decals before applying clearcoat paint so ink won't dissolve According to them, after such application, my decals "should" be safe for clear gloss paint

 

I emailed Firebird Designs and I'm still awaiting a reply. I asked Josh Muma at Bedlam Creations again by email if he can print me a vectorized decal sheet in three spot colors: black, white silver (or gray). My first job with him flopped but I used a PNG with oddball non-spot colors. At least he did not have a copyright issue with BOEING and KENWORTH. 

 

This who decal thing is becoming some nightmare for me. maybe I should have stuck with game simulators as a hobby. I have several hundred dollars now invested in paints, supplies and model kits. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Plumcrazy Preston

[Plumcrazy Preston]

4 hours ago, camaro69 said:

Hi David,

here´s a decal sheet I already have drawn for another member here. Printing costs were 12,50 € for a sheet of DIN A5. I think they are laser printed so you have to clearcote them after appliyng but as you can see white, grey and silver isn´t a problem.

 

And here a sample of yours. On the left your last BMP - on the right a screenshot of my vector drawing out of your avatar.

 

Rico

Very nice, Rico!! I'm impressed.

 

I'm trying to find the right decal printing firm now. They seem to have specific requirements like:

1. CMYK or Pantone?

2. spot colors with or without halftones?

3. file format options they accept like: versions of Corel Draw, Adobe Illustrator or PDF 

 

Some decal printer websites claim they can only print ALPS in certain spot colors and that they don't do greyscale or halftones. 

 

Can you provide Pantone color codes for me? What version of Vector software do you use?

Can you make the artwork image file exact dimensions like 10" x 8"? 

 

Regardless of the printing method used, my decals have to be protected once applied to the models. I would prefer to paint over with clearcote as long as decal inks aren't hurt.

 

Does MicroScale really prepare the decal for clear painting well?  

The applied decals have to withstand periodic dusting with paint brushes and detailing the dirty models with distilled water. They have to be waterproof once model is fully completed. 

They can't peel or fade. I see no better durable protection than with clear paint. After all, Harley-Davidson tank decals are sealed by clearcote. The motorcycles do have to be washed and waxed after all. 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Plumcrazy Preston

[Plumcrazy Preston]

Kadee says they can't print KENWORTH or BOEING art without permission from KENWORTH and BOEING.  I modified the KENWORTH logos to KENWORTHY and BOEING to INBOEING and resubmitted it to them for review. I'm now awaiting an answer. I have a feeling this Kadee outfit is not ideal for car modelers who probably do use a lot of trademarks. Think of all the trademarks on a model racer. 

The spelling corrections for KENWORTH and BOEING decals can be easily made with my hobby knife if they insist upon being so damm anal. 

[Plumcrazy Preston]

15 hours ago, peteski said:

You will have to let the decal maker know that you need metallic silver (not a light gray color). Are the airliner windows also metallic silver?

Kadee had an image of their spot colors on their webpage. I took a screenshot and use the color grabber tool for the metallic silver swatch in Paint. I don't know if Paint renders colors to exact code though. It's only an approximation. There is no other spot color ideal for window panes on the aircraft. Airplane windows in factory decals generally have some tone of gray and the silver metallic at Kadee was the only thing close enough. 

 

I have to give the color codes to the company that does the vector work. 

[peteski]

I'm pretty sure that Kadee uses Alps printer, so they will have similar limitations as all other the cottage decal manufacturers (majority of which also use Alps printers).

If you bothered to read through the website with Alps printing tutorial (I pointed to earlier in this thread), you would see several Alps color charts shown there.  These are not Pantone, but simply combination of Alps inks printed in spot color overlay mode.  Since those color charts were done, Elephant Rocket (yes, that is a company name) in Japan has introduced a whole new range of ink ribbons with spot colors, so the range of available non-dithered colors Alps can print has increased quite a bit.

Well educated decal makers who use Alps do not want to print halftones, because Alps does a terrible job with halftones, but it gives excellent results with spot colors.

Not sure about your question about Microscale decals and clear.  The print decals using silk-screening process, and custom blended color inks (also no halftones).  Those inks are very durable and will not run when clear-coated, even with hot paints.

 

I also do not understand you so concerned about the 8" x 10" size of the decal sheet.  What you should be paying attention is the proper sizing of the images on the sheet itself.  Vector format preserves the sizes of the objects, so regardless of what size sheet they are printed on, they will retain correct  size.  The margins might change, but the  images will always have the correct size.  Again, another reason to work in vectors.  But even with bitmaps, if you use a more advanced bitmap editor, you can change the paper size without changing the size of the images on that artwork.

We are all trying to help you here, but I'm not sure how much you are accepting. Maybe you should have stuck with game simulators after all. 

I'm also curious about Preston American Original. I did a quick Google search and didn't come up with anything useful.  Is that a fantasy scheme?

[peteski]

56 minutes ago, Plumcrazy Preston said:

Kadee had an image of their spot colors on their webpage. I took a screenshot and use the color grabber tool for the metallic silver swatch in Paint. I don't know if Paint renders colors to exact code though. It's only an approximation. There is no other spot color ideal for window panes on the aircraft. Airplane windows in factory decals generally have some tone of gray and the silver metallic at Kadee was the only thing close enough. 

 

I have to give the color codes to the company that does the vector work. 

The Metallic-silver Alps pints looks just  like silver paint. Depending on the viewing angle, just like silver paint, it will l look darker or lighter.  I'm not sure if that will look good as window, but I could be wrong.   Gray can be accomplished on Alps by printing a layer of white ink over black ink, but not all Alps printers are capable of that. It is a complicated story.  There are now also several opaque gray inks (spot colors) available from Elephant Rocket, but I'm not sure if the decal makers use those inks.  They have to be ordered directly from Elephant Rocket in Japan.

[Dave Van]

1 hour ago, Plumcrazy Preston said:

Kadee says they can't print KENWORTH or BOEING art without permission from KENWORTH and BOEING.  I modified the KENWORTH logos to KENWORTHY and BOEING to INBOEING and resubmitted it to them for review. I'm now awaiting an answer. I have a feeling this Kadee outfit is not ideal for car modelers who probably do use a lot of trademarks. Think of all the trademarks on a model racer. 

The spelling corrections for KENWORTH and BOEING decals can be easily made with my hobby knife if they insist upon being so damm anal. 

When I did the decal art for a Model King kit to make sure no issues I made the decal 'TRUXS   ADMORE' rather than 'TRUXMORE' which is a brand.....there are ways! 

[Plumcrazy Preston]

49 minutes ago, peteski said:

I'm pretty sure that Kadee uses Alps printer, so they will have similar limitations as all other the cottage decal manufacturers (majority of which also use Alps printers).

If you bothered to read through the website with Alps printing tutorial (I pointed to earlier in this thread), you would see several Alps color charts shown there.  These are not Pantone, but simply combination of Alps inks printed in spot color overlay mode.  Since those color charts were done, Elephant Rocket (yes, that is a company name) in Japan has introduced a whole new range of ink ribbons with spot colors, so the range of available non-dithered colors Alps can print has increased quite a bit.

Well educated decal makers who use Alps do not want to print halftones, because Alps does a terrible job with halftones, but it gives excellent results with spot colors.

Not sure about your question about Microscale decals and clear.  The print decals using silk-screening process, and custom blended color inks (also no halftones).  Those inks are very durable and will not run when clear-coated, even with hot paints.

 

I also do not understand you so concerned about the 8" x 10" size of the decal sheet.  What you should be paying attention is the proper sizing of the images on the sheet itself.  Vector format preserves the sizes of the objects, so regardless of what size sheet they are printed on, they will retain correct  size.  The margins might change, but the  images will always have the correct size.  Again, another reason to work in vectors.  But even with bitmaps, if you use a more advanced bitmap editor, you can change the paper size without changing the size of the images on that artwork.

We are all trying to help you here, but I'm not sure how much you are accepting. Maybe you should have stuck with game simulators after all. 

I'm also curious about Preston American Original. I did a quick Google search and didn't come up with anything useful.  Is that a fantasy scheme?

If you bothered to read through the website, I was too busy doing other things today, emailing vendors and asking questions

Not sure about your question about Microscale decals and clear, Kaydee said the ALPS decals will be ruined if sprayed with clear coat paint UNLESS measures are taken by using some product they call MicroScale Liquid Decal Film, whatever that is, you know as much about it as I do

Kaydee wants an artwork file in that size. If the entire file dimensions are changed as by converting BMP to certain file formats as PNG or TIFF, then each and every art object will change size.  I want to make sure any vectorizing and printing company I use keeps everything the same size as originally drawn by me in BMP. You have to realize I don't know sheyit about doing vector work. I know if I convert a BMP to TIFF or PNG, everything gets blown up automatically about threefold. 

 

American Original is the name of my fantasy aircraft the decals are slated to be applied to. Some men might name their personal airplanes SPIRIT OF ST. LOUIS, the SPRUCE GOOSE or the IRON DUCK. I named mine AMERICAN ORIGINAL. Building a model airplane with custom paint fulfills the fantasy of owning a full-size jet plane I will never be able to afford. Can you afford a full-size Boeing 727? PRESTON is the name of the fictitious trucking company I will never own either. That's why I have it as the door logo for my truck. AMERICAN ORIGINAL is also the name given to Bell 205 helicopter model. The decal sheet if for three separate models with same paint theme. Plum Crazy is my fantasy color for these scale models of rich boys' toys. 

I appreciate the help folks are giving here but I'm a slow learner sometimes so you will all have to slow down and be patient with me. I'm under a lot of stress about this whole stupid decal thing. I bought several hundred dollars worth of scale model kits, paint and etc. and can't return that stuff. Without acceptable decals, my whole thing will be a boondoggle. When I started this hobby not long ago, I really thought the whole custom decal thing would be a cakewalk with all this advanced technology we are supposed to have in the 21st century. I was 5 years old when Neil Armstrong walked on the moon 51 year ago, for goodness sake! Why can't some decal vendor just make everything simple and in plain English for the customer? You know like HONDA, We Make It Simple. I'm finding this hobby now quite frustrating indeed. I should have done a lot of decal research before diving into this thing too deep. Who would have dreamed about the trademark issue? 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Plumcrazy Preston

[Plumcrazy Preston]

12 minutes ago, Dave Van said:

When I did the decal art for a Model King kit to make sure no issues I made the decal 'TRUXS   ADMORE' rather than 'TRUXMORE' which is a brand.....there are ways! 

I'll see if KENWORTHY and INBOEING cuts it, no pun intended, with Kaydee. It's easier and neater to cut off part of a decal with an Xacto than piece two separate decals together. I think like a machinist, making things by subtracting material rather than by adding it. ?

[peteski]

David,
What is the big rush?  What you are doing is a hobby - it is a pleasure activity which is supposed to provide fun, not stress.  Relax, take your time. Unless of course you have limited number of days here on this third rock from the Sun.  As I see it, is you rather than us, who is trying to rush things.  There is a lot to learn, and you need to start with basics.

As for why it seems so difficult to get custom decals produced, it is because no company has produced an affordable printer with capabilities similar to what those Alps printers can do.  Why?  Simple: the market for such specialized printer is not large enough for the venture to be profitable.  It is always about the money.  And just like with other parts of our hobby, in order to get good at something, you need to acquire the skills and tools to do a quality job.  You can complain all you want, but that will not make things any better, or provide a faster solution.

If you are impatient, the models will not turn out well.  Again, this is a hobby, not a high stress job.  Trust me, you will not become really proficient modeler in few days.  I have never met any modeler who turned contest quality models right after he picked up model-building as a hobby.  You really should not expect everything to just instantly fall into place.   You need to be patient (and gain experience).  I still recommend you upgrade to something more advanced than MS Paint.  I'm speaking from experience here.

I have been building models since pre-teens, and I'm now only few years your senior. I have been using Corel Draw (in my hobbies) for about 30 years, and Alps printer for about 20 years.  I quite comfortable with both, but I still have things to learn.  By the same token, you can't just jump into this whole home-brewed custom-decal making process and become an expert in few days without doing some in-dept research (and follow the advice you asked for).

Also, often if you want something done rigth (and fast), you have to do it yourself.  I dint' want to deal with outside decal vendors - I wanted to print my decals in my workshop, rigth after I created the artwork. That is why I invested in my Alps printer. I just do the decals myself.  But there was a learning process involved, and I'm still discovering things that improve my skills.

There are ink jet printers out there which use UV-cured inks that can print directly on the models (and can do white inks), but they are very expensive commercial printers.  There are also 3D printers which can use multiple colors of resin while printing the model, so the model comes out with all the decoration already on it (not decals needed). But in either way, there is a learning curve involved. No instant gratification.

 

Thanks for the explanation abotu your fantasy scheme - I like it!

Edited December 11, 2020 by peteski