Rustoleum 2X Over a Multi-Media Finish

[old gearhead]

OK.  I've been building for just about 50 years and have made every mistake in regard to the finishing of model car bodies imaginable.  However, experience tells me that despite my in-depth knowledge of paint (lacquer vis-a-vis enamel vis-a-vis acrylic, and all that), stuff can still happen.

So.  I'm about to try a product I've never used before.

I have an MFH Ferrari '58 250TR that needs a clear coat.  Primer is Tamiya TS white primer over TS light grey primer with a color coat of TS Chrome Yellow.  No worries there, I would just normally use TS13 to clear and polish.  But, I just spent a lot of time masking and then airbrushing Testors Dark Red enamel racing stripes onto that body, and then applying white decal-paper roundels on top of all that.

My go-to in this case would be a Testors gloss enamel clear to be on the safe side, but that seems to have become extinct (and, it yellows, despite what Donn Yost says.  Right out of the can).  I tried misting, and then wet-coating, TS-13 onto a scrapped body with a Scalefinishes enamel finish to which I applied a swatch of the Testors Dark Red enamel and a spare white decal paper roundel.  As I expected, the TS13 lifted the enamel on the wet coat (the Scalefinishes and the Testors were attacked, however I could swear I've used TS13 over Scalefinishes paint without adverse affects), however it had no effect on the decal, which I also expected seeing as how I seal my home-made decals with healthy doses of acrylic lacquer, as is recommended by the manufacturer.

I read about, and saw, the finish Chris from the "Space Coast" (I assume you're in FLA, Chris) achieved using the Rustoleum 2X Clear Gloss.  Chris figures it's an enamel in as that clean up calls for mineral spirits, said it goes on real nice, it obviously polishes out well, etc.  So, I figured, what the hell?  Let's give it a try!

Of course, I will do a test before I use the 2X on my TR.  My questions is: are there any red flags about this clear that I should be aware of?  I don't mind stripping a body and starting from zero, but I've put a lot of time into this particular car and, frankly, I'm getting old and impatient and have a lot of other projects to attend to.  I'd really hate for this one to fail.

Thanks in advance.

PB.

   

  

[old gearhead]

Sorry about the double-post.  I don't know how I managed that. 

Well, never mind anyway.  I answered my own question.  I tried the Rustoleum 2X on my test body and it looks (and smells) to be an acrylic lacquer.  Hot as hell.  It even burned through the TS13 that I applied earlier and crinkled up the enamel that was beneath the TS13.  Oh, well.  It does say "non-yellowing" on the can, so that should've provided a clue (most enamels yellow).

I guess I'll go with a pure acrylic gloss (Future).  Not sure how that'll polish out, though. 

[CabDriver]

Future doesn’t polish out well AT ALL in my experience (although I’ve seen good results with it in instances where people haven’t needed to polish out at all.)

I like Createx acrylic gloss clear as a non-yellowing easy-to-apply option for when I’m worried about solvents affecting what I’m shooting it over.  Polishes out nicely too, once fully cured…

Edited September 25, 2021 by CabDriver

[moparfarmer]

You could try Duplicolor Acrylic Enamel (tall black label)  It does smell like lacquer but I've used it over enamel and its okay..Polishes up nicely too..Auto parts stores usually carry Duplicolor..

[espo]

With the time and effort you have put into this model I would suggest trying some plastic picnic spoons. Paint the spoons in the same manor as your model and see what happens when you try your new clear paint. Better to mess up a cheap spoon than have to redo your whole model. 

[Dave G.]

Tamiya X-22 should go over all that and it buffs up well. If not then Liquitex varnish will.

[jchrisf]

20 hours ago, old gearhead said:

OK.  I've been building for just about 50 years and have made every mistake in regard to the finishing of model car bodies imaginable.  However, experience tells me that despite my in-depth knowledge of paint (lacquer vis-a-vis enamel vis-a-vis acrylic, and all that), stuff can still happen.

So.  I'm about to try a product I've never used before.

I have an MFH Ferrari '58 250TR that needs a clear coat.  Primer is Tamiya TS white primer over TS light grey primer with a color coat of TS Chrome Yellow.  No worries there, I would just normally use TS13 to clear and polish.  But, I just spent a lot of time masking and then airbrushing Testors Dark Red enamel racing stripes onto that body, and then applying white decal-paper roundels on top of all that.

My go-to in this case would be a Testors gloss enamel clear to be on the safe side, but that seems to have become extinct (and, it yellows, despite what Donn Yost says.  Right out of the can).  I tried misting, and then wet-coating, TS-13 onto a scrapped body with a Scalefinishes enamel finish to which I applied a swatch of the Testors Dark Red enamel and a spare white decal paper roundel.  As I expected, the TS13 lifted the enamel on the wet coat (the Scalefinishes and the Testors were attacked, however I could swear I've used TS13 over Scalefinishes paint without adverse affects), however it had no effect on the decal, which I also expected seeing as how I seal my home-made decals with healthy doses of acrylic lacquer, as is recommended by the manufacturer.

I read about, and saw, the finish Chris from the "Space Coast" (I assume you're in FLA, Chris) achieved using the Rustoleum 2X Clear Gloss.  Chris figures it's an enamel in as that clean up calls for mineral spirits, said it goes on real nice, it obviously polishes out well, etc.  So, I figured, what the hell?  Let's give it a try!

Of course, I will do a test before I use the 2X on my TR.  My questions is: are there any red flags about this clear that I should be aware of?  I don't mind stripping a body and starting from zero, but I've put a lot of time into this particular car and, frankly, I'm getting old and impatient and have a lot of other projects to attend to.  I'd really hate for this one to fail.

Thanks in advance.

PB.

   

  

Paul I painted mine with their 2X Primer and 2X Black Matte.  I haven't cleared over decals in a while.  The last time I did was with Tamiya clear and it ate my decals.  I used some Duplicolor clear and it ate my decals as well.  I'll have to try this over decals sometime and see how it goes.

[old gearhead]

Thanks for all of the replies and input!

Yeah, the Future doesn't hold up to buffing at all.  I think I'll probably go with the Tamiya X-22.  I have plenty of that laying around.

David, I tested the clears on a spare-parts body that I painted and decaled like the Ferrari.

Chris, that makes sense, then.  You'll never have issues with lacquer on lacquer.  And, yeah, I was surprised that the 2X didn't eat up the decal.  I expected it to.  Then again, the decal did have a coat of TS-13 over it (which the 2X attacked).  Then again, I seal the decal paper (it's inkjet paper) with several coats of Krylon Crystal Clear, which is what the manufacturer recommends, and I believe it is acrylic lacquer.  Certainly smells like it.  These decals weren't sealed, though in as that I hadn't printed anything on them.

Jim, yup, the Createx is another viable option.  

Thanks again for all of the suggestions, everyone!  I'll post the results.

BTW, I did another search for the Testors clear enamel.  Not a trace of the stuff in stock anywhere.  I know Rustoleum discontinued the Model Master paints, but did they do away with Testors products altogether?  I'd hate to see the 1/4 ounce jars go away.  

PB.  

[old gearhead]

On 9/24/2021 at 12:12 PM, Dave G. said:

Tamiya X-22 should go over all that and it buffs up well. If not then Liquitex varnish will.

Dave, I went ahead and cleared (four applications) with the Tamiya X-22 and it went on fine.  The last (wet) coat was applied three days ago and the X-22 still feels "soft," i.e. I would not be comfortable buffing it out in this state.  Do you suppose it'll harden up over time?  Would a dehydrator help?  Or, would a dehydrator even have an effect on an acrylic clear coat?  Then again, the finish would be acceptable as is, but that's not he way I roll; I want it smooth and shiny...  

Funny, I use Tamiya acrylics on most of my (non-metallic finish) aircraft builds and the colors (albeit mostly XFs, but not all) seem to dry hard as a rock  Then again, I only gloss clear the aircraft for decal application (so, no buffing) and then go back over with Microlux clear flat (the flattest flat I've been able to find thus far) to seal everything up.

Aarrgh!  I've been building for centuries!  Still no easy answers!

Thanks in advance1

PB.

[Dave G.]

39 minutes ago, old gearhead said:

Dave, I went ahead and cleared (four applications) with the Tamiya X-22 and it went on fine.  The last (wet) coat was applied three days ago and the X-22 still feels "soft," i.e. I would not be comfortable buffing it out in this state.  Do you suppose it'll harden up over time?  Would a dehydrator help?  Or, would a dehydrator even have an effect on an acrylic clear coat?  Then again, the finish would be acceptable as is, but that's not he way I roll; I want it smooth and shiny...  

Funny, I use Tamiya acrylics on most of my (non-metallic finish) aircraft builds and the colors (albeit mostly XFs, but not all) seem to dry hard as a rock  Then again, I only gloss clear the aircraft for decal application (so, no buffing) and then go back over with Microlux clear flat (the flattest flat I've been able to find thus far) to seal everything up.

Aarrgh!  I've been building for centuries!  Still no easy answers!

Thanks in advance1

PB.

I don't have a straight answer on air dry times because I always do a 30 minute blast in the dehydrator to jump start the dry, which to me if anything increases gloss ( at least on color coats anyway). Also I tend to use either lacquer thinner or DNA to thin with Tamiya acrylics with to include X-22. I can generally polish by the third day. It should eventually harden though but I haven't experienced your situation personally. I do very little sanding for polishing, go to Colgate toothpaste, then Formula 1 Scratch out. I'm happy with the finish for the era cars I build is best I can say.

Maybe be glad its taking it's time with that combo of paints and decals under it, perhaps less chance of something wrinkling on you.

[wayne00]

On 9/25/2021 at 11:09 AM, old gearhead said:

  And, yeah, I was surprised that the 2X didn't eat up the decal.  I expected it to.  

PB.  

O.K. You guys have me scared now!!!!

On my current BRBO build I am using the 2X gloss clear (first pic).

I used it on the fenders and rear panel (second pic).

I haven't put any clear on the cab parts yet.

The color coat is Duplicolor Perfect Match over Rust-oleum 2 in 1 gray primer.

Now I'm afraid that the 2X Gloss will eat the decals, I did use 2X satin and semi-gloss on the trailer with no ill effects to the decals.

So do I have anything to worry ABOUT???

Thanks

   Rog😁

P.S. All of the decals I am using are from Modeltruckin. I have already had to order a 2nd set because of my mistake and I don't want have do a 3rd.

 

[old gearhead]

5 hours ago, wayne00 said:

O.K. You guys have me scared now!!!!

On my current BRBO build I am using the 2X gloss clear (first pic).

I used it on the fenders and rear panel (second pic).

I haven't put any clear on the cab parts yet.

The color coat is Duplicolor Perfect Match over Rust-oleum 2 in 1 gray primer.

Now I'm afraid that the 2X Gloss will eat the decals, I did use 2X satin and semi-gloss on the trailer with no ill effects to the decals.

So do I have anything to worry ABOUT???

Thanks

   Rog😁

P.S. All of the decals I am using are from Modeltruckin. I have already had to order a 2nd set because of my mistake and I don't want have do a 3rd.

 

Maybe you should do the spoon test as Espo (David) suggests.  When I tested 2X on a spare car body, it didn't attack the decal I applied per se, but, as I mentioned, the test enamel and decal had a coat of TS-13 over them.  The TS-13 attacked the (Testors) enamel but had no effect on the decal.  The X2 attacked the TS-13 and really burned into the enamel that was under the TS-13.  I can't say if the 2X affected the decal under the circumstances in which I tested it, although I do spray my inkjet decal paper with an acrylic lacquer (Krylon) to seal the decals without harm.  Paint-wise, it looks like you're OK with the X2 because you're dealing with lacquer-on-lacquer, but I would test the X2 over some spare/scrap decals, for sure. 

[old gearhead]

On 10/1/2021 at 6:55 PM, Dave G. said:

I don't have a straight answer on air dry times because I always do a 30 minute blast in the dehydrator to jump start the dry, which to me if anything increases gloss ( at least on color coats anyway). Also I tend to use either lacquer thinner or DNA to thin with Tamiya acrylics with to include X-22. I can generally polish by the third day. It should eventually harden though but I haven't experienced your situation personally. I do very little sanding for polishing, go to Colgate toothpaste, then Formula 1 Scratch out. I'm happy with the finish for the era cars I build is best I can say.

Maybe be glad its taking it's time with that combo of paints and decals under it, perhaps less chance of something wrinkling on you.

Thanks, Dave.  I've been thinking about getting a dehydrator in as that I still spray a lot of enamel.  What the heck, I doubt it'll hurt to try a dehydrator on the X-22 cleared Ferrari, although it is starting to harden up on its own.  And, yeah, I considered just going with toothpaste for the initial buffing, however I've got some orange peal and a few rough spots that need to be smoothed out and so am planning on a pass with 4000 through 12,000 grits, and then a final polish with Tamiya compounds followed by Novus 2 and then a carnauba wax job.  Might pass on the Novus 2, though; the Tamiya compounds do a pretty good job.

Interesting that you use lacquer thinner to thin an acrylic (X-22).  I use lacquer to thin enamel, but have never tried it with acrylics.  In your experience, how well does the DNA work with the Tamiya acrylics compared to Tamiya X20A?  Is there an advantage to using lacquer and DNA as an acrylic thinner?

Thanks again, and best regards.

PB.   

[Dave G.]

5 hours ago, old gearhead said:

Thanks, Dave.  I've been thinking about getting a dehydrator in as that I still spray a lot of enamel.  What the heck, I doubt it'll hurt to try a dehydrator on the X-22 cleared Ferrari, although it is starting to harden up on its own.  And, yeah, I considered just going with toothpaste for the initial buffing, however I've got some orange peal and a few rough spots that need to be smoothed out and so am planning on a pass with 4000 through 12,000 grits, and then a final polish with Tamiya compounds followed by Novus 2 and then a carnauba wax job.  Might pass on the Novus 2, though; the Tamiya compounds do a pretty good job.

Interesting that you use lacquer thinner to thin an acrylic (X-22).  I use lacquer to thin enamel, but have never tried it with acrylics.  In your experience, how well does the DNA work with the Tamiya acrylics compared to Tamiya X20A?  Is there an advantage to using lacquer and DNA as an acrylic thinner?

Thanks again, and best regards.

PB.   

I believe you will find that the X-20A has some retarder in it. Lacquer thinner dries faster, the colors on color coats are still very vivid ( very clear color no haze if that makes sense). LT won't work in all acrylics but it is suggested by Tamiya for their acrylics ( at their web site), they claim a harder finish. As to DNA, the paint flows like crazy when mixed 1/1 or more thinner. I like it especially in X-1 black as it gives a very natural factory looking black finish that just needs a light buffing to clear the color up a bit ( just offers some extra user control to get that finish we expect to see on a classic car for instance). With DNA it dries super smooth, the smoothest of all the thinners in X-1 black that I've tried. The buffing is just to pull up the gloss slightly. I'd still prefer Model Master Classic black that was made for this job but well, it's not around anymore so we move on right ? Make a way.

[old gearhead]

3 hours ago, Dave G. said:

I believe you will find that the X-20A has some retarder in it. Lacquer thinner dries faster, the colors on color coats are still very vivid ( very clear color no haze if that makes sense). LT won't work in all acrylics but it is suggested by Tamiya for their acrylics ( at their web site), they claim a harder finish. As to DNA, the paint flows like crazy when mixed 1/1 or more thinner. I like it especially in X-1 black as it gives a very natural factory looking black finish that just needs a light buffing to clear the color up a bit ( just offers some extra user control to get that finish we expect to see on a classic car for instance). With DNA it dries super smooth, the smoothest of all the thinners in X-1 black that I've tried. The buffing is just to pull up the gloss slightly. I'd still prefer Model Master Classic black that was made for this job but well, it's not around anymore so we move on right ? Make a way.

That I used X-20A may explain why my clear coat seems soft, then.  Dehydrator is on the way.  If that doesn't harden up the finish, so be it.  I tried, and I'll work with what I have.  I guess if had thinned the X-22 with DNA the finish would have dried harder.  Oh, well.  Yeah, and it is too bad that the Model Master enamels are gone.  Have you tried regular old Testors gloss black enamel thinned with LT?  I used that over Tamiya Light Grey primer for the chassis and fenders on a Vauxhall 38/90E (Southeast Finecast metal kit).  It went on real well, seems durable, and will not require a clear coat or extensive buffing.  I'll give the DNA with X-1 a try, however.  The acrylics are so much easier/quicker to clean up than the solvent-based paints, which I won't even run through an internal-mix brush.  Lacquers and enamels run through my Paasche H and the Iwata is reserved for acrylics.

Thanks again, and have a good day.  PB.    

[slusher]

Have you tried Testors one coat lacquer clear, now called extreme lacquer clear.  I have used it over Krylon enamel and Tamiya. It’s not a hot lacquer..

[old gearhead]

12 hours ago, slusher said:

Have you tried Testors one coat lacquer clear, now called extreme lacquer clear.  I have used it over Krylon enamel and Tamiya. It’s not a hot lacquer..

Only over Testors lacquer primer and color, many moons ago.  I'll spray enamel or acrylics over lacquer all day long, but I won't put lacquer over anything but lacquer.  Even the Testors enamel that I always thin with lacquer 1:1 crinkled up under TS-13, and that's a "mild" lacquer if I understand correctly.  And, that was a wet coat on top of three mist coats of the TS-13; the mist coats didn't affect the enamel at all, but the wet coat sure did!  Anyway, let's see how the X-22 buffs out after I harden it up in the dehydrator that's supposedly arriving tomorrow.

Thanks for the suggestion though, Carl!  Have a good evening.   

[Dave G.]

5 hours ago, old gearhead said:

 let's see how the X-22 buffs out after I harden it up in the dehydrator

I don't know if the dehydrator you're getting has temp control but I set mine around 108f with straight Tamiya acrylics.. Just FWIW. It may not matter so much but over 105 up to 108 is what I do with acrylics and 108-110 for enamels.. You may even want to go with 105f with your multi combo paints on there, it will still dry.

 

[old gearhead]

18 hours ago, Dave G. said:

I don't know if the dehydrator you're getting has temp control but I set mine around 108f with straight Tamiya acrylics.. Just FWIW. It may not matter so much but over 105 up to 108 is what I do with acrylics and 108-110 for enamels.. You may even want to go with 105f with your multi combo paints on there, it will still dry.

 

The dehydrator arrived today.  It has temp control and a timer.  I put the Ferrari in for 3 hours @ 113F, and then for another hour @ 122F (these are default temp settings).  It seems to have hardened up to the point that I'm game for buffing.  Funny, I don't know if you're familiar with MFH kits, but often (most times) they're resin bodies w/metal hoods and decklids.  The X-22 over paint seems to have dried much harder on the metal parts than on the resin body, even before I tried the dehydrator.  I'm wondering if the resin retains moisture, or has a chemical reaction, and affects drying(?).  Seems unlikely; I build a lot of resin and most paints behave normally on all types.  And, the Ferrari body is covered with applications of lacquer-based primers and color coat.  You'd think that would seal the deal.  Who knows?  I'm probably over-thinking this whole thing, now.  Getting crazy in my old age.  I'm just going to proceed to buff, polish and wax.  I'll post the results.

Have a good evening!

[peteski]

Sounds like you good good results.  I would however stay away from the 122 deg. temperature when drying resin parts. Some resins might be ok, while others might not do well at that temperature.  My dehydrator runs around 100-110, but I also dry the parts for 10 hours or more.

As far as the paint hardness goes, you are probably correct.  Resin, to begin with, is softer than metal, and there could also be some sort of chemical interaction between the resin and paint.

[Dave G.]

7 hours ago, old gearhead said:

The dehydrator arrived today.  It has temp control and a timer.  I put the Ferrari in for 3 hours @ 113F, and then for another hour @ 122F (these are default temp settings).  It seems to have hardened up to the point that I'm game for buffing.  Funny, I don't know if you're familiar with MFH kits, but often (most times) they're resin bodies w/metal hoods and decklids.  The X-22 over paint seems to have dried much harder on the metal parts than on the resin body, even before I tried the dehydrator.  I'm wondering if the resin retains moisture, or has a chemical reaction, and affects drying(?).  Seems unlikely; I build a lot of resin and most paints behave normally on all types.  And, the Ferrari body is covered with applications of lacquer-based primers and color coat.  You'd think that would seal the deal.  Who knows?  I'm probably over-thinking this whole thing, now.  Getting crazy in my old age.  I'm just going to proceed to buff, polish and wax.  I'll post the results.

Have a good evening!

Like Pete or similarly at least, I run dehydration between 105 and 110. 122 is getting up there, might be fine with enamel and the metal parts. It's not the heat alone that dries or cures the paint but the added air movement, especially with acrylics.

[old gearhead]

10 hours ago, Dave G. said:

Like Pete or similarly at least, I run dehydration between 105 and 110. 122 is getting up there, might be fine with enamel and the metal parts. It's not the heat alone that dries or cures the paint but the added air movement, especially with acrylics.

Yeah, if it was styrene I don't think I would've run it that high.  But resin seems to have a much higher tolerance to heat than styrene.  I know first-hand:  I had a fire obliterate my model room in 2009.  The plastic kits that were in my showcase curled right up.  There were resin cars in the same showcase parked right next to the plastic cars; they didn't even warp.  The paint bubbled and there was smoke damage, but that was "all."  Unfortunately, I had a substantial stash of resin kits stacked right above the fire source and they were incinerated, along with all of my plastic kits.

Anyway, I buffed the Ferrari tonight with the initial 4000 grit.  The finish flattened right out.  Orange peel and rough spots are gone.  No burn-throughs (yet).  I've always had an aversion to using acrylics for a gloss finish on my car bodies, but the X-22 is working out fine, so far.  If it polishes out well it'll become one of my go-tos for clearing, and I'll be more likely to use Tamiya acrylics for automotive color applications as well.  As the Tamiya bottle caps claim, and compared to the many brands of acrylics I've sprayed and brushed, they are indeed "Superb." 

Best regards.  PB. 

[Dave G.]

Well I used X-1 black on those 1/16 Model A fenders and they turned out fine with no clear coat. I did a 39 Ford sedan in a build off with another member, part of the criteria he set was the color coat had to be craft paint. I cleared that with X-22, minor sanding for polishing the rest was polishing compound, it polished up real nice to my eye so it became a keeper finish for me after that. I'm pretty sure you will like the results on yours.