An in-depth look at all the parts of a test shot of the upcoming Moebius 1965 Chevy II Gasser....

[Chuck Kourouklis]

Guys, I'm sorry.  This whole camera angle thing just doesn't wash.

Not when The Kit That Must Not Be Named looks chopped in preview pics and then months later looks just as chopped in your hands, in bare or painted plastic.  Not when fender arches are too flared, or drip moldings too low and flat, or headlight nacelles are too bug-eyed or a Chrysler roof is too crowned and a Nova roof is not near crowned enough and an E-Type follows a freakin' banana contour from front to rear - in the plastic just as much as in the jpeg.

HOW MANY TIMES does the in-hand production kit have to present exactly the way it did in previews before the hard facts finally drop that penny home - as if nobody is capable of accounting for camera angle in their comparisons to start with?

This Nova's drip moldings are low.  I promise you that unless the greenhouse is retooled, that's exactly the way the shell will look in your hands months from now.  

That is an OBJECTIVE observation.  It will be backed by hard math. Objective observations are not where a thread goes wrong. Where this thread went sideways is exactly where these things usually do, turning PERSONAL.

And this time there was crossfire, one side gunning at the other from this ridiculous, unending offense-taking over the mere mention of inaccuracies, the other firing at a veteran contributor they perceived to be a shill.

Both, demonstrably misguided.

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Chuck Kourouklis
Misinterpretation of Tim B's recommended correction

[Cool Hand]

    All hail !! the righteous ones have spoken  

Jokes aside, thank you very Tim for taking the time share this up and coming release.

Not much of gasser fan myself, but il most definitely be purchasing a couple of this kit. Looks to be a very fun build.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Cool Hand
grammar error

[GMP440]

  This arguing back and forth is doing nothing for this thread.  All that is happening is for this thread to get locked. Wait till you get the model in your hands, then decide for yourself.  

[Luc Janssens]

Mixed feelings about this one, 

Personally I think, that some of the critiques I've seen in this tread, should/could vanish if the design of a model kit starts, from scanning the skin of the "to be tooled" subject, others by design.

Maybe this tread can fuel a debate with the decision makers at Pegasus, to backup Dave by either invest new tech or hire a vendor to work with him on the 3D scan.

Anyway, do thanks Tim and Dave for contributing to this great hobby and for making this preview possible.

 

Cheers

Luc

 

[Classicgas]

I for one never attacked Tim. I even stated in my first response, "with all due respect to Tim and Dave Metzner".  The faults with the kit are not Tim's doing, and I appreciate his build up, and hope he does more. I still stand by it looks chopped to me, and I don't see removing plastic fixing that. It will be interesting to see Tim do that fix, and if it does improve it, cool. At that point I may consider buying it. I don't have a bottomless wallet for hobby stuff, actually pretty rarely I get a new kit, so I spend what I get judiciously, and this kit as it stands will not get my money. I'm hoping the stock one is a improvement. I'm not and never have been a rivet counter, but there are occasions where something just doesn't look right to my eye and this is one.

[Snake45]

1. Thanks to Tim for one of the best, most detailed reviews I've ever seen of ANY kit. 

2. I'll be buying at least two of these (and two of the stockers). If it turns out I can't live with the roof shape, I'll do something with them, perhaps kitbash the body somehow with the AMT AWB HT kit, which I have several of on hand. I'm still wondering why Moebius decided to kit the one-year-only '65 2DS roof instead of the far more common '62-'64 roof, but it is what it is. I'm gonna be taking a VERY close look at seeing if that '65 roof can be opened up to pass as the earlier type. I'm thinking the backlight might be a problem, as it looks like it might be a compound curve, which would mean carving a vac master. Ouch. (But to paraphrase a Montrose lyric, "If it can be done, I can do it."  )

3. Just for grins, last night I went on the great George Klass site and looked for First-Gen Chevy IIs. Now the GK site doesn't have EVERY drag car that ran in the '60s, but he's got a hella lot of them, and I believe that the site gives you a darn good idea of what was running on the strips 50-60 years ago, the good, the bad, and the ugly. 

In the Gasser section, I only saw two pre-'66 Novas. Neither was a '65 2DS (one was a HT). There were also two pre-'64 Ford Falcons, and one of them had an obvious chop (I've seen that car before in a mag article). Late-model (i.e., '60s) cars were not the mainstay of the Gasser class, earlier stuff was--up until Ohio George changed the game with his Mustang, but that's another story.  

Things were different in the FX section. Dozens and dozens of '62-'65 Chevy IIs and Novas, but out of all of them, I only saw two '65 2DSs. There were literally more 4-doors and cars with that goofy add-on fastback roof than '65 2DSs. Might have even been more station wagons (there was at least one). The majority of the Novas were either hardtops, or the '62-'64 2Ds. (I didn't notice any that were chopped.) AFAIK there were no "famous" FX '65 2DS, so it's not like you'll be building an "inaccurate" model of the Doug Thorley or Steve Bovan, etc., cars. Those were something different.

Do with that information what you will. I'll be buying at least two of these kits and doing SOMETHING with them. If someone tells me one looks chopped, I'll say, "Yah, it's chopped, so what? It's still hella cool." 

Model on, everyone!  

[bobthehobbyguy]

9 hours ago, CabDriver said:

Well, drama aside (and I REALLY hope this doesn’t scare Tim away from doing posts like this in the future) I love the way the finished kit built up!  I wanted one, and now I want a couple!  

Looking forward to seeing your second build of this kit, Tim!

I don't see Tim scared off but he certainly could have been treated with more respect for his great review of this kit by a few members. I wouldn't blame him if he had second thoughts about subjecting himself to that again.

On 9/27/2021 at 7:43 AM, tim boyd said:

Thanks Lea.  I don't work for Moebius and I don't have a dog in this hunt other than to make the model car community aware of this upcoming kit and its features. 

I do have three observations, however.  (These are based in part on what I've learned from my 45 years of modeling journalism and my 10+ years in a very senior position in Automotive Design at one of the world's top auto companies; I recognize that you may not agree with me):

 

3) I hate to see the discussion about this upcoming kit descend to a focus on one single element of the kit, as once my build is complete, I believe many may conclude that it could be one of the best and most innovative 1/25th kits to come on the market in the last decade or so.     

If, when the build is completed (painted, trimmed), you still see an issue with the roof height, that also is a conclusion you have every right to draw.  I'd feel even better still if you built the model yourself and drew your conclusions from examining the real thing rather than relying my pictures.   And if you still have an issue, as we've noted above, the remedy appears to be relatively quick and easy.  

Thx for the observations and the pictures...Best....TIM 

This sums it up. Too often one negative aspect of a kit dominates the discussion and the good aspects are ignored. 

On 9/30/2021 at 6:32 AM, niteowl7710 said:

I've developed a working theory over the past few years that's made the hobby a great deal more enjoyable personally. It's come as I've delved more and more into the backside of the hobby as it were in terms of production and decision making. I don't say this as a be all end all, and I don't expect anyone to agree with me. 

Having said that, every project has a budget, and sure it would be great if gaffes weren't made no matter who's responsible for the mismeasurements. But eventually money and time runs out, and the project has to get out the door. 

My theory is something I call - The 99% Trifecta, and it goes as follows.

99% of the people buying the kit don't care about the problem. 

99% of the people who see the built kit won't know what the problem is (because there is a)

99% chance the built model and the 1:1 example will never exist in the same time at the same place.

That doesn't mean I want to accept some sort of sloppy mess of a kit, but there should be a series out called - Why the Business of the Hobby Should be Your Business.  Kits don't just magically fall out of the air or show up in The Blueprinter or the old SA(E) ads from Hobby Heaven anymore. Take a hot minute and invest some time into the how's and why's of kit manufacturing, you might not like/agree with all of the answers, but it makes a lot more sense if you grasp why things happen the way they do.

This reflects the mindset of most builders. Yes some choose to ignore a fault while others don't see there is an issue or some feel that its a big enough reason to not lije a kit.

I'm waiting to read Tim's final thoughts on the kit. I hope he will be able to do a review like this on the stock version.

[rickcaps55]

I can't wait for these kits to hit the shelf . does anyone know if the guts from the 63 Nova kit from Trumpeter would fit this kit to make a low end stock street car.

[tim boyd]

Thanks Dave for  the reset.  

As I said earlier, I wanted to hold off responding to some of the questions asked by readers of this thread, until I had shown the finished model. 

Now that I have done so, I have posted the "Upon Reflection" photos and commentary at my Fotki site at this link.

In it I attempt to address some of the requests you've made, I show how I propose to address what I see is the biggest issue contributing to an impression of a chopped appearance to the greenhouse, and I provide some comments about how I plan to build a second, mildly kitbashed version of the Moebius Gasser when it becomes available for sale early in 2022. 

You will probably find the info herein a bit surprising in some ways, it certainly was to me.  l doubt it will substantially change some of the previously voiced impressions, but at least you now have this info to add to your takeaway from this online preview of the upcoming kit.   Thanks for following along with this thread, and see you all on the tabletops.  

Best...TIM  

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by tim boyd

[bobthehobbyguy]

Tim thank you for a great review. The comparisons between the wagon and this are interesting. Nice to have all the info to be able to judge the kit. Once its out it will time for us to vote with our wallets.

[RSchnell]

I fail to see how filing down the lip on the window openings is going to solve anything. The 1:1 car has the same lip but not as square as the kit version. Seems like this is trading one set of problems for another and throws the geometry off even more!

 

 

 

 

[the other Mike S.]

2 hours ago, Snake45 said:

1. Thanks to Tim for one of the best, most detailed reviews I've ever seen of ANY kit.  

Here we go again.   Tim’s excellent review and build has nothing to do about how well the roofline matches up to the real 1:1 scale car.   Again, I think this needs repeating.  This kit’s body proportion errors and shortcomings in the roofline is in no how, no way, and has nothing to do with him as a builder.   He didn’t design and manufacturer the tooling, Moebius did.  They gave him one slight chop top looking ‘65 Chevy II gasser to build and he built it the best way possible out the box.

2. I'll be buying at least two of these (and two of the stockers). If it turns out I can't live with the roof shape, I'll do something with them, perhaps kitbash the body somehow with the AMT AWB HT kit, which I have several of on hand. I'm still wondering why Moebius decided to kit the one-year-only '65 2DS roof instead of the far more common '62-'64 roof, but it is what it is. I'm gonna be taking a VERY close look at seeing if that '65 roof can be opened up to pass as the earlier type. I'm thinking the backlight might be a problem, as it looks like it might be a compound curve, which would mean carving a vac master. Ouch. (But to paraphrase a Montrose lyric, "If it can be done, I can do it."  )

It doesn't matter if you buy a thousand of these kits.  The fact still remains, according to the,pictures that were shown, it has a rooftop that looks slightly chopped compared to the actual 1:1 scale car.  I’ll,say  it again, why do we have to do extensive body modifications on a brand new tool to make it look right?  

Since they plan (in the future) to make a stock version release of this model, according to the rumor mills blowing around, the chopped top appearance will look even worse on a factory stock build.  If you're building a fantasy Gasser, then  that’s one thing.  However, building a replica stock 2dr ‘65 Chevy II 100 sedan is another.   It will look even worse on a build like that.😞😩

 

2 hours ago, Snake45 said:

3. Just for grins, last night I went on the great George Klass site and looked for First-Gen Chevy IIs. Now the GK site doesn't have EVERY drag car that ran in the '60s, but he's got a hella lot of them, and I believe that the site gives you a darn good idea of what was running on the strips 50-60 years ago, the good, the bad, and the ugly. 

I looked on that site and others as well.  I didn’t see any ‘65 Chevy II 2dr sedans that had a slightly lowered looking greenhouse section.  Not on the 2dr sedans body-style.  Except for the pic of that blue one on here in this thread, all of the 2dr sedan Gassers looked stock.  Meaning that the rooflines were at stock factory height without any hints or appearances of them being sectioned or lowered in any way.  If you build this kit out the box as is, it will look slightly chopped and not like any other “Gasser” that has ever raced due to the body proportion errors with the roofline.  I will be a pure fantasy build, nothing more, nothing less.😏☹️

 

2 hours ago, Snake45 said:

Do with that information what you will. I'll be buying at least two of these kits and doing SOMETHING with them. If someone tells me one looks chopped, I'll say, "Yah, it's chopped, so what? It's still hella cool." 

Model on, everyone!  

Again, you can buy a thousand of these kits.  That won't change the fact that it does not look like the real thing in the body details, particularly the greenhouse section.  As for the “Yah, it’s chopped, so what.” attitude.  Well, that shows Moebius they can put out a lazy effort and some people will buy it anyway.  To that end, expect more new releases from Moebius and others with body proportion and detail errors because we as consumers think it’s good enough.  😕😠

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by the other Mike S.

[bobthehobbyguy]

So Mike I'd guess its safe to assume you won't be buying the new Nova gasser kit.

Gotta say new releases have something for everyone. For some its a great new kit to build, for others its something to complain about.

Edited October 2, 2021 by bobthehobbyguy
Added comment.

[keyser]

[Matt T.]

Thank you, Tim, for all of your efforts around this review. I was on the fence about purchasing one of these until I saw that profile image with the black tape applied and the red car photo for reference. That seals it, I’m in for one (or more for the parts)! It looks right. 

[Classicgas]

1 hour ago, RSchnell said:

I fail to see how filing down the lip on the window openings is going to solve anything. The 1:1 car has the same lip but not as square as the kit version. Seems like this is trading one set of problems for another and throws the geometry off even more!

 

 

 

 

I agree.  You'll have to add length to the window frames and vent window frames. As a gasser or a street machine  you can have that chopped look, but as I said I was hoping to kitbash and do a stock sedan.  Not going to happen.  I may pick one up to do as a gasser, but it's not a priority. 

[Kool Kat]

I think it is awesome!! I don't get why everyone is worked up because the top is chopped,  legal in gas class, as long as it's not more than 4 inches!! I will buy several.. Was it ever promoted as a "stock" body? If so I can't find that!!  Thanks Tim!!

Edited October 2, 2021 by Kool Kat

[Xingu]

I think i am going to do what a lot of other folks ultimately will do, whether that admit it or not. Going to get one and put it on the shelf with all the other kits I will never get around to building.

Thanks for posting the sneak peek Tim. I like seeing the final buildup photos you do, as you do seem to point out the pros and cons of most kits you build.

[Snake45]

2 hours ago, the other Mike S. said:

Again, you can buy a thousand of these kits.  That won't change the fact that it does not look like the real thing in the body details, particularly the greenhouse section.  As for the “Yah, it’s chopped, so what.” attitude.  Well, that shows Moebius they can put out a lazy effort and some people will buy it anyway.  To that end, expect more new releases from Moebius and others with body proportion and detail errors because we as consumers think it’s good enough.  😕😠

So you won't buy one. We get it. We all got it DAYS ago. 

Good. More for the rest of us. 

[GMP440]

Just throwing this out there;  about two years ago Salvinos showed us on their FB site the 3D renderings of the 72 and 73 Charger stock car bodies.  Very favorable comments came out of that in reference to the accuracy of the bodies.  Had Moebius did the same thing  , showing the 3D renderings of the Chevy ll body to us so we can comment on it ; could that resulted in a more correct body being produced? 

[keyser]

Not if the comments mimic the usual dreck seen in this train wreck. Iirc couple manufacturers used to come here, and are no longer here. 
One Karen in the bunch kills it. Many of us are used to the tantrums. It’s pathetic. Every kit with flaws. Ok, fix them or don’t buy it. Just be reasonable, not entitled and petulant. 
Like Snake I’ve seen far more flawed stuff posted. 
Go to a friends home and insistently point out flaws in whatever, then insult him. 
See how well that goes. Wish for once it could go well. Hope springs eternal. 

Edited October 3, 2021 by keyser
Awful gramma er grammar

[Scott8950]

It's a plastic model kit for goodness sakes.

It's not difficult to fix the top if one chooses to It's only plastic.  Isn't that what modeling is all about? No need in all the bashing if you don't like it move on simple as that. I'm pretty sure someone makes a resin chevy ll post top I just can't remember who.

Tim thanks for all the info and showing us the build I will definitely be buying several 👍

[bobthehobbyguy]

Some in the world are happy to get a cookie. For others

 

[Dave Darby]

4 hours ago, tim boyd said:

Thanks Dave for  the reset.  

As I said earlier, I wanted to hold off responding to some of the questions asked by readers of this thread, until I had shown the finished model. 

Now that I have done so, I have posted the "Upon Reflection" photos and commentary at my Fotki site at this link.

In it I attempt to address some of the requests you've made, I show how I propose to address what I see is the biggest issue contributing to an impression of a chopped appearance to the greenhouse, and I provide some comments about how I plan to build a second, mildly kitbashed version of the Moebius Gasser when it becomes available for sale early in 2022. 

You will probably find the info herein a bit surprising in some ways, it certainly was to me.  l doubt it will substantially change some of the previously voiced impressions, but at least you now have this info to add to your takeaway from this online preview of the upcoming kit.   Thanks for following along with this thread, and see you all on the tabletops.  

Best...TIM  

 

Tim, I perused your album, and I would suggest others do as well, paying particular attention to the black tape mock-up. Tim's measurements speak for themselves. The only issue beyond that which jumps out at me are the headlamps. But I have a feeling the grille/bumper assembly from the AMT Rat Packer would fix that.  And the Rat Packer isn't half the kit the new Moebuis kit is. The detail on this kit is amazing. 

Thanks for your efforts and patience Tim.

[stevez]

When is release date?