How do you prep for a flame mask job?

[customline]

I have used the Lazy Modeller flame masks 3 times. It's an excellent product,  just to be clear. The first two I did were successful given the awkwardness due to my inexperience. Whatever was wrong was due to that. The last one, though, I view as a gross misunderstanding of the paint itself, and what I did before applying the mask. The car was given a black overall paint job with rattle can enamel and after curing for a few weeks, was wet sanded and then micro-polished using the pads. I then used Novus fine scratch remover resulting in a satisfactory black paint job (difficult for me.) 

Using every bit of patience I still have, I applied the mask. The idea I had was a fade from yellow to red using Alclad II candy enamel over their silver underbase.

I waited till the flames were just dry and began pulling the mask. It seemed to go well till the candy along with it's underbase started lifting clean off in some areas. Not a total loss but I know this could have been avoided had I done something differently. What are your thoughts? 🤔

[Ace-Garageguy]

A couple of potential causes: 

1) Shooting your flames over a polished surface. Paint needs at least a little "tooth" to adhere to.

2) There may also be some contaminant in the polish itself. Cleaning every surface with isopropyl alcohol prior to applying any paint product is highly recommended.

3) The method of removing your tape mask may also be a contributing factor. Allow your flame paint to dry thoroughly to get maximum adhesion, and then remove the tape mask by puling 180 degrees from the surface, slowly, to "shear" the paint at the tape line. Pulling masking material at 90 degrees will virtually guarantee lifting.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Another problem with doing scale flames is that the tape edge will usually appear huge, compared to a real car.

This is made more difficult if your flame color is a metallic or pearl, as you can often spoil the effect by sanding the edges to minimize the line.

This is one good reason to try to use a solid color for your flames.

AND...avoid clearing until after you've painted your flames...or only do enough clear coats to protect the metallic particles in the ground color prior to flaming, but not enough to sand and polish thoroughly.

Assuming you get a clean tape line when you unmask, you will avoid excessive film thickness and a fat edge, and the subsequent clear coat over everything will stick the edge down, and provide a smoother transition.

Getting good color separation and a clean edge in scale is rather like micro-surgery.

It takes thought, experimentation, and a very careful and delicate touch to achieve perfection...or close to it.

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

[customline]

Thanks,Bill, those are good thoughts. My thinking at the time was to not use a clear coat after flames but maybe that was "wrong-think".  I struggle with black so I now avoid it but candy flames on black is a great look. I did do a wipe-down with isopropyl( we have a lot of it here lately) just before the mask application. I guess the way to go would be to do a half-way polish down to maybe 4000? And use a clear on top of everything

[Ace-Garageguy]

13 minutes ago, customline said:

...I guess the way to go would be to do a half-way polish down to maybe 4000? And use a clear on top of everything

In my experience, just getting the surface "flat'', entirely devoid of orange peel, and probably no slicker than 1500 grit, should be sufficient.

But that's where the experimentation comes in.

I've almost always shot flames with lacquer, which dries hard and brittle, and therefore tends to make a very clean edge when un-taped carefully.

Your materials of choice will almost certainly require practice with different techniques to hit the results you want every time...a royal PITA, but that's just the way it is.

EDIT: I'm sure there are builders who know a lot more about getting good scale flames than I do with different materials. Hopefully they'll chime in.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[customline]

Here's a couple of shots of the first two.  The Merc makes me very happy although the alignment of the mask segments was a bit off. The mask was a big hassle but I managed it somehow. But everything after that was pretty smooth and I'm happy with the whole project. The '56 became too much with opening doors (that I regret reversing). Masking over opening doors is to be avoided. 💩 . The flames seem a bit thick even though I tried to keep it thin. I did nothing afterwards to smooth it out for fear of screwing it up.i guess I still could🥴.

 

 

[CabDriver]

For light flames over a dark base (like your first example) I use this process - doing the darker color last means you don’t have all that paint build up trying to cover over it (so no raised edges to the flames and less chance of peeling paint)

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by CabDriver

[customline]

17 hours ago, CabDriver said:

For light flames over a dark base (like your first example) I use this process - doing the darker color last means you don’t have all that paint build up trying to cover over it (so no raised edges to the flames and less chance of peeling paint)

 

I don't understand; how do I use a flame mask before the base color? The only way to do this is overall color first then apply mask then shoot silver base then shoot candy color. How would I paint flames first?? What am I missing?

[CabDriver]

Did you click into the thread I linked to in my post?  That shows exactly how to do that, with pics...

In short, shoot the flame color first, use the INSIDE part of the mask (not the part you would usually use) to mask, then spray the 'main' body color over top.

Works best when the 'main' body color is darker than the color of the flames...

 

[customline]

Ahhh.....OK, I get it. 😀 

[customline]

I finally read through your flamed roadster thread and it looks really great. If I use this method on a "full nose" (like my examples above) flame job I would need to do some "free" masking to cover what the flame mask doesn't.  Would you use parafilm?

[CabDriver]

Parafilm would work, or regular old Tamiya tape or similar - or even Silly Putty if it's an awkward-to-mask spot!

Key benefit to this 'backwards' technique is that it's MUCH easier to shoot a dark color over a light color that the other way round - so for something like your first example in the top post there you would only need a relatively light coat of the black over the orange color, cutting down on big edges and paint build up (and thus making it easier to remove the masking).

Of course, it'll sometimes happen that the black would pull up instead when you're removing the mask...but it's WAY easier to touch in the black if you have a little flaw than it is to try and touch the color of the flames back in...

Here's another similar build with the same process (but a slightly more complicated paintjob with some pearls and florescent and whatnot):

 

[customline]

3 hours ago, CabDriver said:

Parafilm would work, or regular old Tamiya tape or similar - or even Silly Putty if it's an awkward-to-mask spot!

Key benefit to this 'backwards' technique is that it's MUCH easier to shoot a dark color over a light color that the other way round - so for something like your first example in the top post there you would only need a relatively light coat of the black over the orange color, cutting down on big edges and paint build up (and thus making it easier to remove the masking).

Of course, it'll sometimes happen that the black would pull up instead when you're removing the mask...but it's WAY easier to touch in the black if you have a little flaw than it is to try and touch the color of the flames back in...

Here's another similar build with the same process (but a slightly more complicated paintjob with some pearls and florescent and whatnot):

 

I get the impression you really like that Revell kit. 😏  I just ordered another one.  It could be better but so could I 🥴.  I think I might try my Createx if it hasn't dried up yet. Thanks for your enthusiastic help. You have quite a talent, Jim.

 

[CabDriver]

Haha, yeah, I have a stash of those 29s...built three so far but got probably a dozen on the shelf...

I really like the Createx black sealer for black paintjobs (with a gloss over top) - its the thinnest, easiest to spray, best covering black I've ever used.  Definitely recommended...but these tricks will work with about whatever paint you wanted to use

 

[customline]

1 hour ago, CabDriver said:

Haha, yeah, I have a stash of those 29s...built three so far but got probably a dozen on the shelf...

I really like the Createx black sealer for black paintjobs (with a gloss over top) - its the thinnest, easiest to spray, best covering black I've ever used.  Definitely recommended...but these tricks will work with about whatever paint you wanted to use

 

I hate painting black. I do it, but it never looks good. There is hope - I have used Alclad II for chrome on bumpers and such and the black base for chrome looks great. I'm considering using it for a whole paint job. I think on micro- polished bare plastic ( or with Tamiya fine surface primer on that,)   and finishing with the black base, I might just get what I want. Your thoughts?

Edited January 20, 2022 by customline
Clarification

[CabDriver]

9 minutes ago, customline said:

I hate painting black. I do it, but it never looks good. There is hope - I have used Alclad II for chrome on bumpers and such and the black base for chrome looks great. I'm considering using it for a whole paint job. I think on micro- polished bare plastic ( or with Tamiya fine surface primer on that,)   and finishing with the black base, I might just get what I want. Your thoughts?

Sounds sensible to me!  I’m no expert tho… 🤪

[customline]

9 minutes ago, CabDriver said:

Sounds sensible to me!  I’m no expert tho… 🤪

Don't be so modest 😀

[BDSchindler]

I realize that you guys are talking about stenciled flames but I attempted to the "other" type of flames (aka, "real flames") using a plastic stencil and airbrush.  This is on a trash truck body and was my first and only attempt to free hand it.

I thought it was a good first attempt and it was easier than I thought just time consuming...

[customline]

I'm not good enough with my airbrush to be able to do realistic flame art. It's a nice look; unusual but gaining popularity among 1:1 custom painters. I like it but It's not traditional (yet) . This 1:1 below is awesome but not a possibility for my limited abilities. There's probably a tutorial on it.