Shelby real or fake?

[vamach1]

3 hours ago, afx said:

The MotorTrend article I posted states:

Thomas brought in both Randy DeLisio and Dave Mathews, both 1967 Shelby historians, who confirmed the shell is in fact a 1967 Shelby, but which exact Shelby (of the 1,174 cars built) remains a mystery.

 

Thus the dilemma.  It cannot be sold as a Shelby w/o that proof.  I still think an Eleanor restored would be a safe bet - none of those are real either.

[Mike C.]

This reminds me. Did they ever determine if that Jim Morrison car was real or fake?

[Fat Brian]

34 minutes ago, vamach1 said:

Thus the dilemma.  It cannot be sold as a Shelby w/o that proof.  I still think an Eleanor restored would be a safe bet - none of those are real either.

You have to be careful calling something an "Eleanor" car though. That name has been copyrighted by a company that does complete car builds. A youtube channel was using an "Eleanor" body kit to basically rebody a 2010ish Mustang with 67 sheet metal and the fiberglass kit. The company found out and threatened them and ended up taking the car.

[Scott8950]

I'd get it running and leave it as is for shows. I would like to know what Dennis Collins paid for it 🤑

Edited January 17, 2022 by Scott8950

[afx]

2 hours ago, vamach1 said:

Thus the dilemma.  It cannot be sold as a Shelby w/o that proof.  I still think an Eleanor restored would be a safe bet - none of those are real either.

The money doesn't concern me.  Just want to confirm its a real Shelby which I feel confident it is.

[vamach1]

36 minutes ago, afx said:

The money doesn't concern me.  Just want to confirm its a real Shelby which I feel confident it is.

 

2 hours ago, Fat Brian said:

You have to be careful calling something an "Eleanor" car though. That name has been copyrighted by a company that does complete car builds. A youtube channel was using an "Eleanor" body kit to basically rebody a 2010ish Mustang with 67 sheet metal and the fiberglass kit. The company found out and threatened them and ended up taking the car.

You can thank Ms.Halicki for milking the Eleanor trademark if that’s what it is.  Foose designed a different car which turned out to be more popular than a 73 Mustang so other than the movie title and basic plot there’s not much the remake has in common with the original which was pretty bad.  Maybe the real remake car Foose designed was rejected but he made one anyway for SEMA.  Imagaine how different things would be if the star car was based on a 71-73 and not a 67 fastback.  I think they chose the “Shelby” as they were gaining popularity and figured the licensing deals would add to their bank accounts a lot more.

[Scott8950]

2 hours ago, afx said:

The money doesn't concern me.  Just want to confirm its a real Shelby which I feel confident it is.

It's a real Shelby no doubt.  I'm hoping someone comes forward to tell the  cars story.

[Fat Brian]

1 hour ago, vamach1 said:

 

You can thank Ms.Halicki for milking the Eleanor trademark if that’s what it is.

That's pretty much the jist of it, he said "Eleanor" in the videos so he was "profiting from her intellectual property" so they made him relinquish the car. It's a beautiful car but F*** T*** B****.

Yeah, a 71-73 hero car would have been really cool.

[larman]

5 hours ago, Scott8950 said:

I'd get it running and leave it as is for shows. I would like to know what Dennis Collins paid for it 🤑

Well, I am thinking he probably paid more than it is worth and is now trying to generate some hype. I was looking and a real '67 GT-350 in perfect restored condition can go as high as 200k. This car is not that. It is a hacked up shell and would probably cost too much to bring it back, assuming it is real to start with (Which I think it is).  As a vintage drag car it has NO known pedigree or provenance, so it is a kind of neat collection of vintage parts, but as the guy in the Hot Rod Hoarder video was saying, the patina is almost too perfect and it doesn't appear to have fit any class, except possibly an obscure one in AHRA. So it isn't worth that much as a Shelby or as a vintage drag car, it is the "mystery" or story that seems compelling here and as I said in my earlier post, I am almost sure it is not as big a deal as these guys would like to think it is. The idea that it may have been a wreck turned into a race car seems very plausible after seeing that second video.

[Joe Handley]

3 hours ago, Fat Brian said:

That's pretty much the jist of it, he said "Eleanor" in the videos so he was "profiting from her intellectual property" so they made him relinquish the car. It's a beautiful car but F*** T*** B****.

Yeah, a 71-73 hero car would have been really cool.

From what I understand, he wasn’t even going to build an Elenor replica as it was in the movie, he was going to use the kit to put his own spin on the theme.

[Fat Brian]

6 hours ago, Joe Handley said:

From what I understand, he wasn’t even going to build an Elenor replica as it was in the movie, he was going to use the kit to put his own spin on the theme.

That was my understanding too, the finished car was going to be a different color with different wheels.

[Ace-Garageguy]

21 hours ago, Scott8950 said:

They have proven it is a shelby or the remains of one anyway. Someone probably has a high dollar fake GT 350 in their collection sporting this cars vin tags. 

EDIT: It's not conclusively "proven" as far as I'm concerned.

Everything that supposedly "proves" it to be a Shelby could have been done by a competent fabricator.

I know this to be true because I am somebody who could do it.

And yes, if the car was originally a Shelby, with no VIN now, it's nothing.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

11 hours ago, larman said:

Well, I am thinking he probably paid more than it is worth and is now trying to generate some hype.

Yup.

[Ace-Garageguy]

20 hours ago, TarheelRick said:

I seem to remember one of those "car rebuilder shows" on TV that had purchased a Mustang to rebuild.  During the process they realized the VIN tag had been removed and replaced.  Not sure if the VIN matched the car they had, they called in some "Mustang experts".  It seems the expert found a VIN stamped somewhere under the rear sheetmetal, and in fact the Mustang was a stolen car with modified VIN tag.  Not sure if this recollection has any significance to this discussion, just threw it out there.

Most cars you come across with no VIN will turn out to be stolen, or possibly in this case, if the thing actually WAS a Shelby, the numbers have been sold.

Keep in mind that removing the VIN from a vehicle, or changing a VIN, is almost universally considered a crime. IIRC, besides violating state laws, it's also a federal felony, with a 5-year maximum sentence and up to a $250,000 fine.

In many cases, dedicated race cars don't have to display a VIN...but anything that's ever going to be run on the street in most jurisdictions will HAVE to account for the provenance of major parts and assemblies.

If the original VIN can't be established with absolute certainty, the car is essentially worthless, at least from a legal standpoint.

In Georgia, you can't even scrap a car with no VIN.

To the best of my current knowledge, all the stamped VINs on panels on early Mustangs appear on the inner front sheetmetal. As this car has obviously had all of that removed, the possibility of positively identifying this car is remote, at best.

Many cars have VINs stamped in other locations as a deterrent to "clipping" to obscure a car's real identity.

EDIT, Federal Law: Section 511(a) of Title 18 makes it a felony knowingly to remove, obliterate, tamper with, or alter an identification number for a road motor vehicle or a road motor vehicle part. Section 511(b) of Title 18 creates exceptions for certain persons who engage in lawful conduct that may result in removal or alteration of an identification number. 

Section 511(c) of Title 18 contains the definitions for "identification number," "motor vehicle," "motor vehicle demolisher," and "motor vehicle scrap processor." The term "identification number" means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and Part C of subtitle VI of Title 49.

EDIT 2, Federal Law: There seems to be a caveat under 511(b) that might provide a legitimate loophole as far as removing the VIN goes, but still, to PROVE the identity of the car will take one jell of a lot of legwork, probably sworn testimony from several people in the ownership chain, etc. Good luck with that.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[Painted Black]

IMO if it ain't got that VIN, it's just another Mustang....legally!!

[Ace-Garageguy]

16 minutes ago, Painted Black said:

IMO if it ain't got that VIN, it's just another Mustang....legally!!

As I noted above, in Georgia, you can't even scrap a car that has no VIN. Other states have similar laws.

[Ace-Garageguy]

One more time...EVERY single thing that supposedly identifies this car positively as a Shelby could be replicated exactly by a competent fabricator.

EDIT: Everything that's NOT a bolt-on part, of course. And these guys saying things like the rear axle has never been removed or replaced must not have actually been under a lot of cars. It doesn't take long for it to become absolutely impossible to tell with certainty whether something has been worked on, especially after 50+ years...and assuming the thing ever spent any time outside, which is pretty likely.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[Scott8950]

15 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

As I noted above, in Georgia, you can't even scrap a car that has no VIN. Other states have similar laws.

You are correct,  I live in Georgia and tampering with a vin # is a felony crime.  Most salvage yards in my area want a title with anything being sold for scrap.

[Ace-Garageguy]

13 minutes ago, Scott8950 said:

You are correct,  I live in Georgia and tampering with a vin # is a felony crime.  Most salvage yards in my area want a title with anything being sold for scrap.

Yup, and while it's in theory possible to have a new VIN assigned to a car by the authorities of the state the car resides in, the provenance of major components and assemblies usually has to be proven. I've gone through the process multiple times with "kit cars" and restorations of "pre-title" cars...though some states are more lax than others.

And naturally, any car with an assigned VIN that didn't come from the factory has vastly diminished value.

EDIT: And in some states, this car could be a real nightmare. 

" "Kansas law 8-116(b) prohibits “knowingly” owning or having custody or possession of a motor vehicle if the “original vehicle identification number has been destroyed, removed, altered or defaced.” The statute orders law enforcement officers to “seize and take possession” of such vehicles and the vehicles are treated as “contraband.” Generally speaking, the law says, “articles of contraband shall be destroyed.” "

SOURCE: https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/check-the-vin-before-you-buy-a-classic-car-to-avoid-getting-it-seized/ar-AAQhI0d

Edited January 18, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[Scott8950]

I strongly believe that's the reason for the entire front being cut off the car. Seems someone didn't want this car ever being identified.  Here's the thing that seems a little odd in 68/69 a 67 gt 350 was not a big money collector car. Could have been someone bought this car as a wreck and stole another car to swap vins? No one knows for sure but I'd almost bet those vin tags are on a car somewhere today.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Scott8950

[Mark]

A good percentage of restored Shelby Mustangs, as well as Hemi Mopars and more than a few GTOs, likely changed hands "in an envelope" at some point.  

[Ace-Garageguy]

6 minutes ago, Mark said:

A good percentage of restored Shelby Mustangs, as well as Hemi Mopars and more than a few GTOs, likely changed hands "in an envelope" at some point.  

There's at least one "real" GT40 out there that was built around a data plate.

[Mark]

One 427 Cobra too, if I'm remembering right (the ex-Bill Cosby car, one of two with dual Paxton superchargers).  Cosby drove it only a couple of times, a subsequent owner drove it off a cliff, then it was parted out to build an AMBR contender (not sure if it won or not).  I don't recall ever seeing anything about that car being dismantled, but somehow the Cosby car still exists.  

One of the Pontiac gurus out there once claimed that about half of the GTOs in existence aren't really GTOs...the original cars were totalled at some point with the unique parts transferred to a LeMans or Tempest.  

A lot of the Thunderbolts and early Hemi Mopars that ended up with altered wheelbases later on got "rebodied" and live on in closer to original form.  When they "rebody" a car, do they call in a witch doctor to transfer the aura of the original body to the replacement one?

  

[CabDriver]

18 minutes ago, Mark said:

 a subsequent owner drove it off a cliff

Whoopsie

[1930fordpickup]

 I do know there are more V12 Auburn  boat tail Roadsters than the factory produced.  That is not the only cloned car as other high end cars have been rebuilt from the parts of wrecked originals( as stated on the forum before) ending up with 2 of the same car.

Ohio did not require insurance until the late 80's by law, if I remember correctly. MY point, per the show once the car left the dealership there is no known trail of the car. It could have been wrecked or stolen and IF the car was not insured it was the owners loss.  Yes back then even into the 70's you could buy a car on credit without insurance.  They could also know the Number of the Missing Shelby from the area and playing that up.