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Paul Goldsmith/Ray Nichels NASCAR Plymouth Belverdere 1964


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Got a box of the Lindberg/model King kit of the Goldsmith Plymouth 1964
To build in due time but started to look for photos on the net, my only source of info
There are not many many to be found, at least what i find

So I turn (again) to this forum for help
 

My aim is to build as far as possible how it was at the debut at Daytona -64,
but if there is shortage of available info , compromises must be done

My main questions are

- did this car have the tube front structure with "the hoop" as I think the Petty car had ?

- assume no rear seat but what about the interior door and rear side panels ?
   Stripped/ replaced with flat aluminium panels ?
   Or the regular vinyl upholsterys ?
   If so ,  any info which version / specification (basic or some higher spec ) ?
   As i understand it, the Petty car had the std panels intact/ in place due to shortage of preparation time,
   removed at later races
  Suppose the same problem for Goldsmith/nickels ?
   Have seen one exterior photo, from left  where one perhaps see a "thin strip"of something which could be the upper contour of a stock panel
   But that certainly is a guesstimate.
   The interior color seems to some shade of red  

- anything else significant for this car to take care of/ try to include ?

   Any knowledge/ info is most appreciated.
 

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Here are some good references - 

Petersen Digital Archive    search 1964 Daytona, set images per page to 240, there are several underhood shots, will have to sort Petty from Nichels.  No way that I know of to get rid of the big P on the images, but they can be enlarged.

over at Mopar Action Magazine - Search Results for “nichels” – MoparAction - a multi part Ray Nichels history

and over here at the other good model car forum - Randy Ayers Nascar Modeling Forums :: Index (randyayersmodeling.com)

extremely interested in seeing your project.  I hope that you will post what you build here

Edited by Muncie
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Thank you for fine links Steve

Was through them
The outcome so far:

The Nichels - Mopar action did not give any clues but had a quite interesting article
Have been through the Randy Ayers forum, and so far found nothing about the Goldsmith car

The Peterson Archive: various underhood photos  from a few different cars show them to have some kind of tubular front structure
So I think it is fair to assume that also the Goldsmith/Nichelscar  had
No photos I found gave any info on the interior of Goldsmith car
One of Petty on the banking had a rather sharp reflection  of a brightwork on inside of the right door
Looking at interior photos shows a chrome trim of that shape and in that place so that could confirm that at least Petty´s car had the inner panels left intact

There were a few engine bay photos of Petty`s car, showing that the inside had a much lighter shade than the exterior, yes black/white
This I think confirms what has in other threads here been said: they got the car in a very light exterior colour, presumably a light blue,
and they did not have time to paint the inside in the Petty blue, only the outside of the exterior. 

So it remains to find out : what did Goldsmiths car look like interiorwise ?
But that is part of the fun

Yes I will post here (if the result is at least reasonably ok, that is), but there will be some time before i can start the build of this one,
have few others ongoing which shall be finshed first
But it is well used time to collect infoon this one  up to then

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Gunnar, I'm glad that gave you a little help.   You may also want to expand the search for Goldsmith's teammates - AJ Foyt, Len Sutton, others?  Ray Nichel's team ran a lot of USAC and are probably more known over there.

Another web site - just found this, haven't looked too deeply yet.  it looks like they have several articles - Inside Chrysler: the 426 Hemi tears up NASCAR in 1964 | Allpar Forums

hope that I'm not sending you on too many wild goose chases.

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Nichels was the "in house" builder for the "factory" Plymouths from mid '63 through '69, except for the Petty cars (the Pettys built their own) and maybe one or two others.  Don't use the Petty cars as reference, as they do differ in a few ways, the roll cage being among them.  The kit is likely a compromise, with features from one or the other.

Some of Petty's cars were white under the hood, but not because they were constructed from white cars.  All of the "factory" cars were being built from bare bodies, even by then.  Those were called "bodies in white" but that's just the terminology, they were unpainted or in primer as delivered.  Some of the independent racers may have been rebuilding showroom cars, but not the factory guys.

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Thanks Steve and Mark for support

Did some further "trawling for photos"

In Getty images I found a good one of Goldsmiths car waiting for the start of the Daytona race , no driver in it
Shows rather clearly: 
- Red/ burgundy/ redbrownish drivers seat
- The upper surface of the instrument  panel in the same colour
- On " the far side" = right side one can see the upper part of the inner door panel:
  Rather prominent radius and "some thickness of material" = most likely not an aluminium sheet but the actual door panel
  Colour same as above
- Black roll cage, both tubes and padding

So far nothing on/ in the P Gs engine bay but found one of Jimmy Pardue's red no 54, following Marks advice look at other cars
That one had the tube structure, the engine in "hemi-orange", and the engine bay was painted red
The questions is obviously : how similar was this to the P Gs car ?

Concerning Mark´s comment on the factory cars coming BiW in primer:
What was the colour of the primer ?
I have seen notes both of light grey/almost white and also red
Photo of the Bobby Isaac Dodge at Daytona, no 26, seems to be fairly light, not red in the front wheel house
The exterior colour on that Dodge looks very similar to the P Gs car
This car also built by Nichels for the same race so presumably th were similar ?

More info much appreciated
 

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I'm not sure what would still be in primer on a finished car.  Or maybe someone would want to build one in the process of being built?

In any case, I'd go with the typical platinum gray.  Black primer would wreak havoc with white and other light colors in the paint booth, red oxide primer would turn a white top coat into pink.  Just guessing, but I'd go with gray.

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The "side trim" appears to be chrome tape.  The numbers and lettering applied over it appear to be flat, not how it would be if applied over raised trim.  Some of the cars at the early races had trim because NASCAR was a stickler for that stuff.  They soon realized the trim pieces would start coming off the cars during the race, so they started backing off on having all of the trim.  

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Thanks Robert and Mark for additional photo and info

Agree to Mark's comments about the trim seeming to be tape, had the same reaction when i saw it.

Found a YT clip from Daytona 500 1964, posted by "crossfire"
Ca 2 1/2 min into thi,s they first show Petty in the qualifications, thereafter Goldsmith sitting in his car
The left door panel is rather visible

And it looks entirely smooth and red, no cranks or handles or armrest or decor/bright trim
So it seems like like they had replaced the interior panels with painted metal panels

The lower part of the instrumentpanel is painted a rather clear red, the same as on the door.

Now is there any info on what exterior colour was used .
Photos taken from -64 Daytona start of the PS Plymouth and Bobby Isaac Dodge, indicates they are of the same colour.
Which is entirey plausible, both cars being built by Ray Nichels
Saw in the 1964 paint chart for Plymouth one rather bright red, assume solid and rather bright.
Another color a dark red Signet royal red, metallic
What could be the best/ mostr likely choice for the Goldsmith Plymouth ?
 

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My kit of the Paul Goldsmith car arrived today, eagerly checked the content and instructions

Paint scheme in instructions confused me in three aspects

1)  The engine, a hemi, is said to be Chrysler engine blue
  Hemis were orange to my knowledge.
  Can this instruction be a consequence of potential sharing with Pettys car ?
  (though  especially at Daytona-64 the Petty engine probably was not blue to to shortage of time ?)

2) The inside of the floor and the inner side panels is instructed to be white
    Could probably mean primer light grey but it could also be that the body on PGS car was acually painted white
   BUT as I wrote above, a film clip on YT from daytone shows PGs sitting in his car, filmed inside the car
   The visibleEdit Addition part of the driver side door panel is without doubt very red (unless the film has been tampered with)

3) Edit/ Addition: Found that in the instructions also the firewall
    and the longitudinal sheet metal panels in the engine bay shall be white
    Seems ok IF the body came primed only or painted white
   But looking in the engine bay of the Jimmy Pardue red car no 54, that one have these parts in red
   Pardue´s car a twin to PGs I assume ?

So how to build ?
- orange or blue engine ?
- red , white or primer light grey interior ?
- red or white or primer light grey in the engine bay ?

Any info/ advice on these topics are most wellcome / Gunnar

 PS Re question on exterior red: Instruction says Italian red, 
so that confirms Rusty´s advice
 


 

Edited by kjohan
added info
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From reference pictures I have seen, the early Hemis (at least the ones delivered to Petty Enterprises) were painted in Chrysler Engine Turquoise. It was also possible that some were painted orange, because that was the same shade as the Max Wedge engines. 

Without definitive photographic evidence, I would suggest matching the exterior and interior colours to your photos, and base the engine compartment on what you would like to see.

Good luck on the build!

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