Why these insanely overly complex cars will be junk when the dealers no longer maintain repair parts...

[mikemodeler]

3 minutes ago, Mark said:

I won't mention brands, but my current driver is sneaking up on 55,000 miles.  I had the rear brakes done last fall...pads, rotors.  Other than that, and oil changes...nothing.  

My two previous vehicles (both from the same manufacturer, but not the same as the car I have now) on the other hand, had the brakes done on all four wheels, twice, by the time they got to 55,000.  If anything, the current vehicle gets more stop-and-go driving than the previous two. 

It would appear that some manufacturers are better than others when it comes to customer satisfaction and getting their products to last beyond the warranty period.

WOW!

I drove a Camry for a previous employer and at 170,000 miles, it still had the original pads and rotors on the rear and the front pads had been replaced at 70,000 miles due to overheating the fronts coming through the NC mountains. My son's 2007 Acura TL front and rear rotors went 150,000 miles on the OE installed at the factory. He replaced the original pads at 95,000 miles, his driving is best described as "aggressive".

[Tabbysdaddy]

My cutoff was 95, but I have a 99 I got for free and another 99 I got for $200. Can't pass that up. I have a lot of vehicles, four tagged. If one breaks and I can't fix it right away I just use another. Most are GM TBI so in an emergency I can borrow parts. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

16 minutes ago, Mark said:

I won't mention brands, but my current driver is sneaking up on 55,000 miles.  I had the rear brakes done last fall...pads, rotors.  Other than that, and oil changes...nothing.  

My two previous vehicles (both from the same manufacturer, but not the same as the car I have now) on the other hand, had the brakes done on all four wheels, twice, by the time they got to 55,000.  If anything, the current vehicle gets more stop-and-go driving than the previous two. 

It would appear that some manufacturers are better than others when it comes to customer satisfaction and getting their products to last beyond the warranty period.

I did a good friendamine's '09 Corolla front brakes at 65K, not because she really needed 'em, but because I wouldn't be in town to do them for 6 months, and she was just starting to get the tiniest pulsing from warping rotors. Unnoticeable to anybody but a machine head who hears them talking.

Rear brakes looked practically new, needed nothing.

I have a 1993 Geo Metro out West I bought from the same person, after I'd maintained it from day one. 230,000 miles now, one front brake job (didn't need rotors), one clutch, a burned exhaust valve at 160,000 miles. Nothing else but maintenance including oil (Mobil 1) and filter changes, and timing belts at specified intervals. I dropped the pan to look at the rod bearings back in 2011, and they looked like they'd go another 60K easy. I replaced them because I had 'em.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

30 minutes ago, mikemodeler said:

Keep in mind a lot of the technology in vehicles today has been government mandated. And the push for better fuel economy and crash safety has caused repair costs to skyrocket due to the additional parts required to meet the government mandates.

And that, boys and girls, is what happens when people who don't know diddly about diddly run the world...and businesses roll over without a fight and let 'em.

[Erik Smith]

Very interesting conversation. Scary and valid points. 
One tough thing - try finding a reasonably priced 1980’s or older car anymore…

[Brian Austin]

7 hours ago, Mark said:

...The president of General Motors has already stated that you may own the car, but they own the software needed to operate it..

Isn't that pretty much true with any software, unless it happens to be open-source?

 

Also I'm trying to compare the OP complaints with cars from, say, the '50s when cars were traded in after 2 or 3 years and almost rusted on the dealer lot.  Somehow people manage to keep cars from that era on the roads today.  🙂  I don't think collectors back then would have expected those cars to have been candidates for future restoration.

 

As far as our daily drivers go, once we trade them in, they're not our problem any more.  🙂 

[Ace-Garageguy]

52 minutes ago, Brian Austin said:

Isn't that pretty much true with any software, unless it happens to be open-source?    How you figure that? You used to actually buy a physical copy of the software. You owned it. Granted it's getting common now to essentially lease time in CAD environments and suchlike, but I preferred having my OWN physical copy that would continue working indefinitely without needing to keep the payments up.

 

Also I'm trying to compare the OP complaints with cars from, say, the '50s when cars were traded in after 2 or 3 years and almost rusted on the dealer lot.  Somehow people manage to keep cars from that era on the roads today.  🙂  I don't think collectors back then would have expected those cars to have been candidates for future restoration.     I lived through the '50s. I have a car my parents bought new in 1963. And somehow, even though I was subsequently intimately involved in the car biz for over 5 decades, I missed the part where they "almost rusted on the dealer lot". Then AFTER they were traded, they routinely soldiered on through at least two or three more owners, often MANY more, 'cause even not-too-great mechanics could fix the damm things. Until recently, I made a significant part of my living keeping the old machines serviceable. Comparing keeping cars from that era going to keeping this way-beyond-wretched-excess-of-unnecessary-electronic-complication functioning indefinitely is like comparing apples to orangutans. I can create, from scratch, quite literally just about any mechanical part I can't buy. But nobody can make up a no-longer-available chip, or a sensor with a dedicated piezo wafer in it, etc. Yes, computer systems can be reverse-engineered and workarounds can be developed, but it's a whole 'nother order of magnitude to do it...and boxcars full of cash.

 

As far as our daily drivers go, once we trade them in, they're not our problem any more.  🙂  Twow it away mommy. It's old and icky and I don't wike it anymore.

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[Russell C]

A reason why I'm keeping my 36 year-old daily driver. A Mk2 VW mechanic guru told me a while back that the simplistic computer in 'em never malfunctions, which is nicely reassuring. Also nice that Mk2 VWs from '85-'92 were popular enough for hotrodding that lots of aftermarket parts are made for 'em, compared to other run-of-the-mill cars. Plus, I can see where the spark plugs are in it. Good luck finding any of those in the latest computer-enslaved vehicle mayhems.

[Ace-Garageguy]

23 minutes ago, Russell C said:

...Plus, I can see where the spark plugs are in it. Good luck finding any of those in the latest computer-enslaved vehicle mayhems.

Couple weeks back, we had a fairly late-model something upmarket in one shop, a Lexus I think, and you had to pull the intake manifold to get to the plugs on the driver's side. Of course you have to replace all the manifold the gaskets too, or the thing will have vacuum leaks out the yinyang.

You just have to wonder what kind of clean-hands little dwerps thought THAT was a good way to design something.

Again, of course, since plug replacement now is at around 100K mile intervals, it's another out-of-warranty, who cares? situation.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[peteski]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Isn't that pretty much true with any software, unless it happens to be open-source?    How you figure that? You used to actually buy a physical copy of the software. You owned it. Granted it's getting common now to essentially lease time in CAD environments and suchlike, but I preferred having my OWN physical copy that would continue working indefinitely without needing to keep the payments up.

You would think that since you purchased the physical media (floppies, CD, or even downloaded the installer from over the Internet) that you "own" it.  Have you ever bothered to read through that entire very lengthy legalise user agreement that everybody just blindly clicks "I accept" button?   If you have read it, you would know that even though you have the software installed on your computer, you don't actually own it. You have the right to use the software.

Read one of those user agreements next time you install some software. Or find a copy of it in one of your installed software. it is probably somewhere in the folder where the software is installed. It is enlighteneing.

[LDO]

The idea of extra payments for something I own is my bridge too far. I’ll stick with older cars. I’m not an old fart who hates computers in cars. Far from it. I just think they should be limited in what they control. 

[Mark]

Used to be too, the average guy could do a fair amount of maintenance and repairs on a car.  You really want to see that today, when a lot of people can't even fix a sandwich?

[Rob Hall]

11 hours ago, Mark said:

I won't mention brands, but my current driver is sneaking up on 55,000 miles.  I had the rear brakes done last fall...pads, rotors.  Other than that, and oil changes...nothing.  

My two previous vehicles (both from the same manufacturer, but not the same as the car I have now) on the other hand, had the brakes done on all four wheels, twice, by the time they got to 55,000.  If anything, the current vehicle gets more stop-and-go driving than the previous two. 

It would appear that some manufacturers are better than others when it comes to customer satisfaction and getting their products to last beyond the warranty period.

Yes, modern vehicles are generally way more reliable than old stuff...and need far less maintenance and at much less frequent intervals....I think I a lot of people look at old stuff w/ rose colored glasses.    

Edited February 21, 2022 by Rob Hall

[SfanGoch]

2 hours ago, Mark said:

Used to be too, the average guy could do a fair amount of maintenance and repairs on a car.  You really want to see that today, when a lot of people can't even fix a sandwich?

More than a few can't change a flat tire.

 

[Rob Hall]

9 minutes ago, SfanGoch said:

More than a few can't change a flat tire.

 

I've changed tires in the past, but for the last 20 years or so I call AAA.   It's been a very, very rare occurrence (three times in the last 20 years), and I don't like the idea of hefting around a P265/50 R20 SUV tire and wheel...

[Ace-Garageguy]

20 hours ago, peteski said:

You would think that since you purchased the physical media (floppies, CD, or even downloaded the installer from over the Internet) that you "own" it.  Have you ever bothered to read through that entire very lengthy legalise user agreement that everybody just blindly clicks "I accept" button?   If you have read it, you would know that even though you have the software installed on your computer, you don't actually own it. You have the right to use the software.

Read one of those user agreements next time you install some software. Or find a copy of it in one of your installed software. it is probably somewhere in the folder where the software is installed. It is enlighteneing.

I've encountered that with some CAD programs that, even though I thought I owned the copy of the dammed thing, it had to have a separate license to run on every single workstation...even if I was the only actual user.

I thought it was bulldump then, I think it's bulldump now...one of the major reasons I haven't "purchased" the CAD thingy I really want.

And I've read all the "thou shalt not copy, reverse-engineer, bla bla bla...", which I always just kinda assumed was their legal department giving fair warning to potential patent infringers.

Guess I'll need to read all the small print in future.

Still, I can see buying or leasing a "license" to use a very powerful computational and design tool much easier than I can get my head around not owning an integral part of what makes a purchased vehicle function, and is indispensable for it to function...thereby giving said vehicle value as a functional vehicle.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy
TYPO

[iamsuperdan]

15 hours ago, mikemodeler said:

Keep in mind a lot of the technology in vehicles today has been government mandated. And the push for better fuel economy and crash safety has caused repair costs to skyrocket due to the additional parts required to meet the government mandates.

 

It's not just government mandate. It's also what people want.

Everyone now NEEDs their heated seats, vented seats, massaging seats, dual zone or three zone AC, heated steering wheel, remote starters, park sensors, rear cameras, 360 degree cameras, sunroof, keyless entry, push button start, bluetooth, satellite radio, LED headlights, power tailgates, self-levelling suspension, adaptive steering, touchscreens, navigation, rear dvd, power folding seats, etc, etc, etc.

A base model Corolla or Hyundai now comes with more equipment than base BMW or Mercedes models from not that long ago. Heated steering wheel & seats, remote start for example.

 

I work in the industry, and love most of these features. But I fear my truck being off warranty.  

[Ace-Garageguy]

9 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

It's not just government mandate. It's also what people want.

Everyone now NEEDs their heated seats, vented seats, massaging seats, dual zone or three zone AC, heated steering wheel, remote starters, park sensors, rear cameras, 360 degree cameras, sunroof, keyless entry, push button start, bluetooth, satellite radio, LED headlights, power tailgates, self-levelling suspension, adaptive steering, touchscreens, navigation, rear dvd, power folding seats, etc, etc, etc.

Well sir, it's what has been very successfully marketed to them over decades, not what they actually need...as you well know.

I've taken some adults for rides in my 1989 stripper fleet GMC pickup, with a manual gearbox, rollup windows, and no heat or AC (which was the way base models came when I was a kid), and they're mostly horrified that someone can actually use something so primitive on a daily basis.

Funny thing is that a few of them think it's really cool...lotsa times kids.

And of course...I love it.

God I'm glad I'm not a coddled wimp.  

[Oldcarfan27]

20 hours ago, Mark said:

It might not even be parts.  The president of General Motors has already stated that you may own the car, but they own the software needed to operate it.

Exactly why I gave up buying any new GM car and other new high tech appliance. These corcorporate bigwigs have decided that it's better for us (them) if they design parts to fail within a certain amount of time, so we will be committed customers buying from them for life. It's not about customer loyalty anymore, it's about sabotaging their products so we HAVE to buy something  from them.

My dad grew up GM loyal, he said they were built better and would only go there when he was in the market. His last new car was a '90 Silverado C1500, which I still have! It's been a constant reliable friend for 30+ years. My wife and I were so impressed with it that when it came time to buy a family SUV, we could only focus on the same company that made his. So we found a beautiful 10 year old 96 Suburban. We assumed same kind of truck, same build quality, same satisfaction outcome, right? Wrong! In just six years between the two trucks, reliability went into the toilet. I've had to personally replace just about everything in the '96 - twice! While the 90 just keeps plugging along. Both have about the same mileage and both get the same care, but one was designed at a time when the company wanted loyal return customers and the other was built with a loyalty to money. You think their newer cars are built any better? I'm not spending my hard earned money with them to find out. I personally know what their attitude is, that's why they went bankrupt 12 years ago!

We also have a 25 year old simple washing machine and dryer. No computer gadgets or techno functions, just simple "clean'm and get'm dry" appliances. While they have needed repair, I have been able to fix them myself with ordinary hand tools and parts that have been less than $50. My local appliance parts dealer has been amazingly informative and helpful, so they are always my first choice whenever I need help and they've never been wrong! Too bad big corporations don't see that kind of business model anymore. 

[1972coronet]

13 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

You just have to wonder what kind of clean-hands little dwerps thought THAT was a good way to design something.

That's been my argument for many years regarding every facet of hands-on "unskilled" labour: "That guy's got smooth hands and a manicure, yet he's telling me how to do my job in a more efficient way due to statistics and other impractical measures?"  

[Ace-Garageguy]

8 hours ago, Rob Hall said:

Yes, modern vehicles are generally way more reliable than old stuff...and need far less maintenance and at much less frequent intervals....I think I a lot of people look at old stuff w/ rose colored glasses.    

That's not really the subject of this thread though, is it?

There's no argument that modern vehicles, by virtue of electronic engine management and improved understanding of the combustion process enabled by computer modeling, run cleaner, more efficiently, and have higher relative power outputs than their predecessors.

Nor is there any argument that modern automated machining processes result in engines built to tighter initial tolerances, and the good ones will run for 200K miles with reasonable care (but so would cars from the 1950s, and well beyond with competent maintenance...which some folks seem to want to deny for some reason).

However, as good as newer vehicles might be when they're new, when they break, they can be maddeningly difficult to diagnose and repair, and as they age and are inevitably no longer supported by their manufacturers, they can be quite literally impossible to repair given the financial circumstances of their second or third owners.

What's the primary STUPID contributing factor here is the insane unnecessary complication every designer seems to think is the right way to do things now (every damm one of them apparently being ignorant of the KISS principle)...and what's DOUBLY STUPID is running non-drivetrain functions like brakes, window lifts, door locks, alternator voltage regulation, lights, signals, wipers, AC, heat, seats, and communications et al through centralized and INTERCONNECTED ECMs.

All these accessory systems can be discrete, work perfectly and indefinitely with dumb switches and relays (or simple stand-alone ECMs that perform only one function and don't adversely affect ANYTHING ELSE when they fail), and be segregated from the mission-critical functions involved in making the car GO. 

Main systems would be vastly simplified. Diagnosis and repairs would be vastly simplified, and having the comm systems isolated from engine-management and safety systems just makes logical sense.

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY and ACCURACY

[1972coronet]

4 hours ago, SfanGoch said:

More than a few can't change a flat tire

I laughed so hard when I saw that commercial -- lazy kids. Can't entirely blame them, as no one showed them how to change-out a flat (assuming that the vehicle has a spare, and it's not buried in a dumpster's-worth of random cr4p). What I find funny is that these same kids present themselves as being tougher than a two dollar steak, but don't want to get their hands dirty with as much as a broom handle, let alone brake dust and knuckle busting lug wrenches. Heck, even the obsessively-clean Mods kids I knew had no problems fixing their Vespa or Lambretta on-the-fly while wearing a vintage outfit.  

[Ace-Garageguy]

7 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Impassioned dumb-old-guy double post. Duh.   

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[webestang]

New cars.......NO THANK YOU. 

I'm sticking with my 4 old cars and I do 95% of all the repairs. If I buy another it will be no older that 1993 ( I want a Fox Mustang hatch).

 

My daily drivers are.....

1996 Crown Vic 4.6 175xxx miles. Paid $500 for it in 2016.

1999 Mustang V6 138xxx miles. Paid $700 for it in 2017.

Fun cars.....

1985 Mustang 2.3L notch 137xxx miles. Paid $1350 for it in 2009.

1988 Mustang 5.0 vert. 200xxx miles. Paid $5500 for it in 2002. 

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by webestang

[Classicgas]

5 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

It's not just government mandate. It's also what people want.

Everyone now NEEDs their heated seats, vented seats, massaging seats, dual zone or three zone AC, heated steering wheel, remote starters, park sensors, rear cameras, 360 degree cameras, sunroof, keyless entry, push button start, bluetooth, satellite radio, LED headlights, power tailgates, self-levelling suspension, adaptive steering, touchscreens, navigation, rear dvd, power folding seats, etc, etc, etc.

A base model Corolla or Hyundai now comes with more equipment than base BMW or Mercedes models from not that long ago. Heated steering wheel & seats, remote start for example.

 

I work in the industry, and love most of these features. But I fear my truck being off warranty.  

Not one thing in that list I want or need.