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Why these insanely overly complex cars will be junk when the dealers no longer maintain repair parts...


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That commercial made me cringe every time it came on. 

AAA and insurance programs so you don’t have to change your flat tire.

Grocery pickup so you don’t have to go grocery shopping.

Chewy so you don’t have to get your own dog food. 

What’s next? A Charmin prescription service so you don’t have to wipe? 

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5 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Well sir, it's what has been very successfully marketed to them over decades, not what they actually need...as you well know.

I've taken some adults for rides in my 1989 stripper fleet GMC pickup, with a manual gearbox, rollup windows, and no heat or AC (which was the way base models came when I was a kid), and they're mostly horrified that someone can actually use something so primitive on a daily basis.

Funny thing is that a few of them think it's really cool...lotsa times kids.

And of course...I love it.

God I'm glad I'm not a coddled wimp.  B)

And there's the rub. Are these features people want/need? Or are they what people have been conditioned to want/need?

Either way, the features are here and we're stuck with vehicles that are significantly larger and more complex than their predecessors.

 

Personally, I like a few extras. Heated seats, remote starter, the best headlights I can get, and bluetooth. All the other foo foo stuff I can live without.

Most days, I prefer my old OBS Chevs to my new truck. My son as sort of taken over my 99 Tahoe, and my 14 year old daughter wants me to find her an old truck. Old meaning from the 90s. And neither kid likes driving wifey's Volvo or my new truck. They like the old stuff. :)

 

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34 minutes ago, Tabbysdaddy said:

I would love to have a 90s GM truck with a manual transmission, mine are automatics. I had an 87 F150 with a 5 speed that was fun, but I traded it for an 87 R10. I'm a GM guy, but I do have a Ranger and a Dakota. 

Love my C1500 with its 5.7 and 5 speed. 3.08 gears so it doesn’t have a lot of get up and go but it’s a good highway truck. If I drive it right I can get 20mpg or better in the warmer months. 

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7 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

It's not just government mandate. It's also what people want.

Everyone now NEEDs their heated seats, vented seats, massaging seats, dual zone or three zone AC, heated steering wheel, remote starters, park sensors, rear cameras, 360 degree cameras, sunroof, keyless entry, push button start, bluetooth, satellite radio, LED headlights, power tailgates, self-levelling suspension, adaptive steering, touchscreens, navigation, rear dvd, power folding seats, etc, etc, etc.

A base model Corolla or Hyundai now comes with more equipment than base BMW or Mercedes models from not that long ago. Heated steering wheel & seats, remote start for example. 

Exactly..I have no desire to go back to the manual windows, vinyl seats, and AM radio of my first couple of cars (1984 Ford Escort diesel, 1986 Ford Mustang LX 2.3).  I'm not a teenager in the 80s anymore, and I enjoy owning and driving loaded modern vehicles (SUVs and luxury sedans) with all the goodies...

Edited by Rob Hall
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7 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

That's not really the subject of this thread though, is it?

There's no argument that modern vehicles, by virtue of electronic engine management and improved understanding of the combustion process enabled by computer modeling, run cleaner, more efficiently, and have higher relative power outputs than their predecessors.

Nor is there any argument that modern automated machining processes result in engines built to tighter initial tolerances, and the good ones will run for 200K miles with reasonable care (but so would cars from the 1950s, and well beyond with competent maintenance...which some folks seem to want to deny for some reason).

However, as good as newer vehicles might be when they're new, when they break, they can be maddeningly difficult to diagnose and repair, and as they age and are inevitably no longer supported by their manufacturers, they can be quite literally impossible to repair given the financial circumstances of their second or third owners.

 

 

That is why it's important to not own a modern vehicle out of warranty.    I don't want to own anything with more than 100k miles and out of warranty again.  Too many complex systems and failure points. 

Edited by Rob Hall
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12 minutes ago, Rob Hall said:

I have no desire to go back to the manual windows

You wouldn't feel that way if you lived in NYC, Philly, Chicago, etc. Try securing your car in the event the electrical system dies while you're driving at night and you're not in front of your house when it happens.

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10 minutes ago, SfanGoch said:

You wouldn't feel that way if you lived in NYC, Philly, Chicago, etc. Try securing your car in the event the electrical system dies while you're driving at night and you're not in front of your house when it happens.

I’m in a nice suburb with a garage, and I don’t drive old high mileage vehicles anymore.  The times I’ve had power window failures in the past were on old vehicles with over 150k miles. 

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1 hour ago, SfanGoch said:

You wouldn't feel that way if you lived in NYC, Philly, Chicago, etc. Try securing your car in the event the electrical system dies while you're driving at night and you're not in front of your house when it happens.

Friendamine went outta town a while back, rented a car, went to a mall to get something, left his phone in the car while he ran inside "real quick".

Came back out, the central locking system wouldn't respond to the fob, and naturally this oh-so-mo'-better POS had no keyholes in either door.

All kindsa grief getting somebody out to rescue him when he didn't know where he was and couldn't phone from beside the car.

When the the driver from the rental company finally got there hours later, after my guy had missed his meeting, the rental guy had to smash the window to get in the damm thing.

Man oh man. How about those wonders of modern technology, huh?

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2 hours ago, Rusty92 said:

Love my C1500 with its 5.7 and 5 speed. 3.08 gears so it doesn’t have a lot of get up and go but it’s a good highway truck. If I drive it right I can get 20mpg or better in the warmer months. 

In my quest for better mileage I swapped 3.08 rears under my G20 and C2500, but I still have the 3.55 rears if I want to go back. I'm not sure how much better it is, but I am sure that I don't feel like switching them back. :D

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38 minutes ago, mk11 said:

I suspect many of us were introduced to the concept, and critical thinking, by gems like this...  

...this thread kinda reminds me of a great old song by billie falcon; 'power windows'  ^_^

Critical thinking? What's critical thinking? Sounds hard to me...kinda like rolling up windows, ya know?

Just accept everything you're told and sold and be happy.   

 

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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"Old truck ... from the 90s." 🤣  Yes it's a beater, power windows as in grunting while winding them up, no power drum brakes, 4 on the floor is the anti-theft deterrence.  No windshield washer, and the wiper switch needs to be replaced.  I could get an EFI system, but that introduces a chip.  People with money do more than restore these with the bells and whistles.  You could buy a beautiful restoration at an auction for $80,000, still a little cheaper than a new pickup with a 4 way tailgate.  I've made a few things from the scrap pile, like mounts for the free mirrors that came from a motorcycle.  I just drive it around town, but did a camping trip several hundred miles away, last November.  I have a totally different frame of mind driving this, than the 2016 Honda Civic that's a computer with wheels on it.  The data center computer has a glitch, sometimes taking a rough turn it starts beeping at me, the stealer quoted something like $1,300 to replace it, but I've been living with it.  Look at my rust bucket. 😆

e_2655.jpg

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For years I drove nothing but old stuff, from a Model A Ford to a 60s Falcon Wagon as my daily drivers. Anywhere I needed to go I drove one of the 5 cars.  I only went modern for the safety factor as I spend a lot of time on Florida interstates. I've already been in one bad wreck in a '55 Ford that I likely would've walked away from had I been in a modern car with airbags and crumple zones etc. Instead I had all sorts of severe injuries, a 2 week hospital stay and still have scars 20+ years later. 

When I bought my grocery getter VW, the salesman was trying everything in his power to sell me on the digital dash and all that BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH. I told him "I like knobs for the a/c and analog gauges. I can't imagine what that gauge display would cost when it craps the bed-out of warranty of course." So far I've got 51K on it and have had absolutely zero issues. 

 

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Where I used to work (unnamed auto part store) , we finally got a pickup truck (2014). Of course, some "numbers guy" college kid ordered the fleet of these trucks: Silverado 1500, odour-trapping cloth seat, rubber mats (a good thing), AM/FM stereo, manual windows, cruise, tilt, A/C. 

Then elected to order the 4.3 litre V6... with the 4L60E... and 3.08 gear. 

What's wrong with that picture? Overdrive+3.08 gear behind an otherwise-great 262 cube V6. 

Thing couldn't get out of its own way! Desperately needed at least 4.10s, maybe even 4.56, gearing! 

Or, preferably, the small V8.

Horrible fuel economy -- in overdrive, it was running below idle speed!

Oh, did I mention the 500 metric tonnes lift-gate that was added post-facto? 

Total. Pig. 

But, hey, on paper that V6-overdrive-3.08 gear exhibited better fuel economy!

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On 2/20/2022 at 3:55 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

There's a related issue in litigation with John Deere regarding "right to repair", stemming from the manufacturer trying to lock out non-corporate techs from servicing the machines.

I haven't checked lately, but that outcome should be interesting...at best establishing "legal precedent" when similar cases inevitably come up against other OEMs.

I watched both sides of the fence talk about this on a talk show last month.  The Deere man was oozing greed with every word, talking in circles.  One thing they did not bring up is that Deere is removing the smaller dealers and making the people drive farther to control the costs, so you can't barter. My local dealer had a 50 year plus relationship with Deere. They had orders for tractors that Deere would not fill and then one of the reasons they were told for loss of dealership was low sales. I told here they just spit on every customer in the area. 

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12 hours ago, Smoke Wagon said:

That commercial made me cringe every time it came on. 

AAA and insurance programs so you don’t have to change your flat tire.

Grocery pickup so you don’t have to go grocery shopping.

Chewy so you don’t have to get your own dog food. 

What’s next? A Charmin prescription service so you don’t have to wipe? 

Grocery pick ups? The laziest service ever for those who don’t even want to get their own groceries. I would never use it.

 

Chewy is fantastic and I don’t see why you say that’s a bad thing. You’d be surprised how much cheaper they are compared to Petsmart or other retail pet store. I used to order dog treats and flea/tick meds  thru them, never dog food. 

 

I have a AAA membership and had it since I was in my 20s. Comes in handy if you need a tow. Why the bad rap on AAA? So what if they changed your tire. You do realize they call AAA certified tow companies, right? Women and older seniors value this service. 

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10 hours ago, 89AKurt said:

"Old truck ... from the 90s." 🤣  Yes it's a beater, power windows as in grunting while winding them up, no power drum brakes, 4 on the floor is the anti-theft deterrence.  No windshield washer, and the wiper switch needs to be replaced.  I could get an EFI system, but that introduces a chip.  People with money do more than restore these with the bells and whistles.  You could buy a beautiful restoration at an auction for $80,000, still a little cheaper than a new pickup with a 4 way tailgate.  I've made a few things from the scrap pile, like mounts for the free mirrors that came from a motorcycle.  I just drive it around town, but did a camping trip several hundred miles away, last November.  I have a totally different frame of mind driving this, than the 2016 Honda Civic that's a computer with wheels on it.  The data center computer has a glitch, sometimes taking a rough turn it starts beeping at me, the stealer quoted something like $1,300 to replace it, but I've been living with it.  Look at my rust bucket. 😆

e_2655.jpg

Nice finish. How long did it take to imitate that patina? Hehe. On the serious side - how often do you get offers to sell that truck? Great photo. 

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On 2/21/2022 at 6:21 AM, Rob Hall said:

Yes, modern vehicles are generally way more reliable than old stuff...and need far less maintenance and at much less frequent intervals....I think I a lot of people look at old stuff w/ rose colored glasses.    

Exactly. At one time, people thought their horse and buggies were more reliable. 

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1 hour ago, Plowboy said:

...At one time, people thought their horse and buggies were more reliable. 

And they were right. Early in the commercial development of the automobile, their horse and buggy WERE more reliable.

We're headed that way again.

You might want to read through the whole thread, as there seems to be some confusion as to what this thread is actually about; the subject here is the poor reparability of overly complex vehicles as they age.

But there's also a worsening problem with the OEMs not being able to get their stuff ready for market prior to putting it ON the market.

For the most recent example, see the thread over on "off topic" about the brand new Ford Bronco engines blowing.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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The one New Fangled Feature that I really like is the Rear View Camera. I'm fond of Anti-Lock Brakes too. Other than that, I prefer fewer Electronic Wundergadgets in my cars. I have a 2014 Sienna Minivan now. Given my failing eyesite, it will be the last car I own. I do plan to keep it up though, as somebody has to drive me to work in it.

It gets decent mileage, and is a good all purpose vehicle. My days of having a 'toy' to drive are now over. I miss them, but then loss is a part of life.

Now that a "Kill Switch" will be a legally mandated part of you car after 2024, you might as well stop buying cars.

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