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New EV Scout being developed after VW acquires Navistar (International Harvester)


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I admit I'm awash in old school thinking but the concept of (and operation of) EV off road vehicles completely befuddles me.  Sure the inherent torque figures for EV motors has a great quality on its own but at some point you're going to run out of juice on Hell's Reach Trail in Moab or the Rubicon Trail.  Then what?  Solar? How many days will that take?  Gas powered generator?  Kinda defeats the purpose of an EV.  I admit my ignorance and I'm sure to be corrected.  Local and/or commercial operation, great.  Extended trips or spur of the moment, not seeing it.

 

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Each type of vehicle has its advantages and disadvantages.

What do you do when you starter motor quits?  What do you do when you have a fuel pump problem or overheat?   What do you do with a fuel line issue or a punctured gas tank or whack your oil pan on a rock?  And then, are there gas stations handy at the trailhead to tank up for your trip home? 

Admittedly, I'm not part of the trail scene, but apparently trucks do break down from time to time out in the middle of nowhere. 

 

Keep in mind that Volkswagen has gone combustion-engine free now, and so it's natural that their new vehicles will be electric.

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You can bring in a few Jerry cans of fuel to get you back to civilization…. But never a big enough battery. A solar recharge would be the only option out in the boonies, other than a tow. That said, I think all EVs  should have solar panels on the roof so they charge all the time except at night. JMHO.

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Sell this idiot idea with a trailer that carries gasoline and a generator to charge your batteries...or a really really really really really really long extension cord.

There. Fixed.

EDIT: Of course, all these things will ever be used for is mall-crawling anyway, to strike a pose in front of all your pasty-white little dweeb friends as a "green" adventurer.

EDIT 2: The demographic believing in and pushing for electric vehicles charged by renewable sources in the short-term is among the most math-challenged groups on the planet

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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4 hours ago, Brian Austin said:

What do you do when you starter motor quits?  What do you do when you have a fuel pump problem or overheat?   What do you do with a fuel line issue or a punctured gas tank or whack your oil pan on a rock?  And then, are there gas stations handy at the trailhead to tank up for your trip home? 

Admittedly, I'm not part of the trail scene, but apparently trucks do break down from time to time out in the middle of nowhere. 

Generally speaking, anyone who knows that they're going to be driving out far enough into the wild where there is no AAA, will be smart enough to make sure their vehicle is in good enough shape not to leave them stranded. If it's not starting or has mechanical problems to begin with, probably not a good idea to go on a freestyle adventure out to nowhere.

Rock Crawlers don't drive to their locations as they're probably not street legal, so they get trailered. As far as punctured oil pans, don't crash over rocks! That is something trail drivers don't have to do.

They're also smart enough to carry extra fuel and not drive any farther than they can get back!

None of these scenarios should be surprises with proper planning, so I'm not understanding how you could say driving off-road could be so unpredictable?

However, I too have wondered how people can make impulsive long distance trips when the electric car only gets as much as 350 miles on average per charge. Not every stop across the country has charging stations and average is 1-6 hours per charge. Not a quick trip by any means and it sure doesn't take an hour or more to fill up a tank with dinosaur juice.

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I’m a life member of Friends-of-OPEC. So pass. I drive a lot in places that don’t have cell coverage or many gas stations. I looked at Model S years ago. No chargers, no dealers, and range at 100+ with AC on in 100 degree days isn’t great. I like tech. But not suitable for uses for me. 

Edited by keyser
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Not trying to play devils advocate here and I’ve never had much interest in ev. But I am an IH Scout fan. I’ve had a couple and my first one I still have. I’m getting ready to restore it as I parked it when my son was born. It has 317k miles and was my daily driver. I thought being a new dad something with less miles and easier for child car seat use made sense and it did at the time. Before family life I was a fairly avid off roader. I live in the south of Boston area of Massachusetts. The majority of trails in this area are probably under 5 miles. An ev off roader should easily make a trip out and back. Not everyone is going to spend days off road or trips that go beyond vehicle range and if they do then an ev is not the right tool for the job. I’m sure they would be smart enough to know that. If not then they deserve to get stuck out there. Just like not bringing extra gas cans or spare parts preplanning should be done. Ev or gas I’m just excited that I may have the chance to get a new Scout. I used to go out to the International nationals every year and toured the old plant that made the current at the time Navistar trucks. I talked to a few of the employees and there was definitely a passion among them for what they were building and an appreciation for where the current vehicles came from. When cars were first starting out it was steam, gasoline and electric that were all fighting to be the one to take off. All had there advantages and disadvantages. In 1900 steam was the 100 year old technology and internal combustion gas engines and electric were the new scary technology. Love it or hate ev does seem to be where we are headed just like gasoline was 120 years ago. 

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Realistically, these won't be on the road for another two or three years. Plenty of time for battery tech, charging tech, and infrastructure to improve and make these things more feasible for daily use. 

 

*puts on flame suit*

flame suit.jpg

 

Really though, people need to get used to the idea of EV. It's coming, like it or not. Production of ICE vehicles WILL end within the next 10 years. 

People don't need to be so fearful of change. EVs are not perfect right now, far from it. But they're good, and they're getting better.

And no one is banning ICE. All the vehicles on the road now can still be on the road when new vehicle sales are stopped. And gas stations aren't going away yet.

Of course, I guess by the time ICE is gone and EV is the only new vehicle option, most of the biggest critics will also be gone, so there's that.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

...Of course, I guess by the time ICE is gone and EV is the only new vehicle option, most of the biggest critics will also be gone, so there's that.

Nice. Too bad for the upcoming generations of puppies, because the way things are going with measurably...and rapidly...declining general intelligence levels, and the dearth of skilled techs to fix things even now, there won't be anybody around to keep the overly complex trash functional either.

So there's that.

 

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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TX grid failed with 6 plants shutting down with 100 degree weather in May last week. 
July August September are ALWAYS 100 degrees. For days at a time. 

Temps below freezing have always been in north Texas. Now whole state drops below freezing for days-weeks at a time. 

Add electric charging infrastructure, the effect of 6-10000# cars on pavement, and the cost of the cars for normal incomes. It won’t go well. 

I love tech. I had interest 8y ago, wasn’t practical then. Still isn’t for many western states. Nearest big city to west is 700miles away. East it is 350mi. We have minimal public transport. #howdatgonwork

 

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9 hours ago, keyser said:

TX grid failed with 6 plants shutting down with 100 degree weather in May last week. 
July August September are ALWAYS 100 degrees. For days at a time. 

Temps below freezing have always been in north Texas. Now whole state drops below freezing for days-weeks at a time. 

Add electric charging infrastructure, the effect of 6-10000# cars on pavement, and the cost of the cars for normal incomes. It won’t go well. 

I love tech. I had interest 8y ago, wasn’t practical then. Still isn’t for many western states. Nearest big city to west is 700miles away. East it is 350mi. We have minimal public transport. #howdatgonwork

 

Exactly.

And as we speak, the water level in Lake Mead (Hoover Dam is a hydro-generating facility that will shortly lose its ability to provide power because of low water levels) is being sacrificed to keep the hydro generators at Lake Powell online. Hoover Dam has recently been primarily generating during times of "peak demand"...just when electric vehicles will be plugged in to recharge. 

The Navajo coal-burning generating plant in northern Az. that supplied 2250 megawatts to the grid was shut down in 2019 because generating with natural gas was cheaper, and knee-jerk greenie whiners wanted it gone. The plant could have been cleaned up, the tech exists to burn coal we have cleanly...AND to produce bio-fuels using carbon captured from the stacks...but no. Now, with natural gas prices spiking, it doesn't look to have been such a smart move.

A billion-dollar solar-concentrator project in Nevada called Crescent Dunes failed to deliver its projected power levels, went into bankruptcy, and shut down in 2019. Though generation was resumed in 2021, energy output is still well below projections, and energy cost from the facility is much higher than projections.

California's Diablo Canyon nuclear plant is scheduled to close in 2025, and those behind the closure claim its capacity will be taken over by renewable generation. However, the reality will most likely have PG&E buying power generated in Wyoming from burning coal.

https://www.ans.org/news/article-3835/four-clues-that-diablo-canyon-will-be-replaced-by-wyoming-coal/

These examples are only a small part of the realities of the stupidity of promising green everything and an electric vehicle fleet in the relatively near future.

But the incessant bleating persists by those who remain willfully ignorant of the magnitude of the hurdles facing civilization as it transitions away from fossil fuels.

https://www.power-technology.com/analysis/solar-failed-projects-struggling/

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
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The Texas grid is not the US.  It's a political situation which we won't get into.

Don't forget that it took years for gas stations to appear across the US.  The "explosion motor" automobile and its support network did not descend fully-formed from the heavens.  It took time to develop.

23 hours ago, Oldcarfan27 said:

Generally speaking, anyone who knows that they're going to be driving out far enough into the wild where there is no AAA, will be smart enough to make sure their vehicle is in good enough shape not to leave them stranded. If it's not starting or has mechanical problems to begin with, probably not a good idea to go on a freestyle adventure out to nowhere.

Rock Crawlers don't drive to their locations as they're probably not street legal, so they get trailered. As far as punctured oil pans, don't crash over rocks! That is something trail drivers don't have to do.

They're also smart enough to carry extra fuel and not drive any farther than they can get back!

None of these scenarios should be surprises with proper planning, so I'm not understanding how you could say driving off-road could be so unpredictable?

However, I too have wondered how people can make impulsive long distance trips when the electric car only gets as much as 350 miles on average per charge. Not every stop across the country has charging stations and average is 1-6 hours per charge. Not a quick trip by any means and it sure doesn't take an hour or more to fill up a tank with dinosaur juice.

This is the point I was hinting at as well.  Doesn't matter what powers your vehicle.  Plan ahead.  Personally, I found the pointed questions I was responding to rather silly.  People keep looking for excuses for EVs not to exist.  And it's rather tiresome.

8 hours ago, misterNNL said:

I'll believe ICE technology is really gone forever when I look out back of our house and see an electric John Deere plowing a corn field 😉

They're working on it!

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Brian Austin said:

...People keep looking for excuses for EVs not to exist.  And it's rather tiresome.

No one's looking for any such excuses. But there's this pesky thing called "reality".

Far as "tiresome" goes, the insistence that EVs are the solution to everything NOW by people who apparently know very little about much of anything...that's what's truly tiresome.

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There was a fire at a bus yard near london yesterday. They think it was a battery on an electric bus that exploded. london now has 70-80 less double decker buses as they have all been taken out of service today. So thats 2 major fires involving electric vehicles since january. My local buses, a ferry and a lot of heavy trucks use hydrogen and none of them have gone bang (yet)

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Cal-Nev-TX grids are relevant. Not political. Infrastructure.
Texas has huge base of “explosion-motor” support dating back well (pun intended) over 100y. 
It’s tiresome listening to the “way of the future” when lots of normal people can barely afford used ICE’s. 
I looked hard at EVs 8y ago. Still not suitable for my needs, I looked again. 
Take a look at lithium mining btw. Rate limiting variable if I ever saw one. 
Hydrogen decent, Honda had one they leased in CA. Few takers. 
Maybe they’ll dig up all the streets and put in wires to charge on the fly. 🤣 Just as soon as they finish Big Dig again. 

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1 hour ago, keyser said:

Maybe they’ll dig up all the streets and put in wires to charge on the fly. 🤣 Just as soon as they finish Big Dig again. 

That was a clever dig! 

Funny (well, really not so funny) thing is that at the time residing in a southern Boston suburb, commuting north to work 5 days a week, I lived (survived?) through the "Big Dig".  Was a sight to see (and experience) traveling on the elevated I-93 while the holes were dug under it and surrounding areas.  But traveling through that area still stinks (I have since moved, and now avoid that area like a plague), and all you see is tunnel walls while going through Boston.

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Nobody is saying the EVs shouldn't exist, it's that they are just not the "be all/end all" solution for everybody's driving needs that certain groups try to make us believe they are!

Another point to bring up is that we as consumers are being FORCED to comply with this current thinking, whether we like it or not!

I personally have issue with being made to buy anything just because others want to make choices obsolete. I was under the impression that it was about finding an ALTERNATIVE, clean burning means of transportation, not eliminating it!

For decades, we were told catalytic converters were cleaner, then it was fuel injection, then direct injection, then ethanol, natural gas, propane, solar, wind, and finally - hybrids. Now none of that is good enough, it's got to be electric and only electric! Forget that our suppliers and economic infrastructures are not ready for the overload that would happen if everybody suddenly went EV.

Somehow, the mantra went from "If you build it, they will come" to "Do what we say, because we know better, don't worry if it's not ready"!

Couple that with the fact that my income does not make buying a 50-75 thousand dollar status symbol an option. Conversely, I also don't believe that buying somebody else's used problems to be an acceptable solution for this technology either.

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15 hours ago, misterNNL said:

I'll believe ICE technology is really gone forever when I look out back of our house and see an electric John Deere plowing a corn field 😉

Or our merchandise logistics are delivered by big rigs, airplanes and locomotives that have extremely loooong electric cords!

Can you imagine the shortouts we'd have when those electric transatlantic container ships touch water? 😃

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5 hours ago, Oldcarfan27 said:

Another point to bring up is that we as consumers are being FORCED to comply with this current thinking, whether we like it or not!

That is the part that creates the biggest backlash to the whole idea. If the sell was approached differently, there wouldn’t be as much resistance. ICE vehicles CANNOT be replaced entirely, especially for commercial uses. There are plenty of city dwellers who never drive more than a few miles at a time that would be ideal owners for EV’s. Incentives for them to convert would be worthwhile. Also incentives for carpooling could be increased….it’s amazing how many vehicles, including large gas guzzlers, you see with only one person in them.

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On 5/22/2022 at 9:02 AM, The Junkman said:

I admit I'm awash in old school thinking but the concept of (and operation of) EV off road vehicles completely befuddles me.  Sure the inherent torque figures for EV motors has a great quality on its own but at some point you're going to run out of juice on Hell's Reach Trail in Moab or the Rubicon Trail.  Then what?  Solar? How many days will that take?  Gas powered generator?  Kinda defeats the purpose of an EV.  I admit my ignorance and I'm sure to be corrected.  Local and/or commercial operation, great.  Extended trips or spur of the moment, not seeing it.

 

I know people like to laugh at the idea of powering an electric car with a generator but that is essentially what a Toyota Prius hybrid does, as do most trains. Diesel electric trains arrived in 1925 and have dominated rail travel since the early 1960s. Using a gas or diesel generator to provide the electricity to electric motors is much more efficient than directly powering the wheels with the engine, because the engine runs constantly at its most efficient rpm. Diesel electric buses are being used and they lack the characteristic diesel plume on startup / acceleration. Even after years of use their exhaust stacks are clean, not black and sooty. 

So yeah, I get it, funny idea, and personally I'd think a hybrid would be smarter for this use, but recharge with a generator isn't actually a crazy idea.

Edited by Aaronw
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On 5/23/2022 at 10:33 AM, Ace-Garageguy said:

Exactly.

And as we speak, the water level in Lake Mead (Hoover Dam is a hydro-generating facility that will shortly lose its ability to provide power because of low water levels) is being sacrificed to keep the hydro generators at Lake Powell online. Hoover Dam has recently been primarily generating during times of "peak demand"...just when electric vehicles will be plugged in to recharge. 

The Navajo coal-burning generating plant in northern Az. that supplied 2250 megawatts to the grid was shut down in 2019 because generating with natural gas was cheaper, and knee-jerk greenie whiners wanted it gone. The plant could have been cleaned up, the tech exists to burn coal we have cleanly...AND to produce bio-fuels using carbon captured from the stacks...but no. Now, with natural gas prices spiking, it doesn't look to have been such a smart move.

A billion-dollar solar-concentrator project in Nevada called Crescent Dunes failed to deliver its projected power levels, went into bankruptcy, and shut down in 2019. Though generation was resumed in 2021, energy output is still well below projections, and energy cost from the facility is much higher than projections.

California's Diablo Canyon nuclear plant is scheduled to close in 2025, and those behind the closure claim its capacity will be taken over by renewable generation. However, the reality will most likely have PG&E buying power generated in Wyoming from burning coal.

https://www.ans.org/news/article-3835/four-clues-that-diablo-canyon-will-be-replaced-by-wyoming-coal/

These examples are only a small part of the realities of the stupidity of promising green everything and an electric vehicle fleet in the relatively near future.

But the incessant bleating persists by those who remain willfully ignorant of the magnitude of the hurdles facing civilization as it transitions away from fossil fuels.

https://www.power-technology.com/analysis/solar-failed-projects-struggling/

 

Agree, EVs have their place but the push to make EV the answer for everything is misguided in my opinion. A great option in densely packed urban areas with relatively short drives and lots of charging opportunities, not so much in areas where things are more spread out. I'd really like to see the push for other than gas / diesel include more options. Toyota has been a leader in hybrid technology and they are now looking at hydrogen as a fuel source. 

Unless people reign in their fear of nuclear power the added demand of EVs is going to stress the grid. EVs currently account for about 1% of the cars on the road, it will get interesting when they account for 10%, 20% 50%.

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15 minutes ago, Aaronw said:

 

Agree, EVs have their place but the push to make EV the answer for everything is misguided in my opinion. A great option in densely packed urban areas with relatively short drives and lots of charging opportunities, not so much in areas where things are more spread out. I'd really like to see the push for other than gas / diesel include more options. Toyota has been a leader in hybrid technology and they are now looking at hydrogen as a fuel source. 

Unless people reign in their fear of nuclear power the added demand of EVs is going to stress the grid. EVs currently account for about 1% of the cars on the road, it will get interesting when they account for 10%, 20% 50%.

And what makes you think that won't be a problem if you're using that electricity to make hydrogen.  If anything, you're going to need more electricity to crack hydrogen and then use it in a fuel cell or burn it in as IC engine.

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