What Scale Is Too Large For Model Contests?

[foghorn62]

A friend if mine sent me this video the other day, and it reminded me of something that I’ve been thinking about recently.  I’ve noticed what seems like a trend toward super detailed larger scale builds winning the top awards in the major competitions.  They are true works of machining artistry to be sure, but I wonder how anyone entering a 1/24 or 1/25 scale build can ever hope to compete with these incredible creations.  I’m curious what most folks think.  Should well built smaller scale builds be judged with the same criteria as the large scale builds?

Something else that I have noticed is the trend away from creativity, and toward replica builds.  I first started participating back in the early 70s in the MPC Model Car Customizing Contests, first as a competitor, and later as a judge/administrator.  The active word there is “Customizing”, because the sponsor was looking for ideas for their line of kits, so originality was encouraged and rewarded with special awards like “Best Originality”.  The highly detailed large scale contest winners these days seems to lack in that feature.  When building replicas, there is little room for originality.

Don’t get me wrong, I marvel at the detail and talent put into these awesome builds, but at the same time, I think originality seems to have taken a back seat, if not completely disappeared.  Where is the line drawn?  The “model” in this video appears to be perfect in every way, to the point where it actually runs on pump gas, blows smoke out the tail pipe, has working air conditioning, and a Corvette price.  It is 1/4 scale, cost $30,000 to build, and is lacking in one thing.  Originality.

TS

[vamach1]

As you mentioned the 60’s and 70’s were a different time and custom work was the way to stand out in a competition.  Who would want to judge hundreds of box stock builds to determine which was the best.  It seems like most contests these days have multiple categories but whether it’s a judged or participant vote format for best of show that pretty much is up to the organizer to decide if all entries are eligible regardless of scale.  I do not envy IPMS  judges where they have to pick one model out of usually hundreds as the best one.  So once is a while you are going to have a model which may be entirely scratch built that has all the bells and whistles that took hundreds if not thousands of hours to build that is just going to outshine everything else.  Models like that should be shown at large events and the builder should be rewarded for their efforts.  Now if the model shows up at local event with only a few dozen entries that might be a little overkill.

Edited June 16, 2022 by vamach1

[Richard Bartrop]

Something is seriously wrong when modeling of this calibre is considered a "problem".  You guys who like to talk about who is and isn't a real modeler?  Take a good look, because this is what real modeling looks like

This is what a model is, a model of something, otherwise you're making plastic sculpture.  In the rest of the modeling world, it's all about fidelity and accuracy.  If you walk into a contest with this, and nobody has managed to build anything better, then you deserve to walk away with every trophy you qualify for.

 

However, I don't think it's unreasonable to have to bring something different to next year's contest.

[iamsuperdan]

I imagine it's not much different than real car shows. A lot of the shows I see around here will typically have a "best in class" award. So which car should get it? The dead mint bone stock example, or the full blown custom?

A few shows will further split up the categories for stock and custom, and that's when you see a table full of trophies. It's almost like everyone gets one.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

I think it would be entirely reasonable to separate contest categories by scale, subject (factory replica, competition cars, customs, rods, or free-form anything goes...for example), and whether the model had builder-machined or otherwise scratch-built parts.

Basketballers don't compete heads-up with marksmen, or swimmers...or even other kinds of ballers.

Why should serious model building competition put every entry in the same basket?

EDIT: The flip side of that, from my own perspective, is that if you're building models solely for adulation and praise, you're kinda missing the point.

Winning is nice, but I've seen wonderful 1/24-1/25 builds overlooked as the "crowd favorite" because one big beautiful 1/8 scale model had so much more  presence.

Understandable for a popular-choice award, but not so much if the "competition" is actually competition.

Maybe a better analogy...in drag-racing, A/FX cars didn't compete for the same trophy as factory stockers.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Ace-Garageguy

[bobthehobbyguy]

Its a stunning model.  However there needs to be a large scale class.  The gas engine feature is impressive but there is absolutely no way that a smaller scale can duplicate the feature. We have several projects in 1/25th scale that could be competitive if the gas engine is taken out of the picture. But the playing field is uneven if you're going to include the gas engine.

 

 

[jaymcminn]

I've moved toward large-scale builds over the last several years because the format allows for more of the sort of detailing and weathering I like to do. Large-scale models do have more presence on the contest table, but it's a double-edged sword. A large-scale build can look clunky and toy-like if the builder doesn't put more effort into getting all the details right.

I go to a show with the attitude that if I've had some good conversations, seen some great models and blown way too much money at the vendor tables it's been a good time. If someone deserves to beat me at the contest table then I want to pick his brain for ideas so I can make my next build better!

[StevenGuthmiller]

Most shows that I've been to almost always have a large scale, and a small scale category, along with every other sub-category, so in those instances, you would only be actually competing with others in that category, which might often only be a half dozen other entrants.

Of course, there are always the "entire" show categories, such as best engine, best interior, best in show, people's choice etc, depending upon the show.

But if you don't mind loading this behemoth on a trailer and wrestling it into the venue, I say bring it on. 

 

But I really can't speak to what the people who are putting on a particular show would allow.

!/4 scale.......Why not half scale.

For that matter, I suppose you could consider a 1:1 kit car a "model", couldn't you?

 

 

 

 

Steve

[espo]

Many model shows offer a categories for Small, 1/100 to 1/32 - Intermediate, 1/20 to 1/12 - and Large Scale anything over 1/12th scale. 

[Richard Bartrop]

All right, how about, if you can get it through the door, you can enter it?

[espo]

10 minutes ago, Richard Bartrop said:

All right, how about, if you can get it through the door, you can enter it?

I was at a show this weekend. A guy came in on a Bicycle. He was in the swap meet area and I think it was his transportation for the day, but it looked cool enough that he could have sold it. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

9 minutes ago, espo said:

I was at a show this weekend. A guy came in on a Bicycle. He was in the swap meet area and I think it was his transportation for the day, but it looked cool enough that he could have sold it. 

There’s a perfect example.

Did he build it himself?

If so, could he then enter it in the large scale category?

 

 

Steve

[Jantrix]

Lets be honest, as a group of hobbyists without new blood entering our circle, we're all getting older. I know many of us who have switched to large scale because our vision is getting worse, our hands shake or the old arthritis is making modeling more difficult. So is it a trend that more large scales are showing at the shows? Maybe, but it's likely a result of modelers adapting to changing health.

In the past, larger scale options were pretty limited but 3D printing has changed that. The only constant in the world is change. Like Gunny Highway said, improvise, adapt, overcome. If you can't beat 'em , join 'em.

Having said that, honestly I don't think it matters that much. I've competed at GSL and let me tell you scale doesn't mean squat when you are competing against builders of that caliber. 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Jantrix

[foghorn62]

4 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Its a stunning model.  However there needs to be a large scale class.  The gas engine feature is impressive but there is absolutely no way that a smaller scale can duplicate the feature. We have several projects in 1/25th scale that could be competitive if the gas engine is taken out of the picture. But the playing field is uneven if you're going to include the gas engine.

 

 

I think Bob is getting at my point.  I have seen amazing machined artistry in 1/25 scale, but never a running eight cylinder engine.  The larger the scale, the easier it is to cram more detail into it.  At what point do you give the nod to the smaller scale build due to the difficulty factor associated with its size?  

Along those lines, how do you compare 3D printed parts to machined parts, or even hand made parts?  The 3D parts may look perfect, when compared to the machined or especially the hand made parts, but do you award the 3D printed parts higher marks because if that?

TS

[StevenGuthmiller]

I look at it this way

I don’t care.

I take my 1/25 scale models to a show and I don’t care at all what the competition is doing.

If the judges like it, they will recognize it.

If not, they won’t.

What scale the competitors are bringing means nothing to me, and I have a sneaking suspicion that most judges will have the same attitude.

It’s not just the model itself that the judges are taking into account, but what kind of work was required to build it, and in many circumstances, smaller scales require some skills that are not as critical with larger scales.

It’s much more difficult to scratch build carburetor linkage in 1/25th scale than it is in 1/8th scale.

Just like cramming $200.00 worth of billet and photo etch into a build doesn’t necessarily equate into a trophy, neither does a highly detailed large scale build.

They are all subject to the same scrutiny no matter what size they are, and there are a lot of factors to consider.

As  matter of fact, a larger scale could open you up to more scrutiny. 
If I were judging, and came across a 1/8 scale model during the execution of my duties that didn’t contain full wiring and plumbing under the hood, I would wonder why when it’s obviously so much easier to do so in that scale.

In my opinion, something like that would be a negative when comparing it to the guy who managed to somehow do it in 1/32 scale.

In the end, I’m not afraid to compete against whatever.

Win or lose, it doesn’t make that much difference to me.

Just for the record, I have to add that the car in the video at the beginning of the thread is not a “model” anyway.

My assumption is that it doesn’t come in a kit to be assembled by the purchaser, but is a $30,000.00 toy for rich guys to play with.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[89AKurt]

Better have a fire extinguisher ready if that was inside.  I tried r/c cars, got tired of crashing and breaking them.  That is very impressive, totally different league.  I entered a 1/72 resin model in a GSL category, the truck in the same class got top awards, I was fine with it because it was 100% deserved.

[foghorn62]

1 hour ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Just for the record, I have to add that the car in the video at the beginning of the thread is not a “model” anyway.

My assumption is that it doesn’t come in a kit to be assembled by the purchaser, but is a $30,000.00 toy for rich guys to play with.

 

 

 

 

Steve

You had me with you Steven, until that last statement.  I don’t know what your definition of “model” is, but no where to my knowledge is it written that it has to come in a kit or be assembled by the purchaser.  Most of the models that I build don’t come in kits.  I build them myself, true, but you’ll never find them as a bunch of parts in a box.  As far as I know, the person in the video that is showing the car at least participated in its construction.

TS

[Richard Bartrop]

1 hour ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I look at it this way

I don’t care.

I take my 1/25 scale models to a show and I don’t care at all what the competition is doing.

If the judges like it, they will recognize it.

If not, they won’t.

What scale the competitors are bringing means nothing to me, and I have a sneaking suspicion that most judges will have the same attitude.

It’s not just the model itself that the judges are taking into account, but what kind of work was required to build it, and in many circumstances, smaller scales require some skills that are not as critical with larger scales.

It’s much more difficult to scratch build carburetor linkage in 1/25th scale than it is in 1/8th scale.

Just like cramming $200.00 worth of billet and photo etch into a build doesn’t necessarily equate into a trophy, neither does a highly detailed large scale build.

They are all subject to the same scrutiny no matter what size they are, and there are a lot of factors to consider.

As  matter of fact, a larger scale could open you up to more scrutiny. 
If I were judging, and came across a 1/8 scale model during the execution of my duties that didn’t contain full wiring and plumbing under the hood, I would wonder why when it’s obviously so much easier to do so in that scale.

In my opinion, something like that would be a negative when comparing it to the guy who managed to somehow do it in 1/32 scale.

In the end, I’m not afraid to compete against whatever.

Win or lose, it doesn’t make that much difference to me.

Just for the record, I have to add that the car in the video at the beginning of the thread is not a “model” anyway.

My assumption is that it doesn’t come in a kit to be assembled by the purchaser, but is a $30,000.00 toy for rich guys to play with.

 

 

 

 

Steve

It's a reduced scale replica of a real object, which is the very definition of a model.  And it probably isn't a kit, which means someone had to build it from scratch, which means that whoever built it has modeling skills that blow away anything you or I could do.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Richard Bartrop

[StevenGuthmiller]

32 minutes ago, foghorn62 said:

You had me with you Steven, until that last statement.  I don’t know what your definition of “model” is, but no where to my knowledge is it written that it has to come in a kit or be assembled by the purchaser.  Most of the models that I build don’t come in kits.  I build them myself, true, but you’ll never find them as a bunch of parts in a box.  As far as I know, the person in the video that is showing the car at least participated in its construction.

TS

My point was that if you want one of these, you’re paying this guy $30,000.00 for a finished replica.

At least that’s my assumption.

Sure, the guy who originally designed and built the prototype could enter it as a model in a contest, because he made it.

If you just buy a finished one......well it would be no different than entering a die cast in a model contest.

If there is some assembly required, well, let’s just say that RC vehicles require construction as well, but I don’t think that most of us would consider them “models” in the sense that we think of them as, and you certainly don’t see them at a model show.

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

20 minutes ago, Richard Bartrop said:

It's a reduced scale replica of a real object, which is the very definition of a model.  And it probably isn't a kit, which means someone had to build it from scratch, which means that whoever built it has modeling skills that blow away anything you or I could do.

I understand that, and as I said to Tim,  the original would most definitely qualify in a contest by the original builder, (that is if the particular show would allow it) but as I said, if I buy a completed one from him, is mine now eligible?

As I said with my comparison to diecast and RC, where do we draw the line?

 

 

 

Steve

[Bills72sj]

I am in the fortunate circumstance that I do not build well enough to compete with talent and skill such as Steve G produces. What I am happy about is admiring other peoples builds and sharing mine on the tables. If I win anything it is a pleasant surprise. If I don't I am still very glad to participate. I have the same attitude when taking my 1:1 car to car shows. With them, the dollars + skills generally win out.

[bobthehobbyguy]

 First off I think there has to be defined cutoff point of say a 1/4 scale to end the possibliry of saying there model is a one one scale model. My previous comments stand. I don't have any issue with larger scales. If larger and smaller scales are competing for best of show and other awards then it needs to be based on degree of difficulty. Some things are harder to in small scale and some are harder to do well in larger scale.

Second most contest say that only the builder can do finishing and final assembler. You can't contract someone to paint your car. However it doesn't matter if a part is 3d printed or machined by someone else as long as the finishing is done by the builder. 

 

 

[foghorn62]

26 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

My point was that if you want one of these, you’re paying this guy $30,000.00 for a finished replica.

At least that’s my assumption.

Sure, the guy who originally designed and built the prototype could enter it as a model in a contest, because he made it.

If you just buy a finished one......well it would be no different than entering a die cast in a model contest.

If there is some assembly required, well, let’s just say that RC vehicles require construction as well, but I don’t think that most of us would consider them “models” in the sense that we think of them as, and you certainly don’t see them at a model show.

 

 

Steve

No, I don’t think they are for sale.  It is my understanding that the 30k is what it cost to build it, and I’m pretty sure that the guy showing it at least participated in its construction.  I’ve seen other such models in quarter scale.  I know there are several videos of a running V16 Auto Union out there.  There are guys that build these things as a hobby. 

TS

[StevenGuthmiller]

6 hours ago, foghorn62 said:

No, I don’t think they are for sale.  It is my understanding that the 30k is what it cost to build it, and I’m pretty sure that the guy showing it at least participated in its construction.  I’ve seen other such models in quarter scale.  I know there are several videos of a running V16 Auto Union out there.  There are guys that build these things as a hobby. 

TS

I believe I understand the circumstance now.

 

I'm sorry guys.

It appears that I was mistaken in my assumption that this individual was offering these models to the public,and that's where the confusion arose.

 

This model apparently is a one off, and the $30,000.00 is either what it cost him to build, or what he would be willing to sell it for.

But here again, as Bob brought up, would this model be eligible for judging at the typical model show based on the question of whether or not it was entirely built by one individual?

I suppose it's possible, but I have a difficult time believing that he didn't have a considerable amount of help with creating the parts, and, or constructing the model.

 

If he didn't build this model from the ground up on his own, or more succinctly, if he had substantial help with it's construction from others, I don't believe that it would be accepted as a judged project at most shows.

But, I could be mistaken.

 

 

 

Steve

[Plowboy]

1 hour ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I suppose it's possible, but I have a difficult time believing that he didn't have a considerable amount of help with creating the parts, and, or constructing the model.

 

What's the difference in building a kit where all of the parts are created? What about buying aftermarket parts, photo etch, resin etc.? The person building the model didn't create those parts. They bought them. Another person or machine did the work for them.