What Scale Is Too Large For Model Contests?

[misterNNL]

Great thread. In those MPC days we didn't have have resin or 3D parts to add to our models. Anything scratch built was looked at with awe and amazement. Some build sheets these days look like a page from an aftermarket suppliers catalog. IMHO those same parts produced by the builder himself should be noticed by the contest judges and taken into consideration. The larger the scale chosen the higher the standard should be. Just my humble opinion of course. As to the consists I chose to enter today...if what I put on the table pleases someone, great,and I appreciate that. If not...so be it. I build what I like as I think it should be built and only to please myself. Always have...always will.

[foghorn62]

59 minutes ago, misterNNL said:

Great thread. In those MPC days we didn't have have resin or 3D parts to add to our models. Anything scratch built was looked at with awe and amazement. Some build sheets these days look like a page from an aftermarket suppliers catalog. IMHO those same parts produced by the builder himself should be noticed by the contest judges and taken into consideration. The larger the scale chosen the higher the standard should be. Just my humble opinion of course. As to the consists I chose to enter today...if what I put on the table pleases someone, great,and I appreciate that. If not...so be it. I build what I like as I think it should be built and only to please myself. Always have...always will.

Tom, I’ve always found your builds very pleasing!

TS

[ea0863]

Q: "What Scale Is Too Large For Model Contests?" 

A: 1:1  

[StevenGuthmiller]

34 minutes ago, ea0863 said:

Q: "What Scale Is Too Large For Model Contests?" 

A: 1:1  

Are you sure?

If 1/4 scale is okay, why not 1/2?

And if 1/2, why not 1:1?

 

 

 

 

Steve

[foghorn62]

42 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Are you sure?

If 1/4 scale is okay, why not 1/2?

And if 1/2, why not 1:1?

 

 

 

 

Steve

Or 1/3? https://www.rccaraction.com/13-scale-gp-car-working-v16-engine-video/

[bobthehobbyguy]

Several thoughts. I do believe there is the potential for cars such as the corvette shown here to be built. 

However its going to take a broad skill set to achieve and it takes time to develop those skills.

Second builds such as this are going to span years. In addition is the cost to build. Not everyone has $30k or more to build something like this.

Limited venues to enter. Next year is the last GSL. There are few contests with the prestige of say GSL.  IPMS is the only other venue I can think of.  Both of these shows only trophies there are no monetary awards. That's a lot of work for what amount to bragging rights.

[foghorn62]

12 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Several thoughts. I do believe there is the potential for cars such as the corvette shown here to be built. 

However its going to take a broad skill set to achieve and it takes time to develop those skills.

Second builds such as this are going to span years. In addition is the cost to build. Not everyone has $30k or more to build something like this.

Limited venues to enter. Next year is the last GSL. There are few contests with the prestige of say GSL.  IPMS is the only other venue I can think of.  Both of these shows only trophies there are no monetary awards. That's a lot of work for what amount to bragging rights.

All good points of course, but if you take a look at what has been competitive in those shows in more recent years, it doesn’t take a huge imagination to get there.  I don’t think the builders have spent that amount of $$, but they haven’t been cheap either, and the machine skill level that they have achieved… I can imagine the the builder of the corvette may have had to shell out a few bucks for things like custom castings, machine work and so on.  None of which comes cheap.  If he didn’t cast the parts himself, or do all of the machine work himself, does that disqualify him?

[lordairgtar]

On 6/16/2022 at 3:23 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

For that matter, I suppose you could consider a 1:1 kit car a "model", couldn't you?

 

 

 

 

Steve

Something I brung up as a guy tries to bring in his T bucket hotrod made from all after market parts he built in his garage in 1/1 scale in a Model Behavior cartoon I did for Car Modeler Magazine years back.

[lordairgtar]

21 hours ago, jaymcminn said:

So what is the group consensus on large-scale "subscription kits"? Everything shows up pre-painted and pre-decalled. Assembly can be challenging but the detail is usually pretty great right out of the box. Should they be allowed on the contest table with models that have been fully built, painted and detailed by the builder?

No, especially when the engines in those kits are rather clunky and toy like in comparison...unless of course the builder changes the paint, creates a sub model of that body style (a big block version from the small block version or maybe a Canadian Beaumont from a Chevelle) and makes the engine actually look like an engine

[bobthehobbyguy]

27 minutes ago, foghorn62 said:

I can imagine the the builder of the corvette may have had to shell out a few bucks for things like custom castings, machine work and so on.  None of which comes cheap.  If he didn’t cast the parts himself, or do all of the machine work himself, does that disqualify him?

I don't  see that not casting or machining the parts as disqualifying. The builder must do the final finishing and assembly. He could buy the parts for the engine but bot just a complete finished and assembled engine.

However if someone does does cast and machine their own parts that should give them the edge over the one who doesn't.

[BlackSheep214]

If it’s styrene, who cares? The old Monogram bomber kits were 1/72 and those are massive built up. I’ve done the B-52 and the B-36 as a kid. 

I am hoping to see the recent 1/48 scale Lancaster kit by HK Models at Syrcon someday. Seen one for sale at Syrcon last year and who knows if someone bought it yet. That’s a big bird in her own right.

[vamach1]

58 minutes ago, BlackSheep214 said:

If it’s styrene, who cares? The old Monogram bomber kits were 1/72 and those are massive built up. I’ve done the B-52 and the B-36 as a kid. 

I am hoping to see the recent 1/48 scale Lancaster kit by HK Models at Syrcon someday. Seen one for sale at Syrcon last year and who knows if someone bought it yet. That’s a big bird in her own right.

Specifying the construction materials required is a slippery slope.  IPMS (International Plastic Modelers Society) many years ago  adapted to allow metal figures and other non-plastic kits or scratch built models.  In the case of the RC car, there may be a technicality to disqualify it but at then end of the day it’s up to the judges or participants if they are voting and let the chips fall where they may.

Edited June 18, 2022 by vamach1

[Claude Thibodeau]

22 hours ago, foghorn62 said:

Hello there Claude!  Thanks for joining in on our discussion with your thought provoking insight.  Heck, I’m give you two bucks U.S. for that kind of wisdom.  

Your point about the big buck builds taking over the large car show circuits is well stated.  I guess you could apply similar logic to the model car shows.  Maybe it’s just as well that the big national shows seem to be winding down, and the less competitive events such as NNLs, regional, and local filling the space.  I think people have a need to hear that others enjoy their work.  It encourages them to continue on, and even look for ways to improve.  Otherwise, the realization that they just don’t have what it takes to be competitive on a national scale could become discouraging, and even cause them to drop out of the hobby all together.

As for myself, I really prefer the concept of the NNL, where I can place my builds on the tables along side some really fine builds, meet and greet some really talented builders, gain knowledge from them, and maybe even share a tidbit or two with them.  I have no desire to do a large scale build.  At the pace that I build, I doubt I would ever finish it, and then where would I put it if I did?

TS

Hi Tim!

Last week, I bought a Big Deuce mint 2013 issue 1/8 32 Ford. I just felt I might give it a shot. Then I realized I would certainly throw so much scratchbuilt at it that it would be substantially modified. And where to store such a BIG rod? I haven't even opened the butifully molded and detailed parts bags yet, and I'm more and more thinking about reselling it in mint condition to someone who would build it "as intended". We'll see...

CT 

[Repstock]

You can make all the sub-classes you want, but a box-stock model will never be Best of Show*. In my experience (such as is is) larger ultra detailed models usually win. You can't completely level the field. Let's face it, these larger detailed models are very impressive, and have the "wow" factor.

The assumption here is the box stock and the large scale were expertly executed.

*unless it's a small or very local show perhaps.

 

[foghorn62]

59 minutes ago, Claude Thibodeau said:

Hi Tim!

Last week, I bought a Big Deuce mint 2013 issue 1/8 32 Ford. I just felt I might give it a shot. Then I realized I would certainly throw so much scratchbuilt at it that it would be substantially modified. And where to store such a BIG rod? I haven't even opened the butifully molded and detailed parts bags yet, and I'm more and more thinking about reselling it in mint condition to someone who would build it "as intended". We'll see...

CT 

This the one you bought Claude?  Don’t you have a 1/1 something like that sitting in your garage?

[Claude Thibodeau]

1 hour ago, foghorn62 said:

This the one you bought Claude?  Don’t you have a 1/1 something like that sitting in your garage?

Hi Tim!

I see yours was at some point more "discounted" than mine... The joys of clearance sales! There's a price sticker on mine that says 117.50$, but I suppose it was Canadian $ when it was on the shelve of an unknown LHS. Who knows? 

To your question: I sold my last personnal 32 3W a few years ago. The pic below came from the Goodguys website, many moons ago. Currently in the garage is a 70 Challenger 440 6-pack manual that I'm repainting for a friend. 

So little time, so much styrene...

CT 

[StevenGuthmiller]

4 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Limited venues to enter. Next year is the last GSL. There are few contests with the prestige of say GSL.  IPMS is the only other venue I can think of.  Both of these shows only trophies there are no monetary awards. That's a lot of work for what amount to bragging rights.

I was thinking the same thing earlier in this discussion, but forgot to bring it up.

 

My initial thought was, I suppose if an individual doesn't mind spending several years and tens of thousands of dollars to win a $10.00 trophy........well hey, knock yourself out.

 

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

4 hours ago, foghorn62 said:

 I can imagine the the builder of the corvette may have had to shell out a few bucks for things like custom castings, machine work and so on.  None of which comes cheap.  If he didn’t cast the parts himself, or do all of the machine work himself, does that disqualify him?

I wouldn't say that not making all of the individual parts himself should disqualify him.

After all, as Roger said in a previous post, I didn't cast the parts for the base model that I built either, and there are plenty of after market parts present at every show that the modelers didn't make themselves.

What should disqualify him would be if he farmed out any of the finish or assembly work.

 

He can buy the engine in pieces from someone and assemble it himself, but if he bought the engine as a whole, had a professional body man prep or paint the body, had someone else wire the car, etc, etc, it should disqualify him.

 

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

By the way, after watching the OP's video again, it appears to me that copies of this model is are in fact available for public consumption.

Why else would there be an included manual and a "free pen" included?

 

 

 

Steve

[foghorn62]

3 hours ago, Claude Thibodeau said:

Hi Tim!

I see yours was at some point more "discounted" than mine... The joys of clearance sales! There's a price sticker on mine that says 117.50$, but I suppose it was Canadian $ when it was on the shelve of an unknown LHS. Who knows? 

To your question: I sold my last personnal 32 3W a few years ago. The pic below came from the Goodguys website, many moons ago. Currently in the garage is a 70 Challenger 440 6-pack manual that I'm repainting for a friend. 

So little time, so much styrene...

CT 

Sweet 3 window deuce Claude!  I love that color!

TS

[foghorn62]

2 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

By the way, after watching the OP's video again, it appears to me that copies of this model is are in fact available for public consumption.

Why else would there be an included manual and a "free pen" included?

 

 

 

Steve

You are correct there Steve.  I missed that part.  In the case of the Corvette, it does say that it is a prototype, which would indicate that they intend to sell them, and as you pointed out, the owners manual and gift pen would reinforce that.  Certainly, the copies would not be eligible for contest entry, just as Danbury die cast models are not.  The prototype on the other hand very well could be as long as it is primarily the work of an individual.  My point remains the same though.  Where do we draw the line? There are other large scale builds that you can bet cost a pretty penny and hundreds of hours to build.  Hopefully something less than 30k, but $$ just the same.  As I said earlier, with the amount of time since the last GCL, and the fact that the next one will be the final, you can bet that several builders will be pulling out all the stops.   Who knows what they’ll be coming up with, and what is the likelihood that it will be something larger than 1/24 scale?

TS

[bobthehobbyguy]

If he's going to sell I hope he's gotten a licensing agreement with chevy or that's going to get shut down fast.

[AmericanMuscleFan]

This is a great topic you started Tim, but I think it will never find the answer you are looking for !

As for me, I only build 1/25 scale models because that is the scale of my youth which is leaving me a little more each day...   I left the hobby at the beginning of my youth to spend time on my real cars and drink some cold beers with my buddies during the hot summer days.  One day, in my early forties, I was intrigued by an ad on the bulletin board of a shopping center near my home that mentioned a model car show.  On a beautiful Sunday afternoon, I went there with no real expectations but found the interest that led me back to this wonderful hobby.  On the table was a model built by Del Paone and the detail it contained just hooked me, I had never seen anything with so much detail for a 1/25 scale model.  Upon my return home, I did some research on the internet to realize the incredible amount of product detail available for the hobby of my youth, it had changed greatly.  I started to buy all the photo etch kits and detailing products available only to realize one day that it was no longer satisfactory.  In fact, it satisfied for a while my desire to build more detailed subjects but I was still hungry.  Then I read an article where Mr. Augie Hiscano was using a small lathe to machine his own custom parts, a new spark, an answer to my questions.

The beauty of this hobby is that everyone finds satisfaction in it in their own way, for me, it is a rare subject or not covered by the industry with details that bring discussions and comments from those who take the time to stop and look at them.  I am my own most ruthless judge and the pleasure of meeting people who appreciate what I do is a bonus, the trophies are nice to receive but the people you connect with are far more satisfying.   As a colleague mentioned earlier in this thread, I build for myself and I choose the subjects that interest me

As far as scale goes, I am able to appreciate these no matter the scale, brand or era, it's the quality of execution that impresses me the most when it's handmade and the best wins!

By the way, thanks Bob (bobthehobbyguy) maybe you like my build but there are better than me on the forum no matter the scale! 😉

Happy Father's Day for those who are. 🎂

[foghorn62]

2 hours ago, AmericanMuscleFan said:

This is a great topic you started Tim, but I think it will never find the answer you are looking for !

Hi Francis!  Thanks for chiming in!  You are one of a select group of builders that I am aware of that are capable of approaching the level of detail that is competitive on an international level these days.  The fact that you limit yourself to 1/25 scale makes it all that much more impressive in my book.

I’m not really looking for an answer, but simply a discussion on the topic.  At the next and last GSL, there will undoubtedly be some amazing builds in many scales, and sadly, since they only select one “Best in Show”, there will be several builders who have put their heart and soul into a build for hundreds of hours, disappointed.  Maybe if they changed their award format a little, they could better address that.  I know they choose like a top three, and then a final, but possibly it may be more appropriate to make it a “Great Eight”, or “Top Ten”, like they do in the 1/1 shows.  I hear folks here and other places saying “I build as a hobby, I don’t build for awards”, or “if you’re building for a trophy, you’re missing the point”, but deep down, if they are trying to win and don’t, there is still a certain level of disappointment.

I wish I would be able to go to Salt Lake City next year just to see what has been built, and talk with the many super talented builders that will be there.  Unfortunately, that is not possible, for reasons that I think you are aware.  I’ll have to be content to see the pics and read the stories after it’s over.

Congratulations by the way on finally bringing your “heart and soul” project to completion Francis.  It is truly amazing, and will undoubtedly bring tiers to many an eye when they realize that that is their competition at whatever shows you choose to attend with it.

TS

[Brudda]

On 6/16/2022 at 1:23 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

Most shows that I've been to almost always have a large scale, and a small scale category, along with every other sub-category, so in those instances, you would only be actually competing with others in that category, which might often only be a half dozen other entrants.

Of course, there are always the "entire" show categories, such as best engine, best interior, best in show, people's choice etc, depending upon the show.

But if you don't mind loading this behemoth on a trailer and wrestling it into the venue, I say bring it on. 

 

But I really can't speak to what the people who are putting on a particular show would allow.

!/4 scale.......Why not half scale.

For that matter, I suppose you could consider a 1:1 kit car a "model", couldn't you?

 

 

 

 

Steve

Didn’t James May and a bunch of kids make a full sized spitfire? Pretty cool but where would you put it ? They were lucky and had a aircraft museum display it for them. LOL.