Round2 Retro Box Art. Yes or No?

[stavanzer]

I'll just say this plainly.

Round2, Your Obsession with listing "Retro Box Art" as a feature on kits is a Cop Out and is Off Putting to the point of generating anger. If I hear your excellent spokesman give "Retro Box Art" as a Feature one more time, I will start throwing things!

Retro Box Art is NOT a Feature and barely a Selling Point! Please stop treating it like it is a reason to purchase a kit. In many cases, you even chose Box Art and Directions that are not the best in a kit's History. In the 1990's & early 2000's AMT Updated the directions of many classic kits with newer (and better) drawings, and had some great Box Art to boot. Going Backwards to the original boxing for a kit, is a delicate choice, and lately many kits just do not get the best they could have had, only the oldest. The Same goes with instruction sheets. Give me the BEST Instructions a kit ever had, not the (in some cases) barely adequate originals. Nostalgia is a funny thing to deal with, and that is what you now sell. Please realize that many of us had our first exposer to AMT kits, not in the "Hallowed 1960's", but in the drab 1970's or frantic 1980's. To us, Those, are the "Good Old Days", not 1963. I'd like to be catered too, as much as the Older Folks. 

Here are the Criterion by which I make a buying choice now that I buy 4-5 kits a year.

1. Subject Matter! The Most Important Choice, it drives the whole Yes/No Question.

2. New Tires & Decals. Your Box Bottom Layouts are a Vastly Important purchase tool. Back when I bought 12-20 kits a year, this was how a picked between 2 kits of equal value, with the nod always going to the one with more Tires, and larger better Decals. Now, that I get far fewer kits, it has increased dramatically in importance. I'll often put back a kit with only 4 tires, just because,

"If it is not worth it to you to include more than 4 tires, then it is not worth it to me to buy the kit"

3.On Line reviews, Specifically, those of HPI Guy! I watch others, but his are the clearest and best at showing the contents. His reviews has convinced me to purchase kits that I had only marginal interest in, due solely to seeing the contents clearly. His reviews, have also stopped me from buying a kit that I had mild interest in. Again, noting that there were no optional tires, or parts, and that the decals, were frankly "poor", stopped a purchase of I kit that I had been curious about, but was undecided about.

Nowhere in my decision tree is Box Art, retro or otherwise. If I was a true Hardcore Kit Collector, only an Original will satisfy. If I am a Noob or only having fun, I don't really care what box art it is as long as it is not the dreadful Box Art Wal-Mart used. I realize that mine is probably the minority Viewpoint. It must be, or Chad would stop trying to use Retro Box Art as a Sales Tool, when It clearly is not one.

(Is there an Exception? Yes, the Coca-Cola Branded Kits. These are just as clearly aimed not at builders, but Coke Collectors, a separate market entirely. Here Box Art, IS a selling point, and a valuable one.)

 

Thanks for listening. 

Alan

 

 

[Oldcarfan27]

I beg to differ from you, but I like the retro boxes from 60s and the 70s and I mostly started building in the 80s. 

To me there is something magical and alluring about the old art from the popart and disco eras, they knew how to sell a box of plastic! And that's all it is - box of plastic. It's up to the builder to make what's in it look as best as he/she can make it.

80s and newer art, while probably more accurate to what's in the box, is completely dull in its execution and delivery. They might as well have put it in a plain box that said "model kit" on it. For the same reason, I'm also not a fan of the early universal box art with a couple stickers on the ends labelling the contents.

Instructions are a guide to assembly, not a promotional tool for the product. However, I do see a need for the steps and parts to be posted clearly. I do miss the days when instructions would tell you the name of each part and the correct color to paint it. I learned a lot of how to identify real car parts by how they were labeled on model kit instructions - so modelling can be educational. I do also think that having the instructions done in the style of the original issue of the box art can set the tone for the nostalgic factor as well.

Extra parts and options are always welcomed, but it's not necessarily a deal breaker if the kit never came with multiple options in the first place. The Monkeemobile, Munster Koach and Bond Aston Martin never had extra options, so when buying them, you know exactly what you're getting - no more, no less.

Decals are where model companies are excelling in these days. They are able to increase accuracy, options, interest and value for even the most mundane kits without hardly any additional cash outlay. Just look at how many run-of-the-mill, contstantly reissued, common kits are coming out with improved decal sheets that are getting a new boost in sales while the rest of the kit has gotten no changes to it whatsoever. Decals make the difference! They can please the replica stock, custom, race car and retro builders with just this one improvement!

I'm also appreciative of the fact that Round 2 seems to be the only manufacturer who puts the complete parts content on the bottom of the box. Certainly, they are also very aware of the history and nostalgia that they own and do their best to market that as a strong selling point!

Maybe your decision isn't based entirely on these factors, but I'm sure there any many others (including me) who do.

[unclescott58]

I love the “Retro Box Art.” I’ve purchased several AMT kits in the past few years because of it. To me it’s like fine art and it’s a matter of taste. Sure somebody can do a more accurate painting of a night scene than Starry Night by Vincent Van Gogh. But does that make it better? Some of the new art by Kelly Daniel used on Atlantis’ reissues of his father’s kits, are in my opinion better than what Monogram gave us back in the day. So it’s not just nostalgia to me. 

Is my opinion on this more correct than yours? Who knows? Round 2 must think “Retro Box Art” works. They keep putting out kits in this manner. And have been doing it for several years now. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by unclescott58

[tim boyd]

Alan, I respect your perspective and thoughts on many model car related issues. 

However, in this case related exclusively box art, I as both a modeler and a retired Marketing Executive am a very big supporter of Round 2's revisiting original and early reissue box art in their current product range.   I suspect Round 2's leadership team, were they willing to go on the record (publicly, that is), would confirm that their current approach to box art for reissues is a key "why buy" for many of their customers.  I also realize that this could be a generational preference, and that model builders of more recent generations may have no emotional or other connection to these "old timer" box art configurations....TIM 

[stavanzer]

I do have a connection to Old Box art. It just isn't to the Box Art of the 1960's.

I'm aware that I am the lone voice here, but I do stick to my comments.

"Not all that is Old is Good. Not all that is Good is Old."

I really thank you for commenting.

I keep having unpopular opinions on this hobby. Good thing I am not in charge at Round2. But, the 12 year olds of 1960-1965  are pushing 75-80, and pretty soon, MY generation will be the ones that want to be catered to. It is uncomfortable to say out loud, but the "Cool Kids" of the O.G. modeling world are fading away. And, even the ones out there, are buying fewer and fewer kits.

I have no interest in 1940-1950's Americana. Why should I, I did not grow up with it? The same may apply (roughly) to upcoming generations in the hobby. I see much of the "Nostalgia" as forced, anyway.

But, in the end, Round2 is going to do, what they will do. My writings and opinions are not being discussed by Tom L. and John G.

Again, Thanks for Listening to me.

Alan Alexis

Edited July 27, 2022 by stavanzer

[mikemodeler]

If adding retro art to a re-issue generates additional income for Round2 to invest in more kits, then I will live with it. I see both sides of this discussion and agree with them, realizing the older modelers may have more disposable income to buy the nostalgia angle being marketed versus younger modelers who may or may not care or have the same budget for purchases.

[Sledsel]

At least the "Retro box art" is not Matchbox retro!  

[Justin Porter]

Truthfully, I'm with Alan here. 

For years, the biggest modeling company of them all - Tamiya - has had box art that could rarely be called inspired. Look at the Tamiya MkIV Supra, for instance. Three quarter view of the subject without a single embellishment. But it doesn't NEED flashy box art to sell because what's in the box - an accurate and easy to build full detail kit of a MkIV Toyota Supra Turbo - is desirable on its own merits. I freely admit I positively adore some of the classic Revell box art like the "Miss Deal" Studebaker or the Competition Porsche 356 for its energy and creativity but if the KIT is good, then it sells itself. 

[TonyK]

I respect your opinion on Retro Box Art and other things but I happen to like the "retro" look and here's why. My decision to buy an old reissued kit is because I missed it the first time or I built it as a kid so I want all the original instructions and box art to take me back to that time. I do want a good set of tires as there is no excuse to include some of the BLAH_BLAH_BLAH_BLAH they gave us before and a new decal sheet is nice but sometimes the "updated" decal sheet isn't all that wonderful.

HPI Guy can be very helpful with his review of a kit but I don't like how he gets all excited that every kit is the greatest when it has some faults that he doesn't point out.

[stitchdup]

While the box art has nothing to do with which kits i want, if there are 2 of the same kit at the same price, and one is the retro box art I'm more likelly to pick it than the 90s kits simply due to it being more colourful and cooler to look at. Its not the retro factor making me choose it, just the brighter colours somehow make it seem like a more attractive option to build than the same thing in a 90s box. The 90s box that stands out most to me is the chevy 70 monte carlo, the kit i have is the green stock build on the box top. The pic is clear and the build looks good but as box art its dull and uninspiring compared to the older boxes. I'm sure it would have made people pass on the kit which is a shame cos theres a very nice kit in the box

[Richard Bartrop]

2 hours ago, stavanzer said:

I have no interest in 1940-1950's Americana. Why should I, I did not grow up with it?

 

Most of he subjects that make me buy came out long before I was born.  That you should only be interested in the stuff of your childhood always struck me as a very limited way to view the world, and really, kind of sad.

As for the box art, I can honestly say that I don't care.  What's in the box is what's important.  If I can get a better kit of the same subject at a lower price, that's where I'm going to go.

In the past, I may have snarked that if you want art, buy a poster, but maybe that's not such a bad idea?   Some of those old kits did have some very nice box art, and if collectibles are what you're after, maybe there's a market for some nice art prints of classic box art?

Edited July 27, 2022 by Richard Bartrop

[espo]

I don't find myself getting all that worked up over the Retro Box Art thing. I sort of like it in many cases and does often influence me purchasing some of the kits if they are showing some new feature or decal sheet. Beyond that it's just marketing on Round 2's part.  

[niteowl7710]

I guess I have to agree with Alan in that....

1. Why is Retro Box Art often one of the 4 Bullet Items on the sticker on the cellophane? The people who will appreciate the 60s throwback box art already KNOW what it's from, it's not really a feature. A subpoint to this is why things that aren't old enough to be "retro" have to also be subjected to the faux treatment. A lot of younger builders are really turned off by AMT/MPC right now (more on that in a second) and they're doing themselves no favors by lumping everything together as "Old Kit!"

2. The person(s) who decided to go Retro with the instructions really need a talking to, I to remember the much clearer Ertl era sheets from 89-97 and these recreations of the original sheets are cute...and also hot garbage in terms of being accurate technical drawings for assembling the kit.

3. Round2 reputation with the next wave of customers is on shaky footing. The nostalgia thing worked in bringing the brands back to life after the RC2 ownership. Buuuuut a lot of folks who fit into that - New Modeler/Returning Modeler group (Bottom of Gen X, Gen Y, Millennials, and the Top of Gen Z (those folks are in their 20s now) didn't know what they were getting with Round2 kits necessarily and have been "burned" repeatedly because they expected a modern(ish) kit and got a pile of 70s "finest". When you buy a Revell kit, 85% of that is post 1988. Moebius - is all newer, Salvinos 80s to brand new. Tamiya, anything post 1986 is solid. Aoshima puts warnings on their boxes about old kit origins, Hasegawa has put out an ocean of new kits and most of the reissues are from post 1986. Round2 remains the only company (minus the odds and ends at Atlantis) that cranks out these "ancient" kits. It's fabulous for a lot of folks, don't get me wrong. But I've also seen a LOT of comments recently about the upcoming modern tools that should be right in the wheelhouse of the 25-45 age group that are something to the effect of - A new Bronco...cool, too bad it's AMT. Sweet a new Charger, too bad someone else isn't doing it.

Now you can twist in the wind however you want to about ungrateful youth and not real modelers, etc. But let's face the reality that most kits past the end of the 1980s have a certain engineering and build quality to them, and with this unified box art people don't know what to expect and are now just skipping the brands entirely.

Edited July 27, 2022 by niteowl7710

[Richard Bartrop]

People forget how many modelers got seduced by pretty box art back in the "golden Age", only to be turned off modeling by the reality inside the box, and how most of the companies who thought they could get away with this are no longer with us.  Photo boxes may not be pretty, but at least they give you some idea of what you're getting yourself into.

[stavanzer]

44 minutes ago, niteowl7710 said:

. Why is Retro Box Art often one of the 4 Bullet Items on the sticker on the cellophane? The people who will appreciate the 60s throwback box art already KNOW what it's from, it's not really a feature. A subpoint to this is why things that aren't old enough to be "retro" have to also be subjected to the faux treatment. A lot of younger builders are really turned off by AMT/MPC right now (more on that in a second) and they're doing themselves no favors by lumping everything together as "Old Kit!"

This is the whole point of 90% of my comment. I thought I was not the only one.

45 minutes ago, niteowl7710 said:

The person(s) who decided to go Retro with the instructions really need a talking to, I to remember the much clearer Ertl era sheets from 89-97 and these recreations of the original sheets are cute...and also hot garbage in terms of being accurate technical drawings for assembling the kit.

Yes, Yes, Yes!

46 minutes ago, niteowl7710 said:

Round2 remains the only company (minus the odds and ends at Atlantis) that cranks out these "ancient" kits. It's fabulous for a lot of folks, don't get me wrong. But I've also seen a LOT of comments recently about the upcoming modern tools that should be right in the wheelhouse of the 25-45 age group that are something to the effect of - A new Bronco...cool, too bad it's AMT. Sweet a new Charger, too bad someone else isn't doing it.

This is part of my point also in response to Tim B.s thoughtful commentary. I've noted this attitude in a couple of younger car modelers in our club, as well as one older modeler, who despite his age, never built kits during the First "Golden Age" and so started building in the 1990's. His familiarly with old AMT is spotty and he often will not touch even new Retro kits, simply to avoid hassles with old tooling. He may not be alone in the market.

Good Points made by all, IMHO.

 

[Bucky]

I always took issue with mislabeled kits, such as the Plymouth Duster kit that clearly has a Dodge Dart Sport inside the box. Also, some of the "Photo of actual model" box art shows parts that are not included in the box, which could be a different set of wheels, or tires, etc. I have no problem with the Retro box art, and I'd be okay with the photo box art, if it actually depicted what is in the box.

[1972coronet]

I, too, would rather see more content (e.g., more and upgraded -- pad printed -- tyres, and vaster-yet-more-comprehensive decals; such as instrument gauges, emblems, etc.) than fluff. The retro gig is a visual delight to me (but, I'm an artist, so...); however, by the same token, I become frustrated by the poor condition of the contents (i.e., kits that have been in virtually constant production for longer'an I've been alive -- 1953 F-100, for an instance) due to wear and/or lack of maintenance - think "core shift", which de facto causes bodies, interior tubs, chassis, engine halves, etc., which are uneven. 
Some of that is easily fixed, other parts not so much.

Truly, I feel that many of the frustrations which many feel stem from the stratospheric price hikes: $30+ for an old 1/25 kit is a lot of coins! Especially when one considers that little to no effort is given to improve the product. 
Then there's the whole where-it's-made fiasco: How does Salvino's make their kits here and sell them retail for the same price?

But, that's a horse of a different colour -- a non-sequitur on my part.

I agree regarding the instruction sheets: most are mediocre at best, and downright confounding at worst. 
Yes, some of us do at least reference the instruction sheets (haha).

I'll take the Retro Box Art over those horrid Racing Chumps executions any day.

 

[Luc Janssens]

4 hours ago, tim boyd said:

Alan, I respect your perspective and thoughts on many model car related issues. 

However, in this case related exclusively box art, I as both a modeler and a retired Marketing Executive am a very big supporter of Round 2's revisiting original and early reissue box art in their current product range.   I suspect Round 2's leadership team, were they willing to go on the record (publicly, that is), would confirm that their current approach to box art for reissues is a key "why buy" for many of their customers.  I also realize that this could be a generational preference, and that model builders of more recent generations may have no emotional or other connection to these "old timer" box art configurations....TIM 

Indeed, it has been said time and time again, we're not the ones who buy the bulk of a kit run, Round2 plays the nostalgia  card, retired baby boomers grab something off the shelf, or buy online that what reminds them of their yought.

A neat side effect is that it brings in truckloads of money, they once in a while can spend on douchebags like us (tongue in cheek)

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Luc Janssens

[Motor City]

I never based a kit purchase on the box art.  It always came down to the subject matter.  However, I did take a number of Marketing classes in college (decades ago) and packaging sells - to some extent.  Round2 is doing a good job with some of the older kits by making corrections to old tooling and adding improved decal sheets.  Many on the forum indicate they will buy a new release of an old kit just for the extra tires and decals.  That's fine if you want to buy it to part out, but most buyers just want something that's easy to put together and has decent accuracy.  I can see where the retro box art would be confusing if a person doesn't take the time to read on the box that it isn't new tooling! 

[unclescott58]

A lot of people here are putting down the old kits as being junk. I disagree. I’ve been building great looking models for years from that so called ”junk.” Some of the newer kits have been more of a problem for me. They’ve gotten so overly detailed and complicated, I have troubles sometimes getting a good looking model out of them. And there is also talk of unmaintained and worn out tooling. I think that Round 2, along with Atlantis, has done a great job updating some, and cleaning up others. I’ve had less problems with their “old” reissues, than with Moebuis’ new kits (the new kits by Revell in general have been very good). I’ve never gotten a kit in recent years, with as badly warped parts as I got in the latest Moebius Ramp Truck kit. 

Either way, I guess it doesn’t really matter what I think. But, I’m going to continue giving my money to buying old “junk” kits in boxes with old box art, because that’s what I like, trust, and am comfortable with. I work with kids, and I don’t see or hear many of them showing any real interest in model building. So I think Round 2 and Atlantis are doing the right thing and selling kits to old farts like me. I have the interest and money to buy both the new and old kits I want, or have wanted in the past. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by unclescott58

[tim boyd]

3 hours ago, stavanzer said:

 

Good Points made by all, IMHO.

 

What Alan said....great discussion here, guys!   TB  

[1972coronet]

1 hour ago, unclescott58 said:

And there is also talk of unmaintained of worn out tooling. I think that Round 2, along with Atlantis, has done a great job updating some, and cleaning up others. I’ve had less problems with their “old” reissues, than with Moebuis’ new kits (the new kits by Revell in general have been very good). I’ve never gotten a kit in recent years, as with as badly warped parts as I got in the latest Moebius Ramp Truck kit. 

Guilty as in absentia charged. 

Certainly I wasn't referring to the entirety of Round 2's offerings, though I should have mentioned their great work on updating/improving some of their kits (Grumpy's Toy 1972 Vega; Bruce Larson's 1974 Vega; 1970 Camaro 'full bumper'; International Transtar, to name a few). 
I apologise for my lack of accolades and acknowledgements of these works.

And, yes, some of the intricate details of the newer kits can be overwhelming for someone like me. I positively love that the detail levels have improved; however, speaking as someone with arthritis and ageing vision, the smaller parts become frustrating.
Certainly I'm not alone in this. 

Moebuis's F-Series -- of which I only have the Model King 1969 F-100 -- show so much promise, but the warping issues are, IM shared O, unacceptable. 
But, again, mentioning Moebius in a Round2 thread -- my mentioning of Moebius -- is non seq. 

**AMENDMENT**

My quip about unmaintained tooling stems from the age of the tooling, which is the natural course of things. And, again, rectifying some of the 'core shift' results is not fun in some instances; again citing the (otherwise great) AMT 1953 F-100 (whose origins date to, what, 1962?). I've built countless copies of that kit since I first discovered it in 1977, but its age is really showing.I just wish that Round2 would restore the tooling -- it's well worth it! Iconic kit for sure.

Edited July 27, 2022 by 1972coronet

[Plowboy]

Personally, Round2 can do retro boxart on every kit they make. It doesn't matter what's on the box. What matters is what's in the box. I'm certainly not going to complain about it. Especially if it helps sell kits.

As always, if you like it, don't buy it. It's that simple. 

[Oldcarfan27]

I think the "Retro Box Art" statement is only used on the boxes that have had that cover in the past.

As we all know, Round 2 has used the "retro-style" boxes on the newer kits that weren't available when the real car was new. Examples being the 66 Fairlane, 69 GTX convertible, 67 Mustang GT and GT350, 62 Bel Air as well as the 70 Camaro kits and the 70 Corvette LT1. All done in the style of the annual kits that never were. Those boxes won't say they came from original boxes, because there weren't any.

I guess they could say "tribute" or "clone" instead?

[iBorg]

What I would like is a box that may have a retro feel to it such as Round2's, most of Atlantis and Moeibius with ACCURATE pictures of a built kit with the contents of that kit. As two examples, AMT had a habit of cars built with wheels that were not included or heavily photoshopped or the disaster of the Jungle Jim Camaro with a great detail pic of the actual car and the body looking nothing like it or anything else.

I also agree decals will get me to buy a kit. I need a new Piranha solely for the decals.

Extra parts may get me to buy a kit but after modeling for a bunch of years, I've got too many extra parts already.