We seem to be losing resin manufacturers at an alarming rate.

[Ace-Garageguy]

First Modelhaus went away, more recently AITM, then Scenes Unlimited, and many aftermarket websites selling high quality resin stuff are marking a very high percentage of their offerings as perpetually "OUT OF STOCK".

Nobody's really picking up the slack, either. Though Scenes Unlimited's line was bought out by another company, many of the products in that line aren't being offered by the new guys.

Sure, a lot of the great casters are getting old and hanging up their spurs, but where's the influx of new blood? 

3D printing, though an option for some, is kinda like the whole EV thing: not everyone has the money to get into it. Nor does everyone have the time or desire to learn an entirely new skillset.

And yes, there are some high-quality resin makers still plying their trade, and every now and then a new one appears on the scene...but it would probably be a good idea to buy any resin you want...and can afford...NOW.

[Rob Hall]

Older resin casters have been retiring or otherwise shutting down for several years now, and we are seeing the rise of new makers of 3D printed product.  There is a vast amount of parts and kits now available aa 3D printed products that weren't available a few years ago... the aftermarket is evolving.

 As with any aftermarket product, the time to buy is when you see it available if you want it and can afford it, as there is no guarantee it will be available later. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Rob Hall

[iamsuperdan]

Yeah, I've noticed that. Some will disagree, but I think we're just seeing an evolution in the hobby. 

New tech arrives on the scene, making it easy for many to create the items they need, without having to pay for shipping, or wait for shipping. 

Resin manufacturers see this, and then many realize it's hard to compete with home 3D printing. So they choose to close shop. Disappointing for sure, because there have been so many that have filled that aftermarket niche for so long, and have put out amazing products.

But it's just how it is. 

 

And over time, the cost of 3d printers will keep coming down and the tech will get better, and they'll become almost as commonplace as airbrushes or spray booths. 

 

 

And unlike the switch to EVs, there's no mandate. 

I think if a new tech or new way of doing things has merit, people with just switch organically. Kind of like CDs and the advent of streaming. 

 

 

[Rob Hall]

Just now, iamsuperdan said:

Yeah, I've noticed that. Some will disagree, but I think we're just seeing an evolution in the hobby. 

New tech arrives on the scene, making it easy for many to create the items they need, without having to pay for shipping, or wait for shipping. 

Resin manufacturers see this, and then many realize it's hard to compete with home 3D printing. So they choose to close shop. Disappointing for sure, because there have been so many that have filled that aftermarket niche for so long, and have put out amazing products.

 

I wasn't even referring to home 3D printing--I was referring to the amount of product available printed from various sources (sellers on eBay, Shapeways, sellers w/ their own websites, etc). 

I haven't gotten into home 3D printing yet--may do that down the road..though since I spend my workday building computer software not sure if I want to muck around w/ more software in my free time.      Interesting times...

[charlie8575]

Sort of a golden opportunity for those who know how to cast, if you're so motivated. Resin products, if lined up against 3-D print, are usually less expensive because of the lesser investment required, particularly in equipment. A complete resin kit is usually around $80-100.00. Bodies are $20-40.00. Complete 3-D kits seem to be around $200.00, with bodies being in the $50.00-100.00 range.

Charlie Larkin

[Ace-Garageguy]

22 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

 Resin manufacturers see this, and then many realize it's hard to compete with home 3D printing.

No doubt that's entirely true, but both you and Rob are apparently fairly high-income earners. You can afford to get into "home 3D printing". As can I.

But the truth is that very many car modelers are retired, on fixed incomes, and simply don't have the resources to adapt..will never have...and as Charlie rightly points out, there's often a rather high cost disparity between cast resin and 3D printed stuff.

Of course, also overlooked in your response, buying 3D printed goods from online suppliers STILL leaves a purchaser subject to the same possible quality, timeliness, and shipping issues that often arise when buying traditional resin. No improvement there.

On the other hand, 3D printing makes possible very short run, or one-off, manufacturing a viable possibility...and a significant cost penalty for being able to get a one-of-one of anything is entirely understandable.

3D printing also makes production or parts that simply can NOT be made with any other method...like scale-accurate wire wheels.

But what's unfortunate is the notion that 3D printing is a replacement for more traditional production methods.

The fact is that apps or smartphones or laptops make very poor hammers and shovels. See if you can figure out what that means.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Rob Hall]

1 minute ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

 

But what's unfortunate is the notion that 3D printing is a replacement for more traditional production methods.

Like it or not, that does seem to happening...maybe younger generations entering the production side of the aftermarket take to 3DP quicker than resin casting..not sure.  The market is evolving.   

[mikemodeler]

Something overlooked in the resin casting versus resin printing is the time factor in resin casting. Typically resin molds only last so long before needing to re-done and that takes time and money. Having personally spoken with Danny at Scenes Unlimited, he would lament the amount of time it took him to rebuild molds for orders, chipping away at the profits and preventing him from developing new items as he was swamped with orders.

Yes, 3D printing is new technology and we have seen great advances in it over the last couple of years. I have 3D resin bodies in my stash that have never been available in cast resin and likely never will due to the cost of developing a master from which to cast. The beauty of 3D printing is that with some time spent massaging the files, one can have the models they could only dream of. For proof- see what Bill Geary is doing now that he's retired, mastering the art of 3D printing the stuff he wants.

I can see a market for both types of products, but much like other areas that are affected by evolution, more 3D printed items seem to be the way of the future. As the old saying goes....if you see something you like in resin, buy it today for it may not be there tomorrow.

[Oldmopars]

I can see both sides of things. I have a 3D printer, I do my own designs, I even sell some. It's not a cheap hobby to get into. A printer can be $300+. Resin is $25-75 per 1000mg. The act of designing can be daunting to many. 

However, getting into resin casting, to do it well, is not cheap either. Good pressure pots, silicon casting molds, the resin, is all costly too. Molds wear out. You have to master one in ever size you plan to sell. A casting is only as good as the master, making good masters is a real skill.

In 3d printing, we often design a part or engine, or whatever in full scale. I do all my engine designs in 1:1. That way if someone wants a 1:32 or a 1:8, it is just resized in the slicer. 

Evolution of the hobby, well yes. People aging out, possibly. Some are attempting to run a business and a full time job and finding that life has gotten in the way. 

I do think 10 years from now, the resin cast parts will be few, and overshadowed by 3D printed parts. When it comes to details, you just can't beat a 3D print, if the designer put them there. 

3D printing not for everyone,  nor is resin casting. I hope the aftermarket continues for many more years.

[Ace-Garageguy]

3D printing is wonderful technology. Wonderful. I'm not disputing that.

The absolute no-holds-barred BEST parts I have are 3D prints, and the single highest quality model I've ever seen in 1/24 scale, Bill Cunningham's Birdcage Maserati, is also primarily built of 3D prints.

These benefitted hugely from the high resolution possible from reasonably "affordable" liquid printers, and because of undercuts and extremely fine detail, could not have been made any other way.

But offerings like repops of '50s and '60s promos, truck cabs, some wheels and tires and engine parts, etc. simply do not require that resolution, and the old methods are entirely appropriate for those.

Yes, setting up to do GOOD resin casting has costs, but pressure pots and the like are one-time purchases. Molding and casting materials are hardly cost-prohibitive, and I'm pretty familiar with all of them.

Yes, silicone molds do have a finite life span, and will need to be replaced periodically, but so do printers.

And yes, masters for casting can be made by traditional methods that require extreme physical skills, but are ideal candidates for 3D printing themselves. Print the master, make a mold set, turn out copies in much less time than printing takes.

ALL the technologies have their place, and arguing against the continued viability of ANY of them is, in a word, stupid.

[Oldmopars]

5 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

3D printing is wonderful technology. Wonderful. I'm not disputing that.

The absolute no-holds-barred BEST parts I have are 3D prints, and the single highest quality model I've ever seen in 1/24 scale, Bill Cunningham's Birdcage Maserati, is also primarily built of 3D prints.

These benefitted hugely from the high resolution possible from reasonably "affordable" liquid printers, and because of undercuts and extremely fine detail, could not have been made any other way.

But offerings like repops of '50s and '60s promos, truck cabs, some wheels and tires and engine parts, etc. simply do not require that resolution, and the old methods are entirely appropriate for those.

Yes, setting up to do GOOD resin casting has costs, but pressure pots and the like are one-time purchases. Molding and casting materials are hardly cost-prohibitive, and I'm pretty familiar with all of them.

Yes, silicone molds do have a finite life span, and will need to be replaced periodically, but so do printers.

And yes, masters for casting can be made by traditional methods that require extreme physical skills, but are ideal candidates for 3D printing themselves. Print the master, make a mold set, turn out copies in much less time than printing takes.

ALL the technologies have their place, and arguing against the continued viability of ANY of them is, in a word, stupid.

I agree. As a matter of fact, I am looking in to the possibility of using both in the near future.  There are limitations to 3D printing. Somethings are difficult to get all sides to look right every time. I thinking about making one good master print, then seeing about having the rest cast. 

However as you pointed out, many of the great casters are closing up shop, so finding someone to cast my prints is not easy.

[Dave Van]

As a retired resin caster.........it is a TOUGH biz!!! The real world ROI is pretty bad.  

 

I bought my first 3D printed FULL kit. I bought it from a company that, in the past, had made resin kits. Having one of their resin kits and one of their 3D kits I admit I like the resin kit better. The 3D kit has some GREAT features but will require more work as far as prep work. 

The time, cost and effort to make GOOD resin is getting to high to make it 'fun' AND profitable. I think it's that simple. 

One of my resin kits.......

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

27 minutes ago, Oldmopars said:

I agree. As a matter of fact, I am looking in to the possibility of using both in the near future.  There are limitations to 3D printing. Somethings are difficult to get all sides to look right every time. I thinking about making one good master print, then seeing about having the rest cast. 

However as you pointed out, many of the great casters are closing up shop, so finding someone to cast my prints is not easy.

 

20 minutes ago, Dave Van said:

As a retired resin caster.........it is a TOUGH biz!!! The real world ROI is pretty bad.  

The time, cost and effort to make GOOD resin is getting to high to make it 'fun' AND profitable. I think it's that simple. 

The ROI depends primarily on charging enough to not have to work 24/7 to keep the lights on.

High quality resin parts can command high prices, and as the competition "ages out", opportunities open up.

I've done enough old-school mastering, mold-making, and casting of non-scale-model parts (real-world product development and patent models primarily) to know that though it is a somewhat "fiddly" business requiring focus and care at every step, in a clean well-organized dedicated workspace, it's not that hard.

This is one of the better tutorials I've seen to date. There's one one I like more, but I've apparently misfiled the address.

ONE CAVEAT: A printed master will have to be tough enough to withstand the mechanical stresses of demolding. Careful analysis of the physical characteristics of the fully-cured printing resin will need to be done, and section thicknesses adjusted as necessary.

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[StevenGuthmiller]

All that I can say is that I'm actually quite happy that I'm closer to the end of my modeling career than the beginning.

Call me an old curmudgeon, but I am now, and always will be, an "old school" modeler.

I don't use a lot of PE and almost no billet or brass.

I use very few resin and almost no 3-D printed parts to speak of, and I'm perfectly happy with that.

 

As I see it, 3-D printing is quickly beginning to crowd out resin, and I can see a future where it could eventually do the same to styrene kits as we know them.

I have no ability or desire to leap into entirely new mediums and techniques such as 3-D printing.

Not to say that I might not buy an occasional 3-D printed part, but there's virtually no chance that I'm going to jump into that quagmire with both feet.

 

I understand the "evolution", but I really have no desire to participate in it.

Just put me in a room with my boxes of plastic and Evergreen stock and I'm as happy as a gopher in soft dirt.

I'll leave the high tech stuff to all of you.

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by StevenGuthmiller

[Ace-Garageguy]

3 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

...Just put me in a room with my boxes of plastic and Evergreen stock and I'm as happy as a gopher in soft dirt.

Is that as happy as a clam? Asking for a friend.   

[doorsovdoon]

A lot of us here can easily cast parts and kits and do it on a regular basis, but not many have the rare and unusual kits and parts people want. I work in resin, have done for years making parts for classic 1-1 cars but that's because I have the rare parts to make moulds of. I could easily do model kits, but there's no point in me casting something you can find in the store for a few bucks. For someone who has never worked with resin before would not only have to learn the craft, which isn't cheap, but then look for the rare and expensive kits to cast. New blood in this field would require someone very dedicated to the hobby.

[Ace-Garageguy]

45 minutes ago, doorsovdoon said:

New blood in this field would require someone very dedicated to the hobby.

With 8 billion+ people on the planet, and 336 million+ in the USA alone, one would think there would be at least a few who met that criterion.  

Edited March 2, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[BlackSheep214]

No doubt 3D printed kits will cost more than resin.

im thinkimg logically since one must consider it will take more time, material expenses for 3D printing and the costs involved to create the kit may drive the price even higher than resin kits.

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Is that as happy as a clam? Asking for a friend.   

Happier!

 

 

 

 

Steve

[doorsovdoon]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

With 8 billion+ people on the planet, and 336 million+ in the USA alone, one would think there would be at least a few who met that criterion.  

Yes, of course, but how many of those are interested in the hobby enough to know it's a worthwhile venture? When I got in to resin and fibreglass I had no idea there was a such a popular demand for scale model casts. At the time, I hadn't built a model since the early 90's and thought the hobby was long dead until the Gestapo locked everyone up in their homes! Hopefully one good thing to come out of the last couple of years is the younger generation knowing what a lot of us didn't back then, that the hobby is well and truly still alive and certainly worth starting a cottage industry alongside it.

[Mark]

There are still a few good casters left.  Modelhaus made a BIG hole with their departure though, nobody will ever fill that.

The 3D print guys are taking the place of casters in regards to conversion parts.  More brain work in creating the files, less manual labor: no making masters, making molds, or pouring resin.  Press a button and wait awhile, and there's your part.  No air pockets, smaller sprues (pour gates and vents), no mold release.  They're working smart, not hard.  

Most casters underpriced their time resulting in burnout or their acquiring the attitude that they were doing the world a favor.  I got out before it reached that point, as I still like to attend shows and it's nice to do that without looking over my shoulder for people still waiting for parts they paid for.

[Ace-Garageguy]

9 minutes ago, Mark said:

Most casters underpriced their time resulting in burnout or their acquiring the attitude that they were doing the world a favor.

That is exactly where I was when I used to make aftermarket fiberglass parts for real cars. To be cost-competitive and get the work, I had to price the stuff so the resellers I contracted with could mark it up enough to make their profit. There are companies many of you would recognize that I made tooling and/or parts for.

But I was pretty much always behind the 8-ball financially, almost always running behind, and couldn't keep up with demand...partly because, though all my stuff was professional and righteous, my pricing was on par with mouth-breathing hackers who turned out trash.

When I got sick of the constant grind and raised my prices to the point demand fell WAY off, I ended up making more money for a lot less work, and had happy clients because they got their stuff on time.

If the quality is there, you can pretty much name your own price these days (within reason) because there just aren't many who can (or will) do top-line work.

If I was a young man knowing what I know now, there'd be no stopping me from staying in high-end model and real parts, and custom machine and fabrication work. 

[Mark]

No question now, if you can actually do things with your hands, there is good money to be made now.  Mike Rowe's podcasts and TV shows testify to that. 

Someone willing to spend 18 months to two years learning how to weld, for example, if they are willing to travel to find work they can easily pull down a six-figure income and pay off both their education and their equipment in a couple of years, as opposed to hoping other people pay for a college loan that might not get you a job.

My brother's son-in-law does drywall.  Last I heard, he's got as much work as he can handle (and he can handle a lot, he's not afraid of work) and actually has to turn work down on occasion.  Another in-law recruits automotive techs, and that's another area that needs good people.  For people who are willing to work and don't want an office job, the opportunities are out there right now.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Speaking of "name your own price if the quality is there", look at Singer.

You can bet any analyst looking at their "business case" in the beginning would have told 'em "if there was a market for rebuilt old Porsches selling for a half-million bucks, somebody would have done it already''.

Now they have a several-year backlog, a gorgeous new facility, and every craftsman in the place probably gets paid very well indeed...and no idiot managers like I've worked under occasionally, cracking the whip to get third-rate work out the door as quickly as possible.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[peteski]

5 hours ago, doorsovdoon said:

New blood in this field would require someone very dedicated to the hobby.

Not only that, but resin casting is an art form.  Someone has to be skilled and fastidious to produce good castings.  Norm from RMCoM or Don from Modelhaus are/were perfect examples.

Unfortunately (as Ace-Garage guy Bill often reminds us), craftsmanship and fastidiousness have for most part become a thing of the past.  There are many resin casters still out there, producing mediocre products.  I'm afraid that once those good casters retire, good resin castings will be a thing of the past.

Yes, 3D printing (either at home or someone selling printed parts) is the way of the future, but the quality is still not there.