Traditional A-V8, for the Race of Gentlemen (drag racing rules) group build

[Ace-Garageguy]

EDIT: As these things can be street-driven cars lightly prepped to drag (headlights removed, etc.) I figger it's appropriate to post here as a street roadster.

This thing's been making a little progress, so I thought I'd give it its own new WIP thread. Started many years ago as a gluebomb rescue / rework, it's been languishing, sad and lonely, until the RoG drag-racing themed group build was proposed. It is, of course, the ancient AMT '29 Ford roadster, originally issued in a double kit with the first tooling of the Ala Kart, and reissued many times. This one's molded in red, so it's not a first-issue, which was molded in white.

It came in already painted a somewhat pebbly, insipid yellow, and missing lotsa parts. I'm probably going to leave the yellow, but sand it with 1500 and possibly lightly polish. The bland banana yellow is typical of cheap Earl Scheib-type allover enamel paint jobs a lot of backyard rods of the period ended up with, and I'll be going for the low-gloss look these took on after a few years.

To accommodate the flathead V8, the frame lost its center crossmember and battery box.

The stock frame would have put the rear fenders pretty high relative to the tires. Can't have that (forgive the poor focus; my duh).

After careful measuring, I found that a simple mod to raise the crossmember at the rear of the rails was all that was required to get the tail down to where I wanted it. Fabbing the white "wedges" from rectangular tube stock would be the strongest, cleanest way to accomplish this on a real one too.

That dropped the fenders down over the glooey parts-box-sourced quickchange (already hung on an appropriate transverse spring)...though a fair bit of clearancing on the fender unit was necessary.

Resulting rear tire clearance will be fine even for narrow slicks, if the axle width is carefully fitted so as to allow movement up into the fenders on bump or hard acceleration.

Stance is where it needs to be now for the look I'm after, though the front is only mocked up at this point. More on that later

Edited March 19, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[bobthehobbyguy]

Great start. Interesting technique for lowering the rear. Keep up the good work.

[stinkybritches]

The stance is looking good. I'm looking forward to seeing where you go with the rest of it.

[cobraman]

I'm hooked !

[Ace-Garageguy]

8 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Great start. Interesting technique for lowering the rear. Keep up the good work.

 

3 hours ago, stinkybritches said:

The stance is looking good. I'm looking forward to seeing where you go with the rest of it.

 

3 hours ago, cobraman said:

I'm hooked !

Thanks for the interest and comments, gennelmen.    

[Calb56]

I am definitely looking forward to this build. I love the concept when you first mentioned it.

[Rocking Rodney Rat]

TROG rules says no whitewalls, no fenders, otherwise looks awesome.... -RRR

[Calb56]

1 minute ago, Rocking Rodney Rat said:

TROG rules says no whitewalls, no fenders, otherwise looks awesome.... -RRR

True, but the group build is for the TRoG California Drags. Different rules...

[Dennis Lacy]

Stance and proportions look killer, Bill! I want to build a full-scale one!!

[Ace-Garageguy]

21 hours ago, Calb56 said:

I am definitely looking forward to this build. I love the concept when you first mentioned it.

 

20 hours ago, Rocking Rodney Rat said:

TROG rules says no whitewalls, no fenders, otherwise looks awesome.... -RRR

 

13 hours ago, Dennis Lacy said:

Stance and proportions look killer, Bill! I want to build a full-scale one!!

Thanks once again for the interest and comments.

Always means a lot getting positive vibes from you too, Dennis, bein' a real-car builder an' all.   

EDIT: Engine, gearbox, and front suspension are on the bench. Photos within a couple days most likely.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

It's been taking a while to get beyond the mockup stage, as I needed to find a rear spring-over-axle setup, with stock-ish radius rods and a torque tube, and with juice brakes, with the wheel cylinders and bleeders on top, to copy...all so I can nail the rear ride height and axle width down with final parts, before moving to the front suspension and engine placement...

Got one...  

Edited March 19, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY

[Ace-Garageguy]

Just a little more info...this is the big "301" series Halibrand "champ car" rear end I'm using in the model...cause that's what I did the first mockup with...but axle bells that need aluminum adapters, and radius rods with forged ends (up-pointing axle-mount ears) for a spring-behind setup.

There's getting to be lotsa parts mix-n-matching on the model as this thing progresses...kinda like real.

Another build that started out to be a "quickie"...

[bluestringer]

Going to be a cool looking hot rod.

[Paul Payne]

Ace, thanks for sharing your depth of knowledge of real cars and parts, and your photos of them are an invaluable resource!

[alan barton]

Looks good Bill.  I do like your modification on the rear end, and yes, that would be a cool way to lower a Model A.  We have very strict regs here in Western Australia, especially forty years ago when I started building my roadster, and at the time we were not allowed to Zee the frame rails.  We can now, but I'm not sure I can be bothered anymore. Its got a decent rake although a few inches closer to the ground front and rear would be cool. If I do, I am going to seriously consider your idea.  It would be a lot more elegant and subtle than the traditional way.

Oh yeah, thank you for laying back the windshield on your model. As much as I always try to be positive on this forum, the little voices in my head scream out loud when I see yet another AMT or Monogram Model A with a perfectly vertical windshield.  Folks, Henry Ford laid them back to make them look better and you should too! End of rant.

Here's my roadster on a beautiful summer evening my the coast minutes from my house.

Cheers

Alan

[Mr. Metallic]

Ace, always great to see activity on your bench. I always learn something.

Hoping to jump into the RoG group build myself. Gotta get some of these current projects off the bench. But I am formulating a plan and gathering parts.

[Calb56]

1 hour ago, Mr. Metallic said:

Ace, always great to see activity on your bench. I always learn something.

Hoping to jump into the RoG group build myself. Gotta get some of these current projects off the bench. But I am formulating a plan and gathering parts.

Ace-Garageguy definitely is always teaching, I appreciate the information I've garnered from him for my own TRoG California Drags build.

I hope to see you jump in on the build as well.

[mchook]

Great build, I'm watching for sure.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Bunch of bits for the next few rounds include the glooey spring and axles I used on the mockup; the quickchange center section, carefully split apart; the chrome driveshaft, axle bells and radius arms from the old Revell '30 Model A kit; an engine assembly from the Revell '37 Ford pickup; and the red parts are sections of the floor removed earlier.

I stripped the floor sections with oven cleaner as an experiment, as the paint that was on the little car had the appearance of lacquer that had crazed slightly, and eaten into the plastic. I was kinda surprised it came off without too much trouble.

I stripped the chrome from the center section halves, "machined" the mating surfaces flat, glued 'em back together with the casting ribs in alignment, then cleaned up the side-cover holes and installed the de-chromed old Revell '30 axle tubes (after also removing the inboard "bell" sections from them). This is going to be a kinda "fiddly" big deal, because I want the rear end exactly the right width to allow the slicks I'm using to align correctly with the rear fenders with clearance for suspension travel, so little car would work in reality.

I replaced the axle tubes because the ones I'd used for the mockup were kinda grotty, glooy, and would need several mods to do what I want them to do. Any self-respecting A-V8 builder would have swapped the old mechanical brakes for later Ford "juice" (hydraulic) brakes, and the white backing plates are '40 or '48 Ford juice pieces. The axle is shown loosely assembled with the old-style mechanical backing plates still attached to the radius arms from the early Revell '30 Ford. This will change. The trans is a '37 LaSalle unit from a Challenger One kit. Adapting these gearboxes to work with the Ford "closed" driveshaft was pretty common, and that's what's being considered here.

Keeping the axle tubes straight is important to having the tires end up in the right places, so before gluing the rear end together, I bored it for a plastic centering bushing that would hold everything square and parallel, with a brass sleeve and a steel axle installed to jig the ends in place. It also makes the assembly much stronger, as the different plastics back here weren't playing very nice together.

The axle housing assembly was primed, masked, and painted with the center left primer gray...a reasonable representation of an oxidized aluminum casting (though I'm going to try to get it a little better). I used Microscale "MicroMask" for the first time here, and I'm really happy with it. Whatever doesn't easily peel off is water soluble, and scrubbing with a toothbrush yields a nice crisp edge. The black on the axle tubes is a little grainier than I wanted, but so many of these were rust pitted by this time in their lives (and just painted over), I'm not going to sweat it.

The buggy spring was liberated from the mystery parts I used for the mockup, cleaned up, and treated to a reinforcing leaf of .020" styrene strip...which made a huge difference in strength, believe it or not.

Next shot shows the buggy spring with ears on the ends, representing the shackle brackets as shown in an earlier reference shot. Not going for rivet-counting perfection, just a reasonable representation I can live with. The radius arms have been carefully separated from the mechanical-style backing plates and the RH side has been mated with a correctly "clocked" juice-style backing plate ("clocking" just means the locations of the brake lines and parking brake cable inlets were considered, so if I decide to represent all that stuff, it'll be in the right places to work with this spring setup). These later style plates had so be sleeved with styrene tube to keep the axle tubes centered, and the one above the axle shows the sleeve sticking out prior to trimming. The driveshaft has been drilled and pinned to mate with the QC housing, and general alignment is being considered here. The radius arm doesn't hit the driveshaft housing in the right place with the QC center section installed, but, as the driveshaft will need to be modded to fit the engine anyway, it doesn't matter. The QC cover has been glued to a piece of styrene rod so I wouldn't lose it down the drain during stripping, but I decided to leave it chrome as it looks more like polished aluminum.

I had to get a little fancier with the sleeves in the juice-style backing plates to keep them square with the axle tube, and this shot also shows the LH backing plate assembled to its radius arm. If my measuring is correct, the ears on the ends of the buggy spring will locate the backing plates at the right width for the tires to fit the fenders, and the radius arms to just clear the tire edges.

Everything loosely assembled (prior to trimming the LH sleeve). Now to check it with wheels and tires against the chassis and fenders...

Edited April 26, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Bainford]

Really digging this one, Bill. I appreciate the attention to detail and engineering considerations. I have a couple of ‘someday’ hot rod projects I’m preparing for, and taking notes. 
BYW, any idea of the origin of the QC you’re using?

[bobthehobbyguy]

Coming along nicely. Glad to see you getting some bench time. I always pick up some great tips from your projects.

[Dennis Lacy]

Excellent job bashing together the quick change axle. We do what we gotta do!

😎

[bill-e-boy]

Looking kool Bill, like Dennis said "We do what we gotta do!"

One day I hope I can kitbash something that will fall together without lots of work to make it work and look good - I am still waiting for the day

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

On 4/26/2023 at 8:40 PM, Bainford said:

...BYW, any idea of the origin of the QC you’re using?

Thanks for your interest and comments. The QC is in several of the old Revellogram show car hot-rods like the Paddy Wagon, Ice T, and Pie Wagon. It represents the big 301-series "champ car" Halibrand, and is larger than the model-A (101 series) and V8 (201 series).

These kits are marked 1/24, and the unit may be a little bit on the big side, but it looks good.

   (not my model)

There are a pair of beautiful 1/25 champ-car Halibrands in the Revell Tommy Ivo Showboat kit, and they're easier to use in a rod, as the axle bells are separate parts.

I haven't measured any of the QCs to check the scale dimensions.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy
TYPO

[Ace-Garageguy]

The 60+ year old AMT vinyl tires cleaned up to look like new with a Comet-toothbrush-hot-water scrub. They'll be bead-blasted to take the sheen back down to look like real rubber.

Using the frame and fender unit as a fixture to reinstall part of the floor that had to be modified to clear the raised rear crossmember, necessary to lower the car. Considering kit-sourced firewall options too. The black one, from the original Ala Kart, was heavily glooed to the body. The gray one is the "stock" unit from the AMT '29 kit that accompanied the Ala Kart. I need to get more recess on the firewall to accommodate the flathead V8 better, and more closely resemble a real firewall.

Firewall location and recess needs to be determined along with final engine placement, so the driveshaft length can be dialed in.

Frame sitting up on its back feet, checking tread width, and making sure the radius arms clear the frame rails AND the edges of the slicks. Using an "open" driveline would allow "splitting the wishbones" in the rear, or replacing them entirely, but I want to keep more in the spirit of how early A-V8s were built. And splitting the wishbones on a closed driveline in reality can often lead to binding during suspension travel, broken front UJs, driveshafts, or transmissions.

It looks like the measuring worked out, as the tread width is dead on where it needs to be for the slicks to have reasonable travel up into the fenders...just like the first mockup.

With the chassis inverted, I can mark the locations of the brackets the ends of the split front wishbones need to attach to. The front axle and bones are modified from the ancient Revell '30 Ford woody and its derivatives. Engine pieces from the 8BA sourced from the Revellogram '50 Ford pickup.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy