Jump to content
Model Cars Magazine Forum
Synister

Paint Booths & Safe Ventilation?

Recommended Posts

I have a charcoal filtered, paper filtered suction box, purchased from an air filtration company. The paper filter can be replaced by myself, but the charcoal portion has to be serviced by the company. It was designed for the purpose of cleansing the air of paint fumes and is a stand alone unit. I incorporated it into my paint booth. The purchase price at the time I bought it was $50, and the servicing of the charcoal filter is $15 I have it serviced every 6 months. Paper filters are changed every 2 paint jobs.

That's one of the most useful paragraphs I've read on here in a long time. Thanks for the info on in-door filtration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is this an acrylic lacquer, acrylic enamel or just straight acrylic paint? What are you using for thinner, alcohol base or is it solvent based? The issue sounds like it could be the thinner you are using? I looked up MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for Gunze Sangyo

Paints, they evidently don't or won't publish them.

Your respirator issue could be related to the filter not being rated for the type material you are spraying. See the link for 3M Filter cartridges below.

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=66666UF6EVsSyXTtOXMEm8TEEVtQEVs6EVs6EVs6E666666--&fn=Respiratory%20Selector%20V5.pdf

Other respirator issues can be traced to fitment issues. Do you have a beard? When you close off the filter cartridge with the palms of your hands and breath in are you sucking in air or does the respirator body suck in like it's supposed to? If you are sucking air the respirator is too large for your facial structure, get fitted for a smaller filter. Are the rubber exhaust vents working properly, they can become twisted to the point you are drawing outside air through the exhaust.

If you are spraying acrylic (water base) then a particulate mask could be used as the alcohol in most acrylic thinners isn't that harmful in the amount that you are being exposed to.

Another clue you mention is that the paint still has an odor after a month of curing, most paints gas out sooner than that. There could even be some chemical sensitivity issue going on. Ivan, do you by chance have allergies? Some people with allergies have a difficult time working around or with chemicals and paints in general.

I am not familiar at all with the type paint that you are spraying, I am however familiar with respirator use and protecting myself from most types of paints. I've also used respirators from the basic cartridge filter types up to the supplied air respirators for my job to mitigate exposure from lead, paint and other chemicals.

Could someone with experience with the Gunze paints chime in. Interested in your experience with this paint. Do we have any Auto Body Painters who might have any ideas?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I am concerned the paint is acrylic. I am spraying the aqueous line of paints. The thinner I use is the gunze one (AQUEOUS HOBBY THINNER). I check if the mask is fitting correctly every time before spraying. The only two problems I can imagine are the lack of glasses and gloves and the poor ventilation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ivan I use a welding respirator when I paint. it does not filter as much as a paint respirator but it works great for me. I do not use gloves or glasses. You may not be getting enough air to breath. you could use a small fan to pull the fumes away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use blue painters tape to seal the edges of the mask to my face and upper nose. As long as you're not sweating, it holds very well and removes easily when job is done. No fumes leak in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ivan, That's what I thought when you said Acrylic Paint. The Acrylic thinner that I use is an alcohol base to it, which is what I would imagine is in most. All I ever use when spraying Acrylics through my airbrushes is a particle or dust mask. I don't use a respirator unless I'm shooting lacquer thinner or hotter. The alcohol in he acrylic thinner is rubbing alcohol, so it isn't something that is going to get you looped from the fumes. Unless you are shooting to the point that there is more paint fumes than oxygen in the room there should be little to no issue. You certain that you are not sensitive to paint? Some people are or do get to the point they are.

1.) Work on venting the area you are spraying paint in to get good air exchange without causing drafts which could cause paint drift.

2.) Use gloves to protect your skin from paint and alcohol drying your skin out.

3.) Work on setting up some sort of paint booth which draws the fumes out of the room.

Edited by Skip

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I am concerned the paint is acrylic. I am spraying the aqueous line of paints. The thinner I use is the gunze one (AQUEOUS HOBBY THINNER). I check if the mask is fitting correctly every time before spraying. The only two problems I can imagine are the lack of glasses and gloves and the poor ventilation.

You've half answered your own question, the key is the poor ventilation. Not having a picture of your painting area to see how small it is, I'm going to say that you need to get two small fans to push bad air out and another to pull fresh air in. My respirator is a full face type mask and I use latex gloves when I prime and paint, I too use acrylics and have not experienced any type of problems with dizziness due to poor air circulation, as I have a medium sized spray booth with a good filter and a really powerful squirrel cage fan to pull the fumes to the outside. Can you post a picture of your painting space ?

Edited by kitbash1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't want to put a vent through the wall and didn't have a window near where my spray booth is. I use an area in the basement that I use to store all the garden tools and such. There is a door to the outside, and my spray both is on a shelf right next to the door. I use a dryer vent hose from Home Depot that I just stick out the door when I'm spraying. Just keep the door closed except for enough room to put the dryer hose through. This may not be the most ideal, but it has work great so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read an article in Scale Auto years back about using a bucket of charcoal and water, with the end of the vent tubing placed down inside the charcoal. I have the mag here somewhere. If I come acros it ill scan the diagram for you. Might want to ask around the SA forum, someone there may know.

Edited by Evil Appetite

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a large paint booth with a well sealed Plexiglas door. the only problem with it is it's outside. We are now into the low 100's to the high's around 120 outside.

The question I have is:

I build my models in 70 degree temp. Would it mess up the paint if I prepped the parts and mixed the paint then take them out and spray them and bring them back in right away? :unsure:

Would you please EMAIL me at ernie-p@cox.net with any comment or ideas. I do not have access to a computer on a regular basis.

Edited by oldman23

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

I used to do all the time Ernie. Not in 100 plus degree weather. But, the humidity here can get unbearable sometimes. If your paint blushes when you come back inside, don't worry, it will go away. I now paint my models in front of a box fan in the window of my model room. It's the best setup I've used yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey guys I built a paint booth using a 50 l plastic storage tub and i used a bathroom ventilation ceiling fan purchased at Lowes mounted

to the back of the plastic tub with a 3 inch flex hose out the window in front of the fan i placed an ordinary furnace filter the fan motor is

in the air stream shld I be worried abt EXPLOSIONS here ??? I use acrylics and lacquers both I tryied it with some acrylic tamiya and it

works just great only cost me 35 bucks to build.Any thoughts and advice will be welcomed.

Rudy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although a bathroom vent may be sealed against moisture, that doesn't mean fumes also, especially if the fan is not completely sealed from the same air you are spraying in, the fumes can still get to the motor externally.

The acrylics are no worry, but the lacquers or enamels , yes. Just something to think about

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the motor is in the air stream and you use any type paint that is flammable this is a HAZARD!!! Fans for bathrooms or kitchen applications are shaded pole motors and have A Electromotive Force between the Rotor and Stator that creates a constant spark between the two components. Will you BLOW the house up!!!!! I doubt it,,, but there is a chance of fire. Best practice for building a booth!!!! Keep the motor out of the air stream. jwrass

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey guys thanks for the advice so with some mods I came up with this took the fan motor outa the box and mounted it through the back of the box so shld be no worries about fumes and sparks mixin from the motor when i turned it on I placed a piece of paper on the filter and it stuck to it like glue so should vent any fumes id say total cost 20 bucks for the ceiling fan assembly 6.99 for the plastic tub and 7.99 for the flex hose and 3 12 by 20 furnace filters for 4.50 may not be pretty but its functional lol once again thanks for the advice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kind of putting the cart before the horse to build the booth then ask for suggestions isn't it?

The safety aspect has been discussed to death, search for paint booth and you will find a million threads arguing about the proper fan to use.

Flex hose has about 3x the resistance to air flow as straight metal ducting and that little 180 you have it doing right on top of the booth is the equivalent of adding about 40 feet of duct. You will get better airflow if you used a straight piece of duct and only used the flex right at the end (better to use a metal curve, but admittedly the flex is much easier to work with). At the very least straighten the flex line to remove any unnecessary curves and cut off any unneeded remainder duct. It may draw the fumes out of the box well, but all the drag in the duct means it will slow down the flow allowing fumes and particles to build up in the flex line and that is really where the hazard comes in by concentrating the fumes.

Edited by Aaronw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kind of putting the cart before the horse to build the booth then ask for suggestions isn't it?

The safety aspect has been discussed to death, search for paint booth and you will find a million threads arguing about the proper fan to use.

Flex hose has about 3x the resistance to air flow as straight metal ducting and that little 180 you have it doing right on top of the booth is the equivalent of adding about 40 feet of duct. You will get better airflow if you used a straight piece of duct and only used the flex right at the end (better to use a metal curve, but admittedly the flex is much easier to work with). At the very least straighten the flex line to remove any unnecessary curves and cut off any unneeded remainder duct. It may draw the fumes out of the box well, but all the drag in the duct means it will slow down the flow allowing fumes and particles to build up in the flex line and that is really where the hazard comes in by concentrating the fumes.

Aaron,

Mere logic tells me that unless the flex tubing COMPLETELY stalls the air flow, the vapors (the smell, if you will) won't be stalled at all. As for the paint particulates, that's what filters are for! My Pace Peacemaker uses a very fine furnace filter which captures virtually all paint particulates--I have yet to be able to wipe any visible paint particles out of the inside of the dryer hose (flex tubing) that mine is fitted with.

Allow me if you will: My oldest nephew has perhaps the largest cabinet/furniture making shop here in my city. Using, as he does, clear acrylic lacquers for furniture finishing (he does very high-end custom furniture), along with having sanders, table, radial arm and scroll saws, along with a planer, shaper and router), he's very knowledgeable about the "explosion/fire" hazards in his operation--and I as well do too, from my several years as Human Resources Director for an Essex Group Wire Assembly Division plant here back 40 years ago (which included my being the safety manager there as well), the fire hazard from paint comes in both the vapors (solvents) and "finely divided flammable particles" --paint overspray.. Both are hazards, the degree of which is related to the volume of paint or other flammable finishes used. When you read of say, a furniture factory going up in flames, or a grain elevator or flour mill exploding, it's not from some sort of solvent vapors, it's the finely divided (powdered) flammable material in ductwork, etc, that blew up! For that reason alone, ANY spray booth should include a decent quality furnace filter, to capture the paint dust, that finely divided, flammable overspray dust!

While of course, in any operation where large volumes of paint or other finishes are sprayed, the hazards (health, fire, explosion, and environmental) can, and are often, serious--for the vast majority of us modelers, those hazards are much, much smaller. Consider this, If one uses most any commonly available airbrush, the ordinary color jars attached are either 1/2 or 3/4 oz. Now, the vast majority of the material poured into the color jar (or gravity reservoir for that matter) isn't paint (the source of the solids, the overspray powder if you will), it's the thinner or solvent. 1/2 fluid ounce? That's about 2 tablespoons of the stuff, which is not at all a large quantity, if one thinks about it. So, for us modelers, it's not so much the particulate matter, as it is the solvents, where fire/explosion/potential health hazards are concerned (talking about ordinary enamels or lacquers here, NOT catalyzed urethanes or epoxy finishes--those are animals of an entirely different sort!). Thus, if solvent vapors (fumes) are to be the only consideration as for removal from the ambient air in a model building space/room, then that doesn't require any filtration--just put up with whatever paint dust "stains" on the outside of the house and be done with it.

However, if particulates are a problem that needs to be handled, and of course, in just about anyone's house, or apartment, the paint overspray (dust) is--most wives are not happy about this, and certainly in an apartment, most landlords are not going to be very lenient about that come move-out time--it can create a cleanup charge that can easily negate the cheap price of a "low buck" concept for an exhaust system (believe me, as an apartment dweller for the past more than 20 years, I've been there, done that, got the tee-shirt!). So, a paint booth exhaust setup really needs to have a blower with sufficient power to pull the vast majority of overspray into it, with a decent quality filter to capture all the overspray particulates, and still pass enough air flow to draw all the solvent fumes (the smell) to the outside. In addition, ANY such electric blower simply needs to be explosion proof. Just because a cheap, open-frame electric motor is outside of the air flow of whatever "booth" is used, either commercially made, or homebuilt, it doesn't mean that any explosion hazard has been removed. Any electric motor, brushless or not, can create static electricity, which if there is something in the air to make a spark (think miniature lightning strike) possible, it can, and sometimes (even if rare) can do just that! Consider this: If one is a smoker, and smokes indoors, would you use a rattle can of paint with a a lit cigarette in your lips or even in an ashtray nearby? Most likely, absent a death wish, most likely not.

Now, a Pace Peacekeeper spray booth might seem expensive, but they are the best around, especially if one wants a professionallly built cabinet (sheet metal fabrication ain't completely cheap--if you've ever had to have an HVAC system installed in your house--but the cabinet is only a part of the equation. There is that sealed-motor, squirrel cage fan to be considered--go to Grainger--they sell 'em, and in fact, that is exactly where Pace got the one they included with mine! Now, a sealed motor-powered squirrel cage blower used for a model spray booth will likely outlive most of us modelers (after all, when's the last time you had to have the one in your gas furnace replaced? Hmmmm?), they last for YEARS! Given the intermittent use such unit gets in a model spray booth, from where I sit, that's a once in a lifetime buy (and most all here have heard that said about air compressors and airbrushes, right?). Considering that if you are a homeowner, more than likely your house and its contents are valued at upwards of 100-grand or more (even if you live in an apartment, to replace all your belongings there probably will reach $25K at least!), isn't a hundred dollars or so well worth it, if it protects your much larger investment? (Hint: It doesn't take an Bachelor's Degree in accounting to answer that question!). Add into the equation the peace and quiet where wives, significant others, or even neighbors if you live in an apartment building having one common HVAC system for the entire building--all those around you will appreciate it, and model car building can proceed in peace.

Total cost of my installing a spray booth here (I already had a Skil Saw, and an electric drill), over and above the cost of my spray booth (I did buy a Pace, but you can build your own booth, if that's your choice): Plywood shelf from Menard's for cutting down to fit in a window when the sash is raised--$13.00. Dryer Hose & vent--approximately $15. Hole saw for electric drill--$30. Total installation cost--approximatelyh $48. Whether one opts for a manufactured spray booth or you build your own, though--just paying attention to the best, and most appropriate components for the job can pay HUGE dividends downroad--I would NEVER bother with any sort of blower/motor that was not the safest possible here!--along with the dryer hose and vent.

In the bottom line, I have a very large apartment (almost 1000 sq ft) in the upstairs of an older house, with two apartments below me--one occupied by a very pleasant but very persnickety older woman who has the reputation of complaining about anything and everything--she's yet to even notice that I am spraying lacquers on model cars RIGHT over her head, day or night!--I have yet to hear any complaints for either neighbor, and I've been shooting paint on model cars in this place for going on five years, so I must be doing something right! When I was married (long story there, covering 20 years), my then wife would have kicked up a fuss had I been painting model cars inside the house without benefit of the type of system I have today--so there are benefits--just don't go cheap for the sake of cheap, spend the money to get a system that does the job, including being a safe and effective system--for your protection, and the safety and happiness of those who share your living space.

Phew, 'nuff said!

Art

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rudy, I responded to this post before you posted your pictures, That's quite the contraption you have there!!! My day profession is as a Sales Engineer for one of the largest producers of Heating Air Conditioning and Refrigeration (HVAC) equipment. I ran some Air Calculations at lunch for grins to show the air flow loss of Round Galvanized Pipe VS Flex. In my field as many others their are many acronyms and I will keep this as simple as possible. Pressures in any device that are moving air are measured in Inches of Water Column (W.C.) Lets deal with the forces you have in play here.

CFM = Cubic Feet per Minute. ( how many cubic feet can a fan move in one minute at a prescribed static pressure) Fans are rated in this measure. Bathroom Ventilation Fans like you have are typically 70-150 CFM

Static Pressure = Force applied to the pipe by the air from the fan. Static pressure creates friction , many times you will see this stated as friction loss

Velocity Pressure = Speed at which the air moves in the pipe, measured In Feet Per Minute.

Their are various types of pressure rating for different applications. Residential furnaces and exhaust fans are in the low pressure class.

Static pressure in these systems is based on 0.10" of Water Column. The calculations I did were for static pressure (friction loss) because that is the biggest problem I see with your Anaconda.

Calculations were done on 4" Galv VS 4" Flex at a 10' length. Flex was in a linear plane pulled taught. Galv- Total Pressure Loss = 0.065 wc. Flex- Total Pressure Loss = 0.095 wc. As you can see their is a 30% loss in the Flex VS Galv. Now throw a few kinks and elbows in their and I could blow wind harder than the air that will be moved with all that flex. Best practices in the HVAC industry is to use flex only at the end of a run pulled taught and no more that 10'. That is for all low pressure systems be it Residential or Commercial.

Art makes some great points, I personally witnessed the aftermath of a sugar silo explosion at the Nestle Co, It looked like a war zone.

With regard to the collection of fumes and particles as a hazard there are two ways to look at that. 1) If you don't have a filter well then yes you will have particulates in the discharge. The filter in the picture is not adequate, you need a pleated type filter, however this will increase the pressure drop across the filter resulting in less sucking power. 2) If the pressure is less (negative) in the booth and related connections with relationship to the space you are spraying in I don't see a problem.

The fan blades on your unit look really strange to me, similar to a forward incline fan, what is it that you are using? Most all of the residential equipment I have seen use Forward Curved fan blades ( the blades look like a Half Moon)

I have to agree with Art. Make a really good one or buy one. Keep this in mind!!!! I don't care how good of booth you buy or make, if it's not properly vented it won't perform!!!!

I hope this helps, jwrass

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I have recently moved, and have a entire room to use for a build station. This is great news however, unlike my previous spot which was an outdoor storage building, I have to vent this paint booth out the bedroom window. I have walked around Home Depot twice now looking for a easy way to do this but keep coming up empty.

Here are a few photos (from my cell) that show what I am working with. The preferred setup would be something I can connect both hoses to and slide in the window frame.

paintbooth-XL.jpg

paintbooth2-XL.jpg

Any tips, suggestions etc would be greatly appreciated!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stack them on top of each other so the window closes more. Use some thick clear plastic or plywood cut the size of the open window and install 2 dryer vents (wall vents) in it. Add weather stripping around the premier to seal it up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are handy enough with a saw (and can use it in your new digs) you have many options . What James has said will work fine.

Are you going to leave it in the window or take it out when you are done?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Hose-Exhaust-Extension-For-Airbrush-Craft-Spray-Booth-Odor-Extractor-Paint-60-/290874658920?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b97b1068

This is a hose kit for a single exhaust , you might need two. Not the cheapest but give it a look for a different option. This would leave more of the window light in, and harder for the pesky lookie loos from seeing what you have in the window.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey boys ive dicieded im going to build a booth over my holidays. I understand all the importance of ventilation and airflow in a room. But my main concern is how much cfm is needed to pull over spray from rattle cans into a furnace filter?

My booth is planned at having 24"w x 18"h x 18" depth.

Thanks in advance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use a 100 cfm bilge blower in a booth that's 2' x 3' x 3'. Works great for me. They're used to remove gases from inside the bilge of a boat. They're 12 volt so you'd need a power supply to run it. I use one from an old computer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ive bèen thinking blige blowers for a while. So 100 cfm pulls in all thr overspray? I plan on using an airbrush most of the time but rattle cans mainly for primer and a few of the one coat laquers from testors from time to time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...