The masters challenge.

[Corvette.Jeff]

I was just reading the thread about "the masters challenge" i've never heard about it before today(of course i havent been in the model car world that long) Has anybody here ever been? it'd be cool to see some photos if anybody has some.

Maybe we could start it back up?! and actually make a set of guidlines and rules though...

Jeff.

[Modelmartin]

It's kind of hard to start it back up since it was never held! They did have a full set of rules all written up. I don't know exactly why they cancelled it so early in the game. It's a shame. I would have been there with bells on!

[Jeff Sauber]

I'm not sure why it was cancelled, but I heard that the "Invite only" was creating alot of problems as well as a few of the other rules.

Alot of folks just weren't too happy about a restricted participants list....I saw that list several times and alot of the names on that list are very good builders, but I'd hardly call some of them "the best in the world".

I also noticed alot of really great builders who weren't mentioned on the list who should have been if they were really serious about inviting "the best out there".

I dunno, we already have the International GSL shows which pretty much represent the highest level of model competition, so I'm not sure that trying to add another high end contest is going to do very much for the hobby, other than to stroke a few egos.

Edited November 30, 2009 by J. Sauber

[Harry P.]

I'm not sure why it was cancelled, but I heard that the "Invite only" was creating alot of problems as well as a few of the other rules.

Alot of folks just weren't too happy about a restricted participants list....I saw that list several times and alot of the names on that list are very good builders, but I'd hardly call some of them "the best in the world".

I also noticed alot of really great builders who weren't mentioned on the list who should have been if they were really serious about inviting "the best out there".

I dunno, we already have the GSL shows which pretty much represent the highest level of model competition, so I'm not sure that trying to add another high end contest is going to do very much for the hobby, other than to stroke a few egos.

I've never heard of a contest that's only open to certain "invited" participants. Talk about the ultimate in snobbery! And like Jeff pointed out, the very idea of a list of people "worthy" enough to be invited sounds like nothing but elitism. How does an event like that do anything to further the hobby? It's just the opposite... it's saying "we only care about the people we think are good enough to participate, screw the rest of you." What kind of an attitude is that?

A bad idea, if you ask me...

[charlie8575]

I see both sides of the good/bad to be invitation only. I tend to agree that the exclusivity is a little pretentious for a model contest, but to showcase the best say, ten or twenty builders in the country would be spectacular.

But...aren't most of the Concours events for 1:1 cars like that? And I most certainly don't hear anyone complain about that, and that most certainly is elitist! I don't see the cruise night at Joe's going that way, or large contests/shows like NNLs or the MassCar show.

But, I see that as being a way to help hold what can be described as a platinum standard. The best of the best. I think it would be a fantastic show to witness, even if just in a magazine.

Charlie Larkin

Edited November 30, 2009 by charlie8575

[E St. Kruiser50]

First off, BEFORE EVERYONE HERE GETS ALL FIRED UP - LET'S GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT.

I have my invitation packet in front of me here, sent to me in 2006 by the administrators, Dan Baker and Bob Wick.

There were 157 names of people thay had chosen to participate, BUT WAS NOT EXCLUSIVE TO OTHERS.

At the top of the list is a statement by Dan and Bob.

QUOTE;

This is a list of accomplished builders initially invited to participate in The Masters challange Invitational. Although substantial effort has been made to include all builders qualified to participate in the Challange, we do not presume that this list is all-inclusive, and we welcome recommendations for any additional builder(s) who should be invited. Please contact us with your suggestions for additional competitors. END QUOTE

Dan Baker

Bob Wick

The initial registration fee was $100, and the Contest was to be presented by the International Model car Builders Museum - administrated by Mark Gustafson.

The idea wasn't meant to be fueled by ego's or arrogance, it was meant to help stimulate the hobby and interest from builders at all stages in their hobby.

For whatever reason, the interest never surfaced and the idea and the event never got off the ground, and was mostly forgotten about - until now.

I hope this isn't going to become another thread that turns into a "Rant" , there's already way too much of that here already about what is fair and what isn't.

Time to build some TOYZ

[Ryan Quantz]

But...aren't most of the Concours events for 1:1 cars like that? And I most certainly don't hear anyone complain about that, and that most certainly is elitist!

Well, I think that those 1:1 Concours car shows (and a lot of other car shows) cannot be compared against a model car show. In the 1:1 world, you are usually putting up one person's checkbook against another's, not the physical capabilities of one person building a car against another. We all know that in a lot of these snooty Concours car shows that most of those cars are bought and paid for and trailered to and fro- NOT built in Joe Schmoe's garage. Still elitist, but I don't think they can compare...

[Modelmartin]

I've never heard of a contest that's only open to certain "invited" participants. Talk about the ultimate in snobbery! And like Jeff pointed out, the very idea of a list of people "worthy" enough to be invited sounds like nothing but elitism. How does an event like that do anything to further the hobby? It's just the opposite... it's saying "we only care about the people we think are good enough to participate, screw the rest of you." What kind of an attitude is that?

A bad idea, if you ask me...

That's like saying that Formula One racing is a bad idea because it is only the top teams and drivers. This contest was meant to cater to the very best builders. I don't see the problem with that. There are lots and lots of contests at every level below that and then we have NNLs for those who don't want to compete. There were a number of people on the invite list who were not capable of being competitive but were invited because the organisers were trying to be inclusive in their own way.

In hindsight the invitional aspect was a bad idea P.R.-wise. The $100 entry fee and the entrant limited to one model would weed out all but the most serious.

[Harry P.]

That's like saying that Formula One racing is a bad idea because it is only the top teams and drivers. This contest was meant to cater to the very best builders. I don't see the problem with that.

You're comparing apples and oranges here. In all pro sports, the teams are made up of the "best of the best"... but the playoffs or the championships aren't invitation-only. Everyone gets a shot. Imagine if MLB announced that the 2010 World Series will be played by the Yankees and the Phillies, no other teams need apply.

I know that's not exactly a head-to-head analogy either... but I guess I just don't like the idea of an "invitation-only" contest. It seems so snobby and elitist. Maybe the fact that the thing sort of fizzled out without ever happening tells us something?

[Jon Cole]

As far as a contest featuring the best in the hobby, that is what I think of when I think of the GSL contest. I believe it is held every other year, and is quite prestigous, without being exclusive. Anyone can enter, but we can expect to see high caliber builds.

That's my take on it.

Some day I hope to go. I have never attended, so if my info is not 100% spot-on, please correct me.

[E St. Kruiser50]

They couldn't have been too "elietist" ,, or fussy for that matter ,,, after all,, they did invite me. LOL

Heck, I'm lucky if I get the engine block halves glued together right.

I'm no "Treehugger Dave" or "Bill Geary".

Who say's I get my engine block halves glued together right??

I'm just a "HACK" like Bob Downey .

I LOVE THIS PLACE

[E St. Kruiser50]

... the idea of an "invitation-only" contest. It seems so snobby and elitist.

So Harry - What's so wrong with "Snobby and Elitist"??

If it wasn't for the "Snobbys and Elitists", the whiners and complainers wouldn't have anything to "Gripe" about .

Seems like they serve a very important function .

Edited November 30, 2009 by Treehugger Dave

[RodBurNeR]

I understand what the plan is behind it, but the thing that gets me is just because someone's model made it into a magazine doesn't make them a "master" or "accomplished" builder. I think at times we are really taking this hobby way too seriously. Life outside our small community doesn't even realize we exist....yet to ourselves there are kings and peasants. What is it with "noted" modelers anyways? I thought we all did this for fun, but now it feels like we will get a story read to us by a fireplace about how so and so was a noted modeler. I am sorry for the tone of my reply, but it's really getting ridiculous and people are blind to it.

Edited November 30, 2009 by awbcrazy

[E St. Kruiser50]

I understand what the plan is behind it, but the thing that gets me is just because someone's model made it into a magazine doesn't make them a "master" builder. I think at times we are really taking this hobby way too seriously. Life outside our small community doesn't even realize we exist....yet to ourselves there are kings and peasants.

WELL SPOKEN BOB .

Most adults, AND EVEN SOME KIDS, don't get why grown men play with model cars - AND THEN MANY HERE TRY TO MAKE SOMETHING ELITIST ABOUT THIS MOSTLY UNKNOWN HOBBY - GO FIGURE .

Glad many of us have a real life and friends beyond this computor and this hobby - THANK YOU GOD

[Modelmartin]

I understand what the plan is behind it, but the thing that gets me is just because someone's model made it into a magazine doesn't make them a "master" or "accomplished" builder. I think at times we are really taking this hobby way too seriously. Life outside our small community doesn't even realize we exist....yet to ourselves there are kings and peasants. What is it with "noted" modelers anyways? I thought we all did this for fun, but now it feels like we will get a story read to us by a fireplace about how so and so was a noted modeler. I am sorry for the tone of my reply, but it's really getting ridiculous and people are blind to it.

I take my model building seriously , I just don't take myself too seriously .

I don't really understand what you are getting at with your comments. Most top tier builders I have met are real nice, open, friendly folks. Most of the Egos are also-rans in the model building department. They usually don't stick around the hobby a real long time because their ego needs won't be satisfied. The problem with model builders is the same problem the human race has - we come in all shapes and sizes and personalities. I have seen all kinds of people ripping on other people for no good reason usually because they misunderstand each other. Just look at the recent Sauber/Thibodeau dust-up!

The fact that a certain group of people want a very high caliber contest doesn't diminish those who build at a more basic level. It seems that at times people are threatened by that idea. It is almost like they have a chip on their shoulder. I am NOT speaking of you, Bob. I am speaking in more general terms based on many years of observation of that most curious primate, the Human being!

Harry, I did say that the invitational aspect was a bad PR move in hindsight. People who look for the negative and get their egos boosted by tearing down others really went to town on that aspect of it. A simple reading of the rules showed how easy it was to get invited. I had several people ask me and I sent their names along. I offered to nominate several good builders I knew who weren't on the national "radar". People assumed that the organisers were up to something when a simple inquiry would have have cleared things up.

It's really too bad that The Master's Challenge was stillborn. I was very disappointed.

[Harry P.]

Harry, I did say that the invitational aspect was a bad PR move in hindsight. People who look for the negative and get their egos boosted by tearing down others really went to town on that aspect of it. A simple reading of the rules showed how easy it was to get invited. I had several people ask me and I sent their names along. I offered to nominate several good builders I knew who weren't on the national "radar". People assumed that the organisers were up to something when a simple inquiry would have have cleared things up.

It's really too bad that The Master's Challenge was stillborn. I was very disappointed.

How about reviving it? Maybe you would have better luck than the previous guys...

[george 53]

I don't understand, please forgive my naiveity, but isn't that what the GSL is? And a HUNDRED bucks to enter ONE model? I'm just wondering what THAT'S all about. Does the winner get the money?

Edited November 30, 2009 by george 53

[Harry P.]

I don't understand, please forgive my naiveity, but isn't that what the GSL is? And a HUNDRED bucks to enter ONE model? I'm just wondering what THAT'S all about. Does the winner get the money?

No, the money goes towards the champagne and paté...

[Corvette.Jeff]

First off, BEFORE EVERYONE HERE GETS ALL FIRED UP - LET'S GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT.

I have my invitation packet in front of me here, sent to me in 2006 by the administrators, Dan Baker and Bob Wick.

There were 157 names of people thay had chosen to participate, BUT WAS NOT EXCLUSIVE TO OTHERS.

At the top of the list is a statement by Dan and Bob.

QUOTE;

This is a list of accomplished builders initially invited to participate in The Masters challange Invitational. Although substantial effort has been made to include all builders qualified to participate in the Challange, we do not presume that this list is all-inclusive, and we welcome recommendations for any additional builder(s) who should be invited. Please contact us with your suggestions for additional competitors. END QUOTE

Dan Baker

Bob Wick

The initial registration fee was $100, and the Contest was to be presented by the International Model car Builders Museum - administrated by Mark Gustafson.

The idea wasn't meant to be fueled by ego's or arrogance, it was meant to help stimulate the hobby and interest from builders at all stages in their hobby.

For whatever reason, the interest never surfaced and the idea and the event never got off the ground, and was mostly forgotten about - until now.

I hope this isn't going to become another thread that turns into a "Rant" , there's already way too much of that here already about what is fair and what isn't.

Time to build some TOYZ

If I started a contest like "the masters challenge" you and bill geary would be the first two people i would ask to join, along with a bunch of other guys here.

But of course im just 18, i couldnt start a model contest if i wanted to

[george 53]

No, the money goes towards the champagne and paté...

What???? No BEER an CHIPS??? Jeeeze, For that much I'd expect MICHILOB and FRITOS!!!!Yeeesh, wat cheepniz!!

[RodBurNeR]

I take my model building seriously , I just don't take myself too seriously .

I don't really understand what you are getting at with your comments. Most top tier builders I have met are real nice, open, friendly folks. Most of the Egos are also-rans in the model building department. They usually don't stick around the hobby a real long time because their ego needs won't be satisfied. The problem with model builders is the same problem the human race has - we come in all shapes and sizes and personalities. I have seen all kinds of people ripping on other people for no good reason usually because they misunderstand each other. Just look at the recent Sauber/Thibodeau dust-up!

The fact that a certain group of people want a very high caliber contest doesn't diminish those who build at a more basic level. It seems that at times people are threatened by that idea. It is almost like they have a chip on their shoulder. I am NOT speaking of you, Bob. I am speaking in more general terms based on many years of observation of that most curious primate, the Human being!

Harry, I did say that the invitational aspect was a bad PR move in hindsight. People who look for the negative and get their egos boosted by tearing down others really went to town on that aspect of it. A simple reading of the rules showed how easy it was to get invited. I had several people ask me and I sent their names along. I offered to nominate several good builders I knew who weren't on the national "radar". People assumed that the organisers were up to something when a simple inquiry would have have cleared things up.

It's really too bad that The Master's Challenge was stillborn. I was very disappointed.

Andy my friend, I think you took what I said wrong. I don't think it diminishes anyone, I just think it's ridiculous to assume someone is a "master" just because their model showed up in contest or NNL coverage. I take my modeling seriously too, but not to the point that I am expecting anything other than self gratification and if others like what I share...cool beans! I also never meant that "top" modelers are ego moniacal, in fact I feel I pretty much have met or am friends with all of the best of the best from our common grounds. I have run into very few guys that have a huge head and usually they are the ones just locked up inside themselves with pure enjoyment of the hobby and they are totally proud of themselves is all. I know what ya mean, I really am tired of seeing all of the buttkicking at the keyboard around here and I only piped up on this thread because I felt it needed to be said. I hope nobody thinks I was bashing.....it's just as it reads, nothing more nothing less.

[Jeff Sauber]

Andy my friend, I think you took what I said wrong. I don't think it diminishes anyone, I just think it's ridiculous to assume someone is a "master" just because their model showed up in contest or NNL coverage. I take my modeling seriously too, but not to the point that I am expecting anything other than self gratification and if others like what I share...cool beans! I also never meant that "top" modelers are ego moniacal, in fact I feel I pretty much have met or am friends with all of the best of the best from our common grounds. I have run into very few guys that have a huge head and usually they are the ones just locked up inside themselves with pure enjoyment of the hobby and they are totally proud of themselves is all. I know what ya mean, I really am tired of seeing all of the buttkicking at the keyboard around here and I only piped up on this thread because I felt it needed to be said. I hope nobody thinks I was bashing.....it's just as it reads, nothing more nothing less.

Thats well spoken Bob, I think you mention some good points.

Hopefully you won't get attacked by speaking your thoughts here.....otherwise you may need one of these.

[Modelmartin]

I don't understand, please forgive my naiveity, but isn't that what the GSL is? And a HUNDRED bucks to enter ONE model? I'm just wondering what THAT'S all about. Does the winner get the money?

Well, George, the diff is that GSL - even though it is arguably the top contest in the country - is a pretty typical category type contest with the usual classes and master awards and a Best in Show. That type of show spreads the gold somewhat and people can enter as many models as they want and win as many trophies as they can.

The Masters Challenge is a One class, one entry "Top X-acto" showdown. Just bring your best model and see how it does against every one else's one best. I believe they were going to have a top ten ranking in order and, yes, there were going to be cash prizes for the top 3 or 5. I don't have the paperwork in front of me. A portion of that entry fee goes to pay for the facility rental, other 'spenses too.

No, Harry I will not revive or organise anything! Last time I organised a contest 4 people entered!!!

[Modelmartin]

Andy my friend, I think you took what I said wrong. I don't think it diminishes anyone, I just think it's ridiculous to assume someone is a "master" just because their model showed up in contest or NNL coverage. I take my modeling seriously too, but not to the point that I am expecting anything other than self gratification and if others like what I share...cool beans! I also never meant that "top" modelers are ego moniacal, in fact I feel I pretty much have met or am friends with all of the best of the best from our common grounds. I have run into very few guys that have a huge head and usually they are the ones just locked up inside themselves with pure enjoyment of the hobby and they are totally proud of themselves is all. I know what ya mean, I really am tired of seeing all of the buttkicking at the keyboard around here and I only piped up on this thread because I felt it needed to be said. I hope nobody thinks I was bashing.....it's just as it reads, nothing more nothing less.

No prob. I just wasn't clear on your meaning and I kind of wanted to say what I said regardless. You are right about the "master" thing. Some folks are legends in their own minds.

[Modelmartin]

What???? No BEER an CHIPS??? Jeeeze, For that much I'd expect MICHILOB and FRITOS!!!!Yeeesh, wat cheepniz!!

Oh Come on, George! We were going to have Chardonnay, Brie and Arugula! SNIFF!