Show/Contest Judges - Touch Or No Touch?

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Posted · Report post

Greetings fellow plastimaniacs! :blink:

I just watched Donn Yost's Tips and Tricks DVD and learned some things, re-learned some things and got thinking about some things. ;)

At the end of the second DVD - Donn has some things to say about Show/Contest Judges touching and handling models. He REALLY doesn't like it! His solution is displaying models on mirrors or judging the model as it sits or the builder displaying/entering the model should be paged or located to "show" the hidden area.

I can almost agree with him on the mirror aspect. The point I don't 100% agree with is the modeler getting to interact with the judge should he be contacted to "display" the underside. Judges should never be in contact with the modeler during the contest. I would go as far as to say contest entries should be anonymous until the awards - but that is another post.

I have entered contests in the past and I am planning on entering contests some time in the future (especially with my new found Testor's enamel skills that Donn shared in his DVD :huh: ). I expect to have them handled with care by the judges who are also modelers and who know what goes into each and every carefully placed paint, part and glue application.

When an AACA member has his or her car judged - it is touched. When entering a concours - cars are touched, sat in, started, and the evaluation is VERY hands-on and stressful for the owner.

The thought I have is this - If you wanna compete and you wanna win - Having your finished model touched and quite possibly destroyed by accident is part of competition. The judges hands-on interaction with the model is part of the judging - like 'did any parts fall off?' Race cars get wrecked - show cars get scratched.

What is nice - should a car get damaged - you get to use those parts in another kit or you get to rebuild the kit that has been damaged - changing or repairing things you wanted to but didn't get to in the first place.

I'm really looking forward to hearing what others have to say about this subject. Please be kind - a different opinion isn't stupid - it's just different. <_<

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Posted · Report post

I don't think it's possible to judge a model correctly if you're not allowed to see everything... top, bottom, what's under the hood. If the model can be displayed so that the judges can see all of it (hood open, mirrored base, etc.) then I have no problem with the "No Touch" rule. In fact, if it was my model on the table I wouldn't want anyone handling it.

If broken or possibly "destroyed" models are the price to pay for entering a contest, like you say... then count me out!

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Posted (edited) · Report post

NO TOUCHING! period, end of story... keep your cotton picking mits to yourself.

I have had one model distroyed by a "judge" picking it up and dropping it... they wouldn't even say who actually did it. I didn't even get a sorry.

That was the last contest I entered.

Edited by CAL

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Posted · Report post

When an AACA member has his or her car judged - it is touched. When entering a concours - cars are touched, sat in, started, and the evaluation is VERY hands-on and stressful for the owner. I wonder how this would go over at a local cars show? Maybe even a show and shine? Something to think about!

The thought I have is this - If you wanna compete and you wanna win - Having your finished model touched and quite possibly destroyed by accident is part of competition. The judges hands-on interaction with the model is part of the judging - like 'did any parts fall off?' Race cars get wrecked - show cars get scratched. So who pays for the show car that gets destroyed? Or the irreplaceable race car that gets totaled? Who wants to be responsible for the Le Mans winning Ferrari that gets damaged? Do you want to be the one who gets to carry the damaged model to it's owner and say, "Sorry Dude, I dropped your car and it's destroyed. By the way it didn't place, we weren't done judging it yet. Sorry about that cool paint job, I don't think that will buff out." How about the side mirror that just fell off when you picked it up, or that wheel, or whatever. Do you think the owner is going to say, "That's OK, it was falling off anyway." Or do you think he'd say, "the stupid judges broke my model, I'm never coming back!" If I choose not to put a mirror under my model, that is my tough luck, don't judge that part. Should the judge pry the hood open to see the motor? What if I glued it shut? Or maybe it's just stuck. The whole idea sounds like a real good way to kill a show.

What is nice - should a car get damaged - you get to use those parts in another kit or you get to rebuild the kit that has been damaged - changing or repairing things you wanted to but didn't get to in the first place. What if that was "The One", the one car that really clicks for you. Or maybe there is a sentimental reason you built that car that way. How would you feel about a guy you don't know coming over to your house a breaking a few random built kits for you so you can use them for parts? I'm betting you wouldn't be too happy!

I'm just pointing out a few things you may not have thought of, not starting a flame war.

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Posted · Report post

I GOTTA agree with Harry,an Cal on this one, even IF I've only entered ONE model contest in my LIFE!. The risk of haveing one damaged or destroyed, OR WORSE YET, STOLEN angry.gif is TOO much of a risk! The mirror trick seems ok to veiw the underside of it, but NO, in MY opinion, should someone elses HARD work be put at risk by ANY judge who feels the need to handle it!!!

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Posted · Report post

I had a model stolen too, not at a contest but out of a hobby store display case.

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Posted · Report post

Cal, it's somethin you NEVER forget! I was 12 when it happened, the Teacher EVEN KNEW who took it, an DIDN'T do ANYTHING about it! ( other than to say, "Oh, I thought it was HIS!!!") NEVER entered another contest EVER!!!!!angry.gif

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Posted · Report post

I have been going to contests since 1991. I have never seen a model being dropped by a judge. It happens, of course, as mentioned above by someone. But to imply that this is somehow a common occurrence is crazy.

In fact, I would bet that far more models get damaged or destroyed by their owners!

A little concentration during the handling of models, no matter who is handling it, goes a long way. Make a consious effort to safely hold and protect the model, and you risk its destruction. Having been one of the cattle in the herd of people at an NNL, I would say you have the biggest risk of destruction while carrying the model to have it photographed. Would you refuse to have your model photographed by Gregg? Hmmm... B)

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Posted · Report post

Cal, it's somethin you NEVER forget! I was 12 when it happened, the Teacher EVEN KNEW who took it, an DIDN'T do ANYTHING about it! ( other than to say, "Oh, I thought it was HIS!!!") NEVER entered another contest EVER!!!!!angry.gif

nope, it wasn't even a big model a 1/35 scale resin military commander figure, probably a $10. Guy came in and said it was his and got the manager to give it to him.

While for the large part, most of people I have met though this hobby have been a cut above your average folks, but there have been a few lowest of low scum-puppies I have had the most displeasure of crossing paths with. Probably why I pretty much keep to myself nowdays. Don't belong to any clubs anymore, don't do the contest thing, don't leave models in the LHS display case.

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Posted · Report post

I have been going to contests since 1991. I have never seen a model being dropped by a judge. It happens, of course, as mentioned above by someone. But to imply that this is somehow a common occurrence is crazy.

In fact, I would bet that far more models get damaged or destroyed by their owners!

A little concentration during the handling of models, no matter who is handling it, goes a long way. Make a consious effort to safely hold and protect the model, and you risk its destruction. Having been one of the cattle in the herd of people at an NNL, I would say you have the biggest risk of destruction while carrying the model to have it photographed. Would you refuse to have your model photographed by Gregg? Hmmm... B)

I don't know why anyone needs to touch a model to judge it. After all it's a STATIC display model not an INTERACTIVE display model. It sould be the responsiblity of the builder to display the model for the biggest bang of the buck. It is the responsiblity of the judge to judge what he or she sees and not have to going looking for the super detailed rear end cover bolts with washers.

I donno, I think ever contest I have ever been to that was the rule, including the one where I have one of my models dropped. NO TOUCHING but some people can't seem to resist picking them up anyway.

They should have all there fingers broken.

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Posted · Report post

Cal (or whatever your name is I.E the rules state...) both local shows here in New England have a "do not handle" box to check on the registration slip. Don't want to have your model handled, just check the DNH box. Wa-la.

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Posted · Report post

Cal, it's somethin you NEVER forget! I was 12 when it happened, the Teacher EVEN KNEW who took it, an DIDN'T do ANYTHING about it! ( other than to say, "Oh, I thought it was HIS!!!") NEVER entered another contest EVER!!!!!angry.gif

That's a shame George.

Yes we do live in an imperfect world, and things do happen.

I guess my worst model building experience was right after I finished my best ever paint job up to that point in my young life, I was probably 15, I dropped it in the dirt when the paint was still freshangry.gif .

Been entering model car contests since 1958, never had a really bad experience. Parts fall off sometimes, or hoods or other loose pieces fall off when the car is handled, and the judge doesn't always think about it ahead of time.

As a judge myself in shows, I've been the same imperfect person and dropped stuff also. Not a whole car.

It happens, people aren't perfect.

The last few years, when I go to a contest, my stuff is displayed with underside mirrors, and a mirror behind the car to give a three-dementional look for the spectators and judges, and I ask them NICELY not to handle the car, just judge it as they see it. So far there's been no problem, except once years ago, and we worked that out to both our satisfaction.

I recommend contests.

If you don't enter, at least attend, as you can meet some pretty cool people, and learn alot by seeing what others are doing, take those idea's home and use them yourself.

You can also learn quite a bit by talking to builders, and you may even make some new friends cool.gif .

The Knights Of The Round Table used to "JOUST" and compete in other feats proving themselves as men - Dueling in the South "For a mans honor".

Men have always wanted to compete and prove their worth no matter how brutal or civilized the competition. It's the nature of our gender - the way GOD made us men.

No different today. Model building is one of todays "civilized" ways for men to prove themselves - that's why all the squabbling and name calling on this and other forums - TESTESTARONE - and the desire to be noticed and be the best - JUST A FACT ABOUT THE MALE EGO.

Competing, and being forced to follow the rules is healthy, but frustating, for many of us highly competitive types, and yes you can expect someone to get a "REAL ATTITUDE" at a show - he's a perfectly normal male learning how to act in public, and hasn't gotten it yetlaugh.gif .

Approve??? - NO, but I do understand.

So, go compete, get beat when you think you should have won, and learn to be a goog looser and eventually start having fun - LIFE ISN'T FAIR, AND NEVER WILL BE - but if you decide to have a good time no matter what - YOU WILL rolleyes.gif .

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Cal (or whatever your name is I.E the rules state...) both local shows here in New England have a "do not handle" box to check on the registration slip. Don't want to have your model handled, just check the DNH box. Wa-la.

If you look to the left my name is there in compliance with the new rules, which I was told all you needed was a first name and didn't need to be in the signature box any more.

Doesn't make much difference to me. I was all there once upon a time until it was all stripped out with the change over.

Edited by CAL

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Posted · Report post

Thanks Dave, I quit years ago after a bad expierience at the Toledo NNL! Guys were actually GRABBIN stuff outta my HANDS! Yeesh, it's just PLASTIC guys, NOT money! So I quit goin. But then back in 08, I heard Gregg was gonna be at Toledo, an wantin to meet him, I went. WOW things sure were different! I ACTUALLY ENJOYED myself, Met Gregg, Bill Geary, Anthony Rios, Santiago Hernandez, Billy Kingsley, and a BUNCH of other GREAT GUYS! Went to Sylvania last year an met ANOTHER GREAT goroup of guys! ALOT from this forum! Things HAVE changed for the better,Dave! And I'm likein it ALOT! Still have no desire to enter a contest, but I WILL be goin to the NNL's that come around, cause they ARE fun!!!!biggrin.gif

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Posted · Report post

If you look to the left my name is there in compliance with the new rules, which I was told all you needed was a first name and didn't need to be in the signature box any more.

Doesn't make much difference to me. I was all there once upon a time until it was all stripped out.

Ahh! My blind mans stick didn't read your name. B)

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Posted · Report post

Thanks Dave, Still have no desire to enter a contest...

Ahh George, there's nothing like the "THRILL OF DEFEAT" to drive you to want to win - TA GET EVEN laugh.giflaugh.gif .

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Posted · Report post

I used to enter LHS contests. I have no idea who the judges were or if they touched my models. Since I don't do contests anymore, I don't have much of an opinion on the subject. How's that for taking a stand?

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Posted (edited) · Report post

I was asked to help move a couple of models to a different table at GSL last year. One car that was sitting on a base was almost dropped (not by me). The model rolled really well. We were being really careful & had to be even more vigilant after that. A couple of us almost had to clean our shorts after that. We tried to find the cars' owners first.

Edited by sfhess

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Posted · Report post

The Classic Plastic Club judges on the point system, and I believe they break that down into six categories: 1)Engine; 2)interior; 3)Chassis; 4)Paint; 5)Construction; and 6) Degree Of Difficulty.

When judging, if any one of those categories cannot be viewed (or viewed well), it results in a points loss. Many do display their models on a mirror, and also use something to raise the model. However, in all things being equal, the model that can be carefully lifted, may have a better chance of gaining more points, simply because the judge(s) were able to get a better view than a model that was limited by the view the mirror/platform offered. And don't forget lighting.

Again, we offer the option of checking a "Do Not Touch" box. Because I do not judge at contests, I do not know for a fact if one way has favor over another, but I do know it (each category) must first be well seen and visible to gain a high score.

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Posted · Report post

Cal (or whatever your name is I.E the rules state...) both local shows here in New England have a "do not handle" box to check on the registration slip. Don't want to have your model handled, just check the DNH box. Wa-la.

I like the "Do not Handle" box idea. I must wonder how that effects the viewpoint of the judge. Some might have a problem judging fairly - but if you don't want your contest model judged by picking it up at a contest - it is your prerogative.

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Posted · Report post

The Classic Plastic Club judges on the point system, and I believe they break that down into six categories: 1)Engine; 2)interior; 3)Chassis; 4)Paint; 5)Construction; and 6) Degree Of Difficulty.

When judging, if any one of those categories cannot be viewed (or viewed well), it results in a points loss. Many do display their models on a mirror, and also use something to raise the model. However, in all things being equal, the model that can be carefully lifted, may have a better chance of gaining more points, simply because the judge(s) were able to get a better view than a model that was limited by the view the mirror/platform offered. And don't forget lighting.

Again, we offer the option of checking a "Do Not Touch" box. Because I do not judge at contests, I do not know for a fact if one way has favor over another, but I do know it (each category) must first be well seen and visible to gain a high score.

I have been a judge and never had to pick up someone elses model the standing rule was you get the owner to pick it up if needed.

I think only once I had to have an owner pick up a model in a tie-breaker situation.

To be honest, and maybe it's not fair, but I don't care what the bottom looks like - really. I have a pretty good idea of the model over all from guaging what I can see: fit and finish, paint, assembly, and overall appearance, decals, and glass. I also look for anything special or that stands out - especially if there is something that makes me ask myself how in the world did the builder do that. A bunch of poorly added details doesn't go very far with me.

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Posted · Report post

I like the "Do not Handle" box idea. I must wonder how that effects the viewpoint of the judge. Some might have a problem judging fairly - but if you don't want your contest model judged by picking it up at a contest - it is your prerogative.

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Posted · Report post

So who pays for the show car that gets destroyed? Or the irreplaceable race car that gets totaled? Who wants to be responsible for the Le Mans winning Ferrari that gets damaged? Do you want to be the one who gets to carry the damaged model to it's owner and say, "Sorry Dude, I dropped your car and it's destroyed. By the way it didn't place, we weren't done judging it yet. Sorry about that cool paint job, I don't think that will buff out." How about the side mirror that just fell off when you picked it up, or that wheel, or whatever. Do you think the owner is going to say, "That's OK, it was falling off anyway." Or do you think he'd say, "the stupid judges broke my model, I'm never coming back!" If I choose not to put a mirror under my model, that is my tough luck, don't judge that part. Should the judge pry the hood open to see the motor? What if I glued it shut? Or maybe it's just stuck. The whole idea sounds like a real good way to kill a show.

You make some very good points Ramcharger.

So who pays for the show car that gets destroyed? Or the irreplaceable race car that gets totaled? Who wants to be responsible for the Le Mans winning Ferrari that gets damaged?

The owner - period. There was an instance where a new road racer was learning to race his newly built Improved Touring B VW-GTI - he misjudged traction and his braking point and rear-ended a Honda Civic HARD! Ultimately - the responsibility was of the owners of their respective cars. Competition is dangerous and you can't have insurance coverage on the racetrack - if you can - how much would that cost?!

Vintage racing has rules about incidents on track - one contact incident has something like a year banishment. The second is either lifetime banishment or some other stiff penalty.

When entering a show (1:1 or scale/ NNL or judged contest) a model owner takes risk. The Crowd can get unruly or the judge can get careless.

I just feel that in order to prove your model better than the next model - the scrutiny of the judge includes handling.

I once had a model in Rod And Custom like in 1990. I had no idea that Pat Ganahl picked up my model and carried it to his photo area. Some friends of mine told me this and I didn't believe 'em - until the car showed up in a little B&W pic. I can not replace the thrill of seeing my car in a magazine - that never would have happened if there was a no touch rule.

Quitting because something gets broken or doesn't go in the builder's favor does not reflect maturity.

How much respect did we give the kid who got angry when he lost his baseball or soccer game?

When a model gets damaged, a race car gets wrecked or a show car gets damaged - life doesn't end. Heartbreak is part of life - how we recover from that heartbreak shows the strength of our character. Withdrawing from competition or NNL shows out of fear lets the whole hobby lose out on what that builder has to contribute.

Those who have quit - please give it another chance - how will I know if my model is better than a model that never got entered?

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Posted · Report post

I really don't see any reason a model needs to be handled to be judged. It should be judged as displayed.

Would a curbside be judged differently than a full detail kit? (as far as I know curbside is not usually a seperate class).

The way I see it the builder needs to make some decisions on the display of the model. If you spent 9 hours detailing the motor including putting little Mallory decals on the spark plug wires, then you should probably display the model with the hood up, or maybe even on an engine stand beside the car. If you spent time detailing the under carriage find a way to show that (mirror, up on a lift etc).

You wouldn't take the models out of a diorama to check hidden bits, so why is there a need to do so when displayed alone.

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Posted · Report post

Thank Everyone for your input and very good discussion.

Seeing every-bodies varied response - would a standard rule set be a good idea for all model contests? A rule set that would let everyone feel more secure that their entry on the table is being viewed and treated safely - regardless of having their models handled or not handled.

Something like -

Car classification - (Street Machine, Hot rod, curbside, truck, fire apps., etc.)

judge's handling rules/ "Do not Handle" option

Entry procedure - contest entry open and close time - grace period of late entries.

Awards procedure

Having separate Handling and No-handling classes would be silly - but splitting contests from neighboring host clubs and saying that one contest is a Handle contest - standard rules and having the other contest a Tabletop/no handle - standard rules may be a good answer. Those in that region could then choose if they wanted to enter either or both contests.

We could call it the "Donn Yost Act" or the "Don't fondle my models manifesto". How about the "Tim Lantz standard or TLS."<<<< I like that one!

How is judging at the GSLMCC done?

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