Another thread on Judging. This is a follow up to Daves post the other day.

[Terry Love]

Hello All,

David aka Karmodeler2, has a great chain on "what would you like to change about contests". In that thread a couple of reoccuring problems are mentioned. Three, to be exact, that I would like to address. Hosting clubs not entering their contest, people having to judge classes that they have no knowledge of and people not wanting to judge, period.

I think I have a solution and before you blow off my next statement and say that I'm crazy, please let me explain.

I think the people in a class should judge that class. What did he say? Yes, the actual people that enter a particular class should be the ones that judge it.

1. They know the subject matter or at least should. If they don't they probably arn't and shouldn't win the class but they sure will learn a lot about it.

2. There is no home field advantage for the hosting club so they should be allowed to enter.

3. If people don't want to judge then their car isn't eligable to win. Plus I think most people don't want to judge because they would be judging other classes that they have no interest in.

So how does it work. Whether you use a score card with 100 point or just by voting for the best model, this system should work.

First off, an individual can not vote for their own model. That may sound unfair but if there are 10 people in the class and I have the best model by a long shot. None of the other model come close. When the score is calculated, my model should have 9 first place scores and only one other model will have 1 first place score. I win. This would work for the master awards ie, Best Paint, engine, interior etc and then for Best of Show.

I see two negatives to this system.

1. Someone might not vote for the best car hoping that will elevate their car, so you need to have someone else go back and verify the results.

2. The winners might know who won before the actual awards are given out. But, just think, all the street rod guys will be able to discuss what each one of them did on their car. I think some great comradery would be built and those people that think they should have won, would probably understand why they didn't.

So, please don't just react with your first gut feeling because I think this idea goes agains everything that we hold dear in what we have thought about contest for year. This is a little crazy but I think it would work.

[Karmodeler2]

Hey Terry,

You might just be right. I read it with an open mind all the way through and let me think about it. It would allow the entrant to describe what he has done and it would also let the entrant see some flaws that they may have overlooked, but someone else on the team found them and gave the entrant instant feedback.

It really does make some sense,.....let me think a little more about it.

I hope others will chime in.

David

[Len Woodruff]

What no meds today Terry? But interesting like Dave said let me chill on it.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Len Woodruff

[hemithunder]

Sounds feaseable to me. But I've never entered a contest, so I have no clue how it would work in practice.

[highway]

I think the people in a class should judge that class. What did he say? Yes, the actual people that enter a particular class should be the ones that judge it.

1. They know the subject matter or at least should. If they don't they probably arn't and shouldn't win the class but they sure will learn a lot about it.

2. There is no home field advantage for the hosting club so they should be allowed to enter.

3. If people don't want to judge then their car isn't eligable to win. Plus I think most people don't want to judge because they would be judging other classes that they have no interest in.

I'm sorry, Terry, but I must disagree with you on everything but one point, judges SHOULD know something about the class they are judging. The former club I was a member of for nearly 15 years put on a successful show every year (until it was decided to go to "open judging" format instead of 1st, 2nd, 3rd format) and one thing that entrants loved was WE DID NOT ENTER OUR SHOW. It eliminated favoritism that was seen at other shows in our area where the hosting club did compete. We were a very diverse group with car and military modelers, everyone with a speciallty, and we judged our speciallty. I mainly build Heavy Commerical, Light Commerical, muscle cars, and Nascars, so that is what I judged every year.

On your third point, why should I come to your groups show if I HAVE TO JUDGE?? I came to compete, not DO YOUR CLUB'S WORK FOR YOU!!! There were two or three other clubs in our area that my former club got along with very well, they even had an open invitation to attend our meeting and vise versa. Nine times out of ten, whichever club was hosting the show, if the other club's members seen help was needed, help was VOLUNTEERED!! If it was not our club hosting, we would VOLUNTEER to help, we were never REQUIRED to help! We also did not judge classes we were entered in, but would judge any others we had expertise in. I would not have a problem helping to judge if asked, but not in a catagory I was entered in, THAT WOULD NOT BE FAIR TO OTHER ENTRANTS!!! If I would attend your group's show, I would help of ASKED to assist in judging, but I WOULD NOT ATTEND IF REQUIRED TO JUDGE!!! I attend shows for the models and vendors, NOT TO DO THE HOST CLUB'S WORK FOR THEM!! IF YOUR CLUB CANNOT HANDLE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF HOLDING A CONTEST, DON'T HAVE ONE!!!!!

[Modelmartin]

It isn't a bad idea in theory but I don't know if you could find that many people to be impartial.

[Harry P.]

It isn't a bad idea in theory but I don't know if you could find that many people to be impartial.

People aren't impartial. That's the whole problem, and that's why, IMO, the best way to judge a contest is to judge each entry in several pre-determined areas like paintwork, realism, cleanliness of build, etc... each category on a 0-10 or 0-100 scale or whatever. The model with the most points overall wins.

This method forces judges to look at several aspects of each model instead of just looking at it overall and judging it. It minimizes bias and judge's personal likes/dislikes regarding the subject matter. For example, a judge may not like "Street Rod" type models, but if he/she has to judge the model on its merits... paint, detail, realism, basic construction technique/cleanliness, etc... there is less room for judge's bias. Even if the judge didn't personally care for Street Rods, he/she would be judging based on a given set of parameters... not personal likes or dislikes.

[Scale-Master]

Very interesting. Could it work? Probably. Will it work most of the time? Highly doubtful.

As mentioned earlier, it can only work if ALL involved can be impartial. I could see it working with a small group of entrants who are all respectful and truly don't care if they win. But multiply that by the number of categories and the likelihood of ruffled feathers goes up exponentially.

Great for a discussion, and thanks for offering it up. But I just don't see it working as planned in reality.

And one other point, I know some great builders who have not a clue as to what is the reality of what they build. They may have the skill, but not the historical and mechanical knowledge. So to judge another's model would not work as planned by this scenario.

[Harry P.]

Judges being biased against a particular type of model really isn't an issue, because, for the most part, like types of models are judged against one another. In another words, to use to your example, if a judge doesn't like street rods, it's not going to affect the outcome that much because all the street rods are going to be in one category and he's going to not like them all equally!

And as long as YOU like what you build, who cares what anyone else thinks?

Judge's bias plays a big part in "Best of Show."

And to your second point... I agree 100%. Even though I do have opinions on how a contest should be judged, I couldn't care less what any "judge" would think of my work. That's why I would never enter a contest.

[tabsscale1]

KAMS throws a show every year for the last 15 years and we just have themodelers themself do the judging in all categories. It has been working so we don't want to change. The Club members do build and enter in the contest and they don't usually win. We feel the modelers themselves know what is the best work on the table . I have entered in the contest a model that the club members did not know was mine to see if the club was biased toward club members and some times I win and sometimes I don't. The thing is what we do works and keep having the same people come back every year. We had our best show in years this year and might be better next year.

[Modelmartin]

Judge's bias plays a big part in "Best of Show."

And to your second point... I agree 100%. Even though I do have opinions on how a contest should be judged, I couldn't care less what any "judge" would think of my work. That's why I would never enter a contest.

Typically there are only one or two models at any contest that are Best in Show worthy. Best of show judging only occasionnally is difficult.

Harry, you still crack me up with your contest phobia! Try it man! It isn't so bad. Are you afraid of winning?

[Harry P.]

Harry, you still crack me up with your contest phobia! Try it man! It isn't so bad. Are you afraid of winning?

Yeah, that's it. I don't want to embarrass everyone else by so totally outshining them all...

Actually, it's not a fear or even a dislike of contests... I just don't have that competitive urge. I understand it, and I get that a lot of guys like to compete... I totally see that and have no complaints about it or look down it or anything like that; it's just not my thing. Competing against other modelers doesn't interest me in the least.

[Modelmartin]

I'm the exact same way Harry, but oddly enough, I enjoy being a judge at contests!!!

The power! Mwahahahahaha!

[Harry P.]

To me, it's not about competing, per se; it's more about putting my stuff on the table and seeing how it stacks up with that of others ... again, not for the sake of taking home a trophy, but just as a measuring stick to see where I've progressed in the hobby and where I need work.

I won't lie and say it's not nice winning awards; it is, especially at bigger shows where there's lot of competition. However, I can also honestly say I've never been to a show where winning or not winning has determined how good a time I've had.

Yeah, I can see that.

But for me, the biggest kick I get out of model building is the building. To me, that's the hobby right there, that's why I do it. How I stack up against others holds absolutely no interest for me, it's just irrelevant. I build models strictly to amuse myself. I enjoy the process. Competing, or even just displaying in an NNL type event, plays no part in the hobby for me. To me, building a model for relaxation and enjoyment and competing in contests against others are two totally different hobbies, one that I like and one that I have absolutely no interest in. But like I said, I totally get that competing and taking part in contests and shows is a big part of how other people enjoy model cars... heck, for some people competing against others is the entire point.

Diff'rent strokes, right?

[Ramcharger]

Stop Judging Me!!!!! I can't take it! Make it stop! OK, I'm better now. No matter how well these things are judged, somebody will leave mad. It's just human nature. If you didn't think your stuff was the best on the table you'd stay home.

[Art Anderson]

People aren't impartial. That's the whole problem, and that's why, IMO, the best way to judge a contest is to judge each entry in several pre-determined areas like paintwork, realism, cleanliness of build, etc... each category on a 0-10 or 0-100 scale or whatever. The model with the most points overall wins.

This method forces judges to look at several aspects of each model instead of just looking at it overall and judging it. It minimizes bias and judge's personal likes/dislikes regarding the subject matter. For example, a judge may not like "Street Rod" type models, but if he/she has to judge the model on its merits... paint, detail, realism, basic construction technique/cleanliness, etc... there is less room for judge's bias. Even if the judge didn't personally care for Street Rods, he/she would be judging based on a given set of parameters... not personal likes or dislikes.

Harry, you are right on target here. Unlike the other areas of scale modeling, the model ccar hobby is probably the most diverse, free-spirited, almost anarchic, occasionally rebellious, once-in-a-while-obnoxious, yet all the while a fun-filled group of individuals all on a common march--to build the meanest, nastiest, baddest model cars ever regardless of the scale, subject matter, or area of interest. And that can make being a contest judge an almost formidable task indeed! Let's compare with the others for a bit:

In model railroading, structure modelers tend to judge structures, those with an abiding interest in steam locomotives judge those 4-8-4's and ancient 4-4-0 American Types with equal intensity. Freight car specialists can let what few prejudices they have (RR/RR, Boxcars/tank cars, etc.), and fanatics of gleaming passenger car varnish have little trouble scrutinizing fluted polished streamliners. Over at IPMS, there are so many aircraft classes, based on the scale, wingspan, time frame, number of engines, planes with props get judged separately from those that are pretty much flying blowtorches. Same with armor, ships, military figures. Judging attention to accuracy comes a lot easier for those who follow the aforementioned areas of modeling interest.

Not quite so with model cars, though! Very few of us are really conversant with automotive subjects that are outside our particular area(s) of interest. True, we do have builders who are conversant with multiple subject areas, but darned few car modelers are capable of judging with any authority on all areas of the contest table, each and every class, if accuracy of the model is to be questioned, even considered at all. Yet most any of us who have been around the hobby for more than just a few years can spot the obvious errors and ommissions, notice that really great paintjob, a well (and hopefully reasonably accurately detailed engine or chassis, but it doesn't really go beyond the basics of building that awesome model as opposed to an also-ran.

One huge thing that seems to be lacking, more and more, is good, old-fashioned sportsmanship. Hey, it's only a contest, folks, not the Superbowl, the Championship Game in March Madness, nor is anyone's very life on the line at 225+ mph, coming down neck and neck to the Checkered Flag signifying the completion of hte 200th lap at Indy (thus winning that famous drink of milk, picking up a multimillion dollar purse at the victory banquet, knowing you will have your head engraved in solid sterling silver to be affixed to the Borg Warner Trophy--not even close to any of that. Yet, so many modelers get all banged up, bent out of shape, because their entry didn't win, may not even have placed. So what? One can learn from such experiences, whether it's that the model car in question had some shortcomings vis-a-vis the others, or perhaps it was just not that well judged (all the contest judges I have ever seen are amateurs--they don't get an honorarium check for accepting that job. With this in mind, it seems to me little wonder so very few modelers jump at the chance to be a contest judge--who among us wants to be faced with disgruntled entrants wanting to know just why their model(s) didn't bring home the gold? That's not MY idea of how to have fun on a Saturday afternoon, believe me!

No, leave accuracy, authenticity out of the contest equation, unless the model is so obviously correct as to be unavoidably noticeable, or so way off that it sticks out like a bloody thumb. Concentrate on judging the workmanship, and everything that entails.

Art

[LoneWolf15]

Blues ,

Factory stock and replica stock are two diffrent animals , if I'm not mistaken . Replica stock is generally coverd by any subject with corresponding photographs and literature to back it up . In other words, a model that is an exact replica of the photos that accompany the build. Depending on the subject , generally a tougher class as compared to the ordinary factory stock class

[Modelmartin]

Blues ,

Factory stock and replica stock are two diffrent animals , if I'm not mistaken . Replica stock is generally coverd by any subject with corresponding photographs and literature to back it up . In other words, a model that is an exact replica of the photos that accompany the build. Depending on the subject , generally a tougher class as compared to the ordinary factory stock class

I think you might be thinking of Replica class. Different contests will use different names for classes. If I see the word stock I assume it is factory AND replica, stock. Small point, carry on.

[Modelmartin]

My 2 cents says this only works in a perfect world.

Cynically, I steer clear of almost all contest participation because from what I've experienced 95+% of builders would rather get a trophy/prize they didn't earn, than lose to a better model. I'll leave it at that. The behavior I've seen by the trophy hounds (and their "fan club/ballot stuffer posse" entourage) is shocking sometimes.

I have visions of the lame "but to me 4/10 IS a good score!" explanations when someone is caught trying to bury every other entry in his class...

Perhaps a tad cynical, there, Mark! The trophy hunters are out there but they are the minority, for sure. I have been entering, running, judging and having fun at contests since '79. I have definitely run across some trophy hounds but the overwhelming majority of model builders just like participating and showing off their stuff!