AMT 49 Olds?

[Chuck Most]

I think they made a movie about die cast models making the transition from metal to plastic kits. "Lost In Translation", I believe it was called...

Could the die cast Olds be adapted to a plastic kit? Of course. Will it happen? Who knows? I'd love to have one, even if it were 90% of the old AMT '51 Chevy kit (hint, hint).

Edited January 30, 2011 by Count Chuckula

[dodgefever]

I know people always say this, but I would buy several if that Olds kit ever came out.

[Art Anderson]

i'm all for hounding Round2 but i don't think any tooling was even ever cut for the kit. Art Andersen may have some insider info on that.

i think it's one of those kits that has appeal to a fairly wide audience as there are alot of ways you can build it.

The 50 Olds 88 and 50 Studebaker Commander Starlight were proposals only, to "test the waters" at the RCHTA trade show in Rosemont IL, October 1998 or 99. Ertl Collectibles had just produced the Oldsmobile Coupe in 1/25 diecast as a bank, to mark the 50th Anniversary of the founding of NASCAR. It was then reissued several times as a promotional model car for various companies, including the NFL.

Model companies have floated "trial balloon" projects numerous times over the years, in hopes of generating sufficient "pre-sell" orders from mass retailers and hobby wholesale houses in order to justify going forward with full development into a model kit or kits. I attended that RCHTA show on the Saturday public day, and Tom Walsh of AMT/Ertl, along with John Mueller, legendary AMT kit designer both expressed their disappointment to me that neither the Olds nor ths Studebaker generated even close to sufficient interest during the trade days of the show to warrant their going forward with either car in plastic kits.

Some keep stating "well, run styrene in the diecast tooling", but that is something easier said than done. Perhaps the biggest problem is the material thickness of the body sides--while the external surfaces can have very correct curves/undercut (called in automotive styling, "tumblehome") due to the solid, hard nature of metal castings, the internal surfaces must be straight, with a bit of draft angle so that the hardened cast metal body shell can slide off that part of the tooling upon being ejected from the mold. That results in very thick material in those areas, and with the nasty tendency of molten styrene to shrink as it cools and solidifies, the sink mark problem might well be insurmoutable. That would certainly be the case with a bulletnose Studebaker. Additionally, the Olds diecast had no provision whatsoever for an opening hood & engine, so that would have been a big downer as well.

Also, forget about pitching a car of this sort to "the kids". Kids today most likely have never seen, nor will they ever see, a '59-'50 Oldsmobile 88 Rocket Business Coupe--after all, 1950 is more than 60 years ago, way back in their grandfather's or even great-grandfather's time. It's not a car that was widely hotrodded--certainly not on the scale of say, a '32 Ford or '40 Ford. It's market would have to be adults, and I'm not altogether sure about its sales potential there either. "I know I want one" is a great battle cry, but are there 50,000 or so modelers out there pining for this one? I dunno.

Art

[Rob Hall]

Also, forget about pitching a car of this sort to "the kids". Kids today most likely have never seen, nor will they ever see, a '59-'50 Oldsmobile 88 Rocket Business Coupe--after all, 1950 is more than 60 years ago, way back in their grandfather's or even great-grandfather's time. It's not a car that was widely hotrodded--certainly not on the scale of say, a '32 Ford or '40 Ford. It's market would have to be adults, and I'm not altogether sure about its sales potential there either. "I know I want one" is a great battle cry, but are there 50,000 or so modelers out there pining for this one? I dunno.

Art

Seems like the same kind of obscure vintage subject as the Moeibus Hudson. Wonder how that one will do.

[Rob Hall]

Therein lies the rub. While the Hudson has both the rich Nascar heritage, (& I know the Rocket 88 was just behind in as far as Nascar heritage & popularity at that time, however it was never perceived the same, thus it's actual heritage isn't as noticable), & the instant familarity to the younger set from "Doc Hudson" in "Cars", both of which help create a bit of a built in audience, the Olds doesn't have that to fall back on, like the Hudson possibly does. I certainly wouldn't mind a kit of a Rocket 88, (& was in fact looking forward to it when first rumored, espcially due to the Nascar connection), at the same time if we never get one I won't miss not having it.

See above. Hopefully it will do very well. In fact one of the best things that could happen is that the Hudson do well enough to cause Moebius to consider tooling up a kit of the Rocket 88!!

We'll see..

I'm skeptical of the 'Doc Hudson' angle for the Hudson kit, since it's not being marketed as the 'Cars' car... at least Oldsmobile is a brand that is still relatively familiar...Hudson was long gone even when I was born 40 years ago...

Edited January 30, 2011 by Rob Hall

[Rob Hall]

For vintage Oldsmobiles, I'd rather see a '66 Toronado (though I have the Johan kits) or an early '70s Cutlass SX coupe (though I can kitbash one from the Revell convertible).

[Rob Hall]

kind of interesting to see how many people don't want a '49-'50 Oldsmobile in kit form but are interested in a '74 Monaco while there may have been some cool and unique uses of the Monaco's in various TV and movie spots that's one kit i can guarantee you i have absolutely NO interest in, not even a speck of dust's worth.

the Monaco from a light commercial model builders perspective i can see where there would be some interest, but enough for that magical 50k number of kits sold? honestly, i seriously doubt you'd bust 10k kits sold on that one, but what do i know.

Well, the Monaco is only 37 years old, while the Olds is really old.. I remember seeing those mid '70s Monacos on the road as a kid..I've only seen a couple '49 Olds at car shows, never on the road...for the Monaco, I'd want to do a Blues Brothers replica (as I'm a fan of the movie) and one stock, as I like '70s land yachts...

Edited January 30, 2011 by Rob Hall

[Art Anderson]

it will be very interesting to see how well the Hudson does once it hits the market and store shelves.

i know that the Oldsmobile would indeed have a very niche interest, but i think the Hudson does too. i wonder quite a bit at how many black widow '57 Chevy kits Revell sold and it's interesting to think of that kit because to me, that kit had a very small niche interest. the Bel Air was pretty much a given that it would do well, as typically the flashy models do. Revell seems though to have made good on some subjects that arent flashy top models, but those that were more mundane and "mainstreamer".

Apples & Oranges I believe: There are perhaps 3 eras of cars that have been, and still are, collected, restored, hotrodded and customized very widely--Fords from Model T through at least 1948, and Chevrolet's 1955-57, and those I have named were produced in the millions. Oldsmobile, by 1949, was coming off at least 3 decades of being pretty much mundane, solid dependable cars for equally solid, dependable middle aged adults (in fact, Oldsmobile almost "got the axe" from GM management a couple of times, first in 1923, again in 1931-32 (the latter cost cutting move did eliminate Oldsmobile's upscale V8 cars, the Viking). Among the Oldsmobiles of the era under discussion here, very few were cars that fit into the collectibility, customizers' fodder, or hot rodding potential--the VAST majority sold were 88 or 98 4dr sedans (two doors too many for most enthusiasts IMO) with only a small smattering of business coupe 88's (used the same A-body as the Chevrolet business coupe of those same years), a handful of woody station wagons, and of course, the relatively small number of convertibles and the newly minted Holiday hardtops. Also, much lower production at Olds than at Chevrolet then as well. Chevrolet, by contrast, had a wider variety of body styles, 3 or 4 different trim levels, and that awesome small block V8 which debuted in 1955.

There were far more Tri-Five Chevies turned into HS rides, simply because there ware a lot more of them available--at least a couple million more of them. They were far less expensive on the used car market as 3-5yr old cars than even an older Oldsmobile, and high school guys who knew and understood the stoplight drags knew immediately that a Chevy 2dr sedan with a 265 or 283 and a stick shift was the way to go--Bel Air if you wanted to pick up the chicks. In short, Tri-Fives were the "Deuces" of the High Schoolers in the 1960's, just as had been flathead V8-era Fords for their fathers in the late-30's through the early 50's. While of course, a model kit of a '55'57 Chevy 4dr sedan would not bust any sales records as a model kit, just about any 2dr bodied Chevy of those years in model kit form will, has, and does sell pretty well.

Another factor making it almost a no-brainer for Revell to have done as many 55-57 Chevy kits as they have since the release of their '55 Bel Air Convertible back in the mid-1990's is that Revell did it very right: They made that kit so it could become the leader of a whole series of subsequent kits--by being able apparently to shuffle portions of the tooling around, take this out, add that in, and so on. That makes it possible to do different versions, such as the '57 150 2dr sedan "Black Widow" at comparatively a lesser investment than if it had to be tooled entirely from the tabletop up. The Olds in question here, however, would have to be an all new, free-standing model kit, and it's not likely that beyond possibly a hardtop or a convertible, it would really go anyplace farther than what it would be--potentially just a "one hit wonder".

In today's marketplace, model companies seem well-advised to work with car subjects which have at least something on the order of "long legs", that meaning subjects that either sell perennially, or have the potential for subsequent modified reissue subjects.

Things to think about, it seems to me.

Art

[Helipilot16]

I have, in the past, owned two 1-1 88s; one a '49 torpedo back, and the other a '50 Holiday coupe. The latter was particularly classy looking, with 4 or 5 chrome headliner braces from side to side across the inside of the roof.

I have recently bought two resin versions of the business coupe; a '50 and a '49. The former is almost done, with a blown 394 out of a beatnik bandit kit. The resin kits are based on the diecast banks, so they are nicely proportioned but poorly detailed. I am building full detail into them. I am using a stretched '51 Chevrolet as a chassis donor (the Olds is 5 inches longer ahead of the doors). You can build a Holiday using a Belair for the top.

[lordairgtar]

Demographics being what they are, I would say that model car hobby is more for us older types. Yes kids get into the hobby but are more into the instant gratification types of activities like video games or even sports. The CARS movie appealed to a wide age group from kids to adult. There were really cool inferences to the age group that would actually enjoy the movie. I don't think kids would understand the whole "Filmore and his organic fuel" and his respecting the classics comment toward Sarge... "Hendrix man, respect the classics". My whole car club consisting of 40 to 70 year old people got to go to an advance screening just for us when it came out...no kids in the audience.

[camaroman]

I thought those bumpers were called "Dagmars"...

Sorry guys, I did not hear a word you were sayin' after this post... I was a bit distracted after a couple of previous post... set me wondering how many really naturally beautiful women from the past would have messed up a "Good Thing" with enhancements if they had lived in our modern era ... Now what were we talking about???

[camaroman]

and please feel free to flag my previous post as " way off topic"...... just got distracted!!!

[Billy Kingsley]

The 49/50 Olds were ubiquitus in the first few years of NASCAR, until the Hudsons came on the scene, after that, Olds never regained it's dominance in the sport. They were the cars driven to the first two Championships.

Eventually I will build this with one of the resins out there, Red Byron's 1949 Stricktly Stock champion car. For those of you who don't know, that is the series known today as Sprint Cup.

The Bullit-nose Studebaker is one of my all time favorite cars, I'm still dissapointed that it was never kitted. (And a factory stock has never been available in resin, either, as far as I know!)

Here's one I photographed at the Studebaker Museum in 2003.

I joined the world of modeling message boards in August 2000 and it was right around that time that it was found out that these would not be made, in fact, I think I learned that they were announced in the same post I learned they were cancelled I THINK that the proposed Studebaker art had a bright red car on it, but it's going on a decade now since I've seen the boxart so I could be wrong.

[ra7c7er]

Both of those cars look really cool The Studebaker looks amazing. So many cool cars never get produced yet we have 20 different 57 chevys. Why?

Edited February 1, 2011 by ra7c7er

[slantasaurus]

Simple answer? because 57 Chevies are seen as iconic vehicles, (much like 32 Fords), & thus have a built in audience. In other words the manufacturers know they have a built in sales cushion with them. They also know that they don't have that with a 49 Olds or 50 Studebaker, although it is possible that Revell could take a chance on one or the other, much like they have with their Kurtis midget kits. If they do however, keep in mind that it's the sales of kits like all the Tri-Five Chevy & 32 Ford variants that produced enough working capital to make such a risk possible. The model companies aren't in business to make every single model that someone wants, they are in business to make a product that sells, & that creates a profit for them. If they don't see the profit potential in a certain kit, (& trust me, a handful of people on a forum clamoring for a 49 Olds or a 50 Studebaker aren't a large enough cross section to warrant the investment), then it simply won't happen. I'm not saying that there's not a market for either kit, I'm saying that Revell, (or AMT, or Moebius), has to determine if there's a big enough market to warrant risking the investment capital on.

Also keep in mind with the Tri-Five Chevy & 32 Ford kits, that any modified reissues are based on existing tooling, thus having a smaller initial investment, (& also offering greater profit potential from said investment), than an all new tool such as an Olds or Studebaker would have. Much of the pre-existing tooling used in those aforementioned kits is already paid for as well, which keeps the investment in a small amount of new tooling for such a modified reissue low as well, when compared to investing in all new tooling for a totally new kit. Before anyone begins arguing about tooling costs for new tools vs modified reissues, please keep in mind that both Tim Boyd, (who's been involved indirectly with Revell for years), & Art Anderson, (who was involved with the old AMT & worked for Johnny Lightning/Polar Lights), have confirmed everything I'm saying here, on this very forum in the past, so the facts from people with often first hand info are here on the forum to back up my comments. The argument comes up quite often from people without said information, or that are sure if they argue what the believe emotionally, from their gut reactions, that it just has to be true. Facts will always trump emotions or beliefs, always has, always will. If it won't sell, they won't, (actually can't afford to), invest in it. The following comment quoted from Art Anderson speaks volumes about this very subject:

While I wouldn't mind a 49 Olds kit, I'd be hard pressed to want to buy more than 2-3 tops. A 50 Stude? Well, suffice to say I'd buy a case or two of Tri-Five Chevies before sinking a nickel into that! Still, if either were to be produced, I wouldn't gripe about it, I'd just buy it if it appealed to me, or not if it didn't.

Strange that the 57 Chevy became an icon seeing as it was a car that never should have been........Chevy was in a 2 year styling cycle durring that time frame but a strike delayed things and the 57 became a hold over and the 58 became a 1 year only. Also, in 57 Ford actually outsold Chevy that year. I've always wanted to build a kit of a 57 Chevy the way GM "wanted to", you can see some of the 57/58 styling cues in the front bumper, the 57 is closer to the 58 than the 55/56, etc

While I will agree the 49 Olds would be a "nitch" kit, I think a 50 Stude would do well. If you remember when that other magazine used to do a yearly pole, the Stude was always one of the most requested and going through some back issues a while ago I noticed that most of the others on the most wanted list have been done since then.

Edited February 1, 2011 by slantasaurus

[Danno]

Facts will always trump emotions or beliefs, always has, always will.

BMMark,

Stop trying to confuse the debate with facts! We're operating quite well on emotion here. I wanna Studey! I wanna Rocket 88! Don't tell me they won't sell; I'll buy at least one each. So there!

[fumi]

While I will agree the 49 Olds would be a "nitch" kit, I think a 50 Stude would do well. If you remember when that other magazine used to do a yearly pole, the Stude was always one of the most requested and going through some back issues a while ago I noticed that most of the others on the most wanted list have been done since then.

I guess just because a kit is most requested in model magazine polls (with a small, narrow-focused and possibly biased base) does not automatically mean it will sell very well in general.

The 1958 Edsel was a perennial favourite in such polls. I don't know the actual selling figures, but when I bought it back when it was just released in Toronto, even the shopkeeper was surprised AMT would kit such a niche product.

[Joe Handley]

IIRC the people I work for now had an order for a case or two of them when those Edsels came out, I remember seeing them behind the counter and being told that they were a special order for a local Edsel Owners Club when I expressed interest for one of them.

[Danno]

There's an interesting point. When was the last time a kit manufacturer target-marketed a 1:1 club with its product (other than Revell's Goodguys series of kits ... more on that in a moment)?

For example, the still-born '50 Stude: Did the RC2 folks test-market that idea with the Studebaker Driver's Club? It seems to me they would be an instant market, and even the many members who love Studes but don't normally build models or circulate in our world would probably buy one or two just to have in their Studebilia collections. Just like the Edsel Owners Club that Joe mentioned.

While a niche group would not normally be counted among a model company's constituent base, they would be a sales factor when that model company cranks out a product near and dear to their hearts.

Moebius has a landmark Hudson kit coming soon, and the Hudson club is stoked! Members who normally don't build models are frothing at the bit to get ahold of that kit. Good thing Moebius didn't overlook them in early marketing; it should help them move sufficient plastic to assure a fiscal success. The Hudson club, however, is not a constituency to expect as customers for the Chrysler C-300 kit.

However, there are Chrysler clubs and Letter Car clubs, etc., etc.

Again, I wonder if RC2's test-marketing touched upon the Buick-Olds-Pontiac afficiandos or the Studebaker Drivers Club, etc.

PS: I touched upon the Revell-Goodguys affinity. That's a little different. The Goodguys kits were already existing tools of a genre (street rods and street machines) being co-branded with the GG name & logo. While sales to Goodguys members will certainly be beneficial to Revell, the tools were long ago amortized and the affiliation isn't a factor in supporting "new" tool, brand specific kits. So that's just a little different.

[Art Anderson]

Both of those cars look really cool The Studebaker looks amazing. So many cool cars never get produced yet we have 20 different 57 chevys. Why?

Must be on account that 57 Chevy kits just seem to sell quite well over time....or has it all been some sort of little green men dropping down out of saucer shaped objects (Hmmm, makes me wonder just WHAT ET reported when he did get home!)

Art